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Musk Demands Federal Workers Justify Jobs Or Risk Being Fired; Report: ICE Ordered To Find & Deport Unaccompanied Migrant Children; Zelenskyy Says He's Ready To Resign If It Brings Peace. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired February 24, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:05]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, good morning to you. You are live in the CNN newsroom. I'm Pamela Brown in Atlanta.

And we begin this hour with an ultimatum and a ticking clock for federal employees to answer the question, what did you do at work last week? Thousands got an e-mail over the weekend essentially telling them to justify their jobs by midnight Eastern Time. Elon Musk took to X to warn that failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. But that threat was not in the actual e-mail. Leaders at several agencies, including the FBI, are pushing back and telling staffers not to reply, at least for now.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny and Katelyn Polantz join us for more. This has certainly caused a lot of confusion. Jeff, what more can you tell us about this e-mail and the agencies that are telling their staffers, hold on a second, don't respond just yet?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Pamela. It has caused some confusion, but also the first signs of rifts in this administration with Senate-appointed cabinet secretaries instructing their staffs and employees to actually not follow the order of Elon Musk over the weekend. The e-mail dropped into inboxes late Saturday afternoon.

And ever since then, the guidance throughout this federal government, both here in Washington, of course, and across the country has been mixed as federal workers are wondering how they should, whether they should respond to this. And really, there is a long and growing list of agencies and departments instructing their employees to not respond to this because for a variety of reasons. One, the -- it's not how the chain of command works.

The several other workers have, of course, top secret or classified information. They don't want to be shared by e-mail. But this is one example from the FBI. The newly confirmed FBI Director, Kash Patel, sent -- sent out a pretty clear message to his employees in the department. It reads like this. The FBI, through the office of the director, is in charge of all of our review processes and will conduct reviews in accordance with FBI procedures. When and if information is required, he will the responses for now. Please pause any responses.

So basically saying ignore Elon Musk, do not send out that message. Now, the President responded over the weekend, giving some affirmative support to the Elon Musk plan at the Department of Government Efficiencies, but did not really weigh in on that. So we will see if he does later today when he's asked about this. But Pamela, it's really the first example really from the Department of Homeland Security to the Health and Human Services Agency to the Director of National Intelligence and several other examples of their leaders telling their employees to ignore Elon Musk, at least for now.

So the question remains, why did he send it out? And does he have the authority to actually do so from the H.R. Department, if you will, otherwise known as the Office of -- of Personnel Management?

BROWN: Yes, thanks, Jeff. And that question of whether he has the authority is now being challenged in this new lawsuit filed against DOGE, right, Katelyn Polantz?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pamela, it was only a matter of time until this end -- ended up in court before a judge. And what we saw on Sunday is a new lawsuit or an updated lawsuit in federal court in northern California, where unions are saying, hey, this seems unlawful.

The reason that they are in court, and this is just one of many, many lawsuits challenging the firing of federal workers, and they're trying to argue that the way that it's being done just isn't legal. Now, a lot of these cases have fallen flat, at least in their early stages. They haven't been able to convince judges to put a stop on Trump's ability to fire people across the federal government.

But now we do have this particular H.R. at opm.gov e-mail as part of one of the arguments. So in this case in northern California, the unions are writing to the judge asking for emergency intervention. And they are saying that nowhere in the Office of Personnel Management history has there ever been a policy, a program, a rule, a regulation that required federal workers to submit some sort of information about their work to the Office of Personnel Management.

And they're saying that because there was no notice in advance in the Federal Register, which is part of the regulations of the way the government runs, that that's why it's unlawful. And it should factor into the judge's decision whenever he does look at the possibility that perhaps federal workers shouldn't be able to be canned. But much is to come.

This judge has not looked at this yet, and there are many other cases about the firings of federal workers and even the use of this e-mail address to ping federal workers across the government. We're going to be waiting to see if there are more things like this in court. It's very likely we're going to hear a lot about this this week.

[11:05:00]

BROWN: Yes, for sure. There is so much going on in court. Katelyn Polantz, thank you for helping us understand the state of play.

And also, federal workers with USAID received their own ominous e-mail over the weekend after a judge dissolved that order, pausing the layoffs there. About 2,000 employees were laid off Sunday night. Most of the remaining full-time staff were told they've been placed on administrative leave. It's all part of the Trump administration's ongoing effort to dismantle the agency. It provides humanitarian assistance around the world.

Joining us now is Chris Milligan. He served as a Foreign Service officer at USAID for 31 years under six presidential administrations. Chris, just this morning, I got an e-mail from a USAID employee saying, I'm a tenured civil servant and veteran who received my notice last night feeling betrayed after a lifetime of public service. I know a lot of folks with the agency share that sentiment right now.

CHRIS MILLIGAN, RETIRED USAID COUNSELOR: That's correct. And first of all, there's enormous confusion out there. There's a lack of clear communication and there's mixed messages. I know some employees who are told you're essential, you have to report to work with one letter and got another letter saying you will be terminated. There were employees who were told that there'll be no terminations overseas and now they're being terminated overseas.

Even the coordination support team, which is designed to -- to ease this transition, has employees who are being terminated. So there appears to be a lack of a consistent plan and a lack of leadership on this issue. And that's creating a lot of chaos and a lot of concern among the employees.

BROWN: And these layoff workers, I mean, they will affect aid workers, right? And war zones and disaster recovery areas around the world. Some of them are in dangerous places around the world. What is your biggest concern right now?

MILLIGAN: Well, my biggest concern is what is the plan and how are we going to keep America safe? The secretary said that foreign assistance is essential for our national security. It prevents pandemics back home. It creates jobs here back home. It -- it prevents violent extremism from coming to our shores. It stems a tide of migration. When you turn that off and you fire the experts that are doing that, what's the plan for keeping America safe? What's the plan for creating jobs back at home?

BROWN: And -- and what about the direct impact on Americans who are here who help USAID in its missions, including, you know, for example, farmers like in my home state of Kentucky --

MILLIGAN: Right.

BROWN: -- who provide some of the food that's sent overseas? What is the direct impact at home in that way?

MILLIGAN: There's an immediate and direct impact. USAID purchases $2 billion worth of agricultural products from U.S. farmers. And not only that, we prevent diseases from overseas from coming back and wiping out farmers' harvests here at home. We -- USAID purchases over a billion dollars in U.S. pharmaceuticals as well. We -- USAID, through one program alone called Prosper Africa, has facilitated $130 billion worth of trade deals for American companies. So there is an -- an economic impact immediate back here at home.

BROWN: I'm curious, and I've been asking a lot of folks this question, because I think it is important to note that there are several Americans, many Americans, who are finding out some of the work that USAID did, which was appropriated by Congress, approved by Congress. But, you know, they say, look, we don't like these programs. Why is our taxpayer money going to this? Why are we supporting USAID? And even some Democrats are not sort of coming out into -- for a full, robust defense of USAID. What do you say to them?

MILLIGAN: I say that that's a fair question. And every penny that AID spends is approved by ambassadors at post and approved back in Washington under the secretary of state. If there's a new secretary of state and he has new priorities, we will -- USAID would implement them. I've worked across six presidential administrations. Priorities change. And there's a way of changing those priorities rather than gutting an entire national security agency, which then puts American lives at risk.

BROWN: Last time you were on this show, you spoke of USAID workers in other countries who were unable to get home to the U.S., including several pregnant women and a colleague with an ailing parent. Any updates there?

MILLIGAN: Employees overseas are still struggling. They're being told that they will get an offer for voluntary repatriation back to the United States. They're told if they don't take the voluntary repatriation package, they will be held financially responsible for their own return, which would cost thousands of dollars and they would face financial ruin. So I wouldn't call that a voluntary repatriation.

I know that some employees are still having difficulty accessing education for their children and accessing health care. The USAID payment system remains frozen by the department. And so money can't flow to provide the services and needs that our employees overseas require.

BROWN: Chris Milligan, thank you for coming on.

MILLIGAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Also this morning, Reuters is reporting the Trump administration is directing ICE agents to find and deport thousands of unaccompanied migrant children. Just last week, the President reassigned a top immigration official after the rate of arrests and deportations slowed. CNN's Priscilla Alvarez, joins us now. What more are you learning about this, Priscilla?

[11:10:14]

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, it's been whiplash for the legal service providers who are representing and also assisting unaccompanied migrant children. These are children who arrived to the United States-Mexico border without their parents. They have been put in the system and they have been put in the custody of Health and Human Services, then later released to sponsors.

Now, what happens in that process and the reason I mention it is that when they are released, they have to go to their immigration court hearings like anyone else that is released. Well, this memo outlines ways to target unaccompanied children, starting by requiring them to appear in immigration court, then later categorizing them as a flight risk, public safety, or border security.

Now, this is all part of a concerted effort by the Trump administration to locate unaccompanied children that they say are missing. This is something we hear often from White House border czar, Tom Homan. Now, in talking to experts, they say that, yes, there are some children that unfortunately may be exploited after they cross into the United States.

There are others, however, who may not have gone to immigration court, but they are OK there with sponsors. This is, again, all an effort to find what they call the missing children in a way to account for them. Again, the reason, or rather by having them show up to immigration court if they missed a hearing before.

But the reason that it's also whiplash for a lot of those that are serving them is because last week there was another memo, and that memo had cut off legal services to unaccompanied children. And that quickly prompted some confusion and chaos because these children were then potentially expected to show up to court by themselves, to not have legal representation with them. Well, that memo has since been reversed.

But you can see with all of this that it has led to a lot of confusion, that it has prompted concern not only among the legal service providers, but also the sponsors. Those can be relatives or family friends that are caring for these children in an environment where even if this is an attempt to just account for these children, it can certainly be one that stokes a lot of fear among those who are caring for them. Pamela?

BROWN: Priscilla Alvarez, thank you so much.

And still ahead this hour, President Trump and Emmanuel Macron meet at the White House. Can the French president help repair the rift between Trump and Ukraine's president as that country marks three years of war with Russia? I'll speak with the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who is in Kyiv, next.

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[11:17:22]

BROWN: Just minutes ago, French President Emmanuel Macron said he held a, quote, perfect G7 call alongside President Trump. Macron joined Trump in the Oval Office for the virtual meeting and called their talks very friendly. Macron will return to the White House soon for a high-stakes mission to revive the Trump administration's unraveling support of Ukraine and tell Trump to not be weak in dealing with Vladimir Putin. Macron's visit comes as other leaders from Europe and Canada arrive in Kyiv to mark a grim milestone.

Russia launched its illegal invasion of Ukraine three years ago today. But the growing rift between Trump and Ukraine's president is overshadowing today's show of solidarity -- solidarity. Trump has accused Volodymyr Zelenskyy of being a dictator and even starting the war. CNN's Alex Marquardt joins us now. Alex, how important is Macron's visit to the White House today?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It -- it is critical, Pamela. This is the beginning of what could be called a diplomatic counteroffensive by the Europeans amid these fears that the Ukrainians and the Europeans are being pushed aside in these discussions over a Ukraine-Russia peace deal.

This is the beginning of a flurry of meetings this week. We have Macron today, the British prime minister later this week, a number of other engagements between U.S. and -- and European officials. And Macron's task today is going to be telling Trump to not give in to Vladimir Putin.

There have been these accusations of concessions already being given by the Trump administration to the Russians of continuing to send military aid, humanitarian aid, economic aid to the Ukrainians and this big question over security guarantees, what the U.S. can offer in terms of guarantees to the Ukrainians. Now, the Europeans are putting essentially their best foot forward with Macron. He is certainly among the European leaders who Trump likes the most.

Macron knows how to flatter and please Donald Trump. We saw that invitation to the reopening of the Notre Dame Cathedral just a few months ago, in which Trump was essentially treated like a -- a sitting president. But, Pamela, this is a critical moment, the third anniversary, as you note, of this war that began on February 24th, 2022.

I was there on the ground in -- in southern Ukraine. There was a tremendous amount of fear. And since those early days, there has been just an extraordinary amount of damage done to that southern city, Mariupol, as well as to the rest of the country. And this fourth year of the war is arguably going to be its most consequential since the war began. Major questions now over this minerals deal that the U.S. is trying to strike with Ukraine.

Ukraine pushing for those guarantees to be part of this deal that could be on -- on the -- on the scale of hundreds of billions of dollars. But the U.S. pushing back on that. Here's what the national security adviser, Mike Waltz, had to say earlier today.

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[11:20:07] MIKE WALTZ, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Let's grow together in an economic partnership. And, of course, the U.S. would protect our assets for which we are invested in. This could mean trillions, not only for the Ukrainian people, but for us and for stability for the region. And that economic investment is one of the best security guarantees that Ukraine could hope for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: So, Mike Waltz saying there that the U.S. involvement with Ukraine is essentially guaranteed. But what the Ukrainians and Europeans want to see is a military offer from the United States. We've heard the Brits and the French talking about some 30,000 European troops on the ground for Ukraine as peacekeepers. We heard Donald Trump saying, I don't want to send U.S. troops into Ukraine. So what could that assistance look like, whether it's intelligence, air support or -- or -- or something else? That is going to be the big task for President Macron today. Pamela?

BROWN: Alex, thank you so much. Let's con -- continue this discussion with former Kyiv -- is he -- from Kyiv, I should say, is the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, John Herbst, serving under former President George W. Bush. He is now senior director of the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center.

Ambassador, thank you for coming on. So the French president is at the White House today. The British prime minister is due Thursday. How much influence do they bring into these meetings?

JOHN E. HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: I think they can make a real contribution to ensuring that the Trump administration stays on the course that they outlined weeks before the inauguration to establish a stable peace requiring significant compromises, both from Ukraine and from Russia. We've had a very bad 12 or so days where the Trump administration seemed to be beating up on the victim, Ukraine. But they faced some real pushback from conservative media, from the Europeans, and even indirectly from Republican lawmakers who pointed out all the errors and statements made by the President.

BROWN: What is the message that you would like President Macron to really drive home today?

HERBST: Well, the Europeans have already sent a message with the two meetings that Macron convened in Paris at the beginning of the week, where he and Starmer, the British PM, and other European leaders have put together at least the first idea for putting European troops on the ground, as President Trump suggested as part of his plan to establish a durable peace. So this gives something for -- for President Trump to cling to, or rather to embrace, as he then goes to Putin and say, you've shown no interest in compromise. Let's see you compromise.

BROWN: President Zelenskyy surprised a lot of people. You probably know this. You're in Kyiv right now. When he said for the first time, by the way, that he was willing to resign his presidency if it brings peace to Ukraine. Let's listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): If it's about peace in Ukraine and you really want me to leave my position, I am ready to do that. Secondly, I can exchange it for NATO if there is such an opportunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Today, Trump's national security advisor is repeating the administration's opposition to Ukraine being admitted to NATO. What do you make of Zelenskyy's offer there to resign?

HERBST: I think that this is an effort by Zelenskyy to deal with the very bad information coming from some people who support President Trump, who are clueless, naive about the danger that Russia poses to the United States, who claim that Zelenskyy is continuing this war because it keeps him in power. Now, that's just nonsense. And this is a dramatic way for Zelenskyy to want to score that.

BROWN: What do you say to those who might argue that this is just Donald Trump's way of trying to make a deal? He knows Vladimir Putin, and he is trying to appeal to his ego rather than poke the bear in order to get him to come to the table for a peace deal, and that this strategy could ultimately end this war. What do you say to that?

HERBST: I don't rule that out, meaning that that's what President Trump is trying to do. Because we saw a similar approach to Kim Jong- un during the first term, the dictator in North Korea. But as we know, that effort did not succeed, and so President Trump correctly walked away. So this may be what President Trump is trying to do, and I hope that it is. But it's not tactically the best way to handle this. Putin has no desire to have a real ceasefire now.

He wants to capture more Ukrainian territory. He wants to drive Ukrainian forces out of the Kursk Oblast, Russian territory. Whereas President Trump wants to get a quick peace deal, but a durable peace deal, meaning that Putin does not attack Ukraine again. So I think what President Trump will learn is that the soft words are not going to move Putin to actually negotiate in a serious way.

BROWN: What would move him to negotiate in a serious way?

HERBST: Well, I think President Trump actually made that clear in his first few days as president, second term, when he said Putin is the obstacle to peace, and we need to turn up the screws with economic pressure. And then, of course, Vice President Vance, in his interview with the "Wall Street Journal," I don't know, 10 or so days ago, 12 days ago, said that maybe we need to not just increase economic pressure, but even military pressure on -- on Ukraine -- on Russia -- on Russia. And that would be the smart way to proceed.

[11:25:19]

BROWN: What is the sentiment there? I mean, you're there in Kyiv. Today marks three years of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the war there that has taken so many lives. Tell us what it's like there.

HERBST: Well -- well, I arrived on the train with many of the European leaders and also others who were here for a big conference on the war put on by the Yes Foundation. And the mood is a little bit grim because people are concerned that maybe all those pleasant words to Putin and the sharp criticism of means that President Trump will abandon the concept of attaining a just, durable peace, right, by insisting on only Ukrainian concessions.

I think that's probably not the right way to understand this, but this is very much on people's minds. But there are others who are here, including, for example, former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who believes that Trump is, you know, trying to sweet talk Putin, and Trump is going to insist on conditions to get a durable peace.

BROWN: All right. We will see how it all plays out. Ambassador, thank you for your time.

HERBST: My pleasure. Thank you.

BROWN: And still ahead this hour, as Elon Musk and his government efficiency department gut the federal workforce, some conservative priorities could be on the chopping block as well. I'll speak with the Republican co-chair of the DOGE Caucus up next.

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