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Rep. Jake Auchincloss (D-MA), Is Interviewed About Trump Greets Ukraine's Zelenskyy At The White House. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 28, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:14]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, good morning to you. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Any moment, President Trump will be welcoming Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to the White House for a critical meeting at a pivotal time.

They are expected to sign an agreement on Ukraine's natural resources. And Zelenskyy, in exchange, will try to mine some security guarantees from Washington. This follows a week of tense exchanges with Trump blaming Zelenskyy for Russia's invasion and even calling him a dictator repeatedly.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House. Jeff, just lay out how important, how high the stakes are for this meeting for both leaders.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, certainly very high stakes for both leaders. An extraordinary turnaround from what we heard President Trump really for several weeks, diminishing, belittling, questioning the authority of Volodymyr Zelenskyy. And now he is indeed coming here to the White House this hour for a sit-down meeting, as well as a press conference after that, all to sign some type of an agreement, a deal between the two countries that the President hopes will lead to a broader peace deal with Russia.

But it is an extraordinary pivot we've seen, sort of day by day, but yesterday made clear. As Donald Trump was answering questions and sitting alongside the British prime minister, he did not echo or repeat his words of a dictator describing as Zelenskyy or saying it's someone who has not had free elections and his low poll numbers. He said he respected him, but he also made clear time is running short here to make a deal.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think we're going to have a very successful peace, and I think it's going to be a long- lasting peace. And I think it's going to happen hopefully quickly. If it doesn't happen quickly, it may not happen at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZELENY: Those words, very important. If it doesn't happen quickly, it may not happen at all. So this is the first step, signing a deal with Ukraine, but then also opening the door to a broader conversation with Vladimir Putin. And Pamela, we cannot really understate how swift of a turnaround this has been, not only in U.S. foreign policy, resetting the relationship with Russia, but this is something that had to happen first.

But so many eyes will be on the dynamics inside the Oval Office between Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Donald Trump as he's in the second month of his second term. You'll remember the history between them, of course, dates so far back when Donald Trump was in office the first time around, that phone call that actually ended up leading to his first impeachment for Donald Trump. So their history is long. We will see how their relationship is here. But both men have an imperative to sign and make a deal today.

BROWN: Jeff, please stand by. We're going to bring you back with our panel in just a minute as we wait and watch there at the White House for President Zelenskyy to arrive and meet with President Trump.

Let's discuss with Democratic Congressman Jake Auchincloss of Massachusetts. He is a member of the Congressional Ukrainian Caucus. Congressman, thank you so much for being here. I'll ask you the same question I asked Jeff. How do you see this meeting today and -- and the stakes of it?

REP. JAKE AUCHINCLOSS (D-MA): Trump's putting the cart before the horse in this meeting. Economic development deals with developing nations for mineral extraction and processing are a good idea. And in fact, in the pages of CNN, I advocated a few years ago that the United States should be doing that with Afghanistan, which also has unexplored, though potentially high value and high volume minerals.

What Trump doesn't understand, though, is that security must precede mineral extraction and processing, not be a postscript to it. It costs tens of billions of dollars to explore, to extract, and especially, which is most valuable, to process any of the minerals or rare earth elements that he is describing. What kind of investors are going to put that money to work when they see that Donald Trump is weak, that he is a sycophant to Vladimir Putin, and that he is more interested in partitioning Ukraine than he is in protecting Ukraine.

If Trump were intelligent, what he would be doing is working with our European allies to get Ukraine as a member of the European Union and afforded the protections of Article 42.7 under the Lisbon Treaty, where they would actually have security guarantees for its eastern border and freedom of navigation in the Black Sea.

BROWN: And as we know, Trump has not endorsed the idea of security guarantees. He has said that he thinks that should fall to European allies. What do you say to that?

AUCHINCLOSS: Well, as I said, the onus of defense actually should be on Europe. I don't disagree with that premise. I have always said that Ukraine should be headed towards accession to the European Union. And what people don't realize is that the European Union has its own collective defense treaty, Article 42.7, the Lisbon Treaty, that calls for collective defense in the event of emergency. France, for example, has invoked it. And the United States can help backstop and support the European Union's collective defense.

[11:05:16]

But that is not the same thing as NATO, where I actually don't think Ukraine and I've never said that Ukraine should have imminent accession to NATO. So there is a pathway here that puts Europe rightfully in the driver's seat for Ukraine's security, but that prevents the United States from -- from selling out our European allies and thinking that it makes us look tough on the world stage. It doesn't. Xi Jinping, the Ayatollah in Iran, both of whom are close allies to Russia, are looking at this and saying, man, this President can be bought and sold cheaply.

BROWN: And you mentioned Trump and Putin. Trump has been lavishing praise on Putin, calling him a very smart guy. Trump is now saying that Putin will keep his word if a peace deal is reached. I want to listen to that.

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TRUMP: I think he'll keep his word. I think -- I think he's -- I've spoken to him. I've known him for a long time now, you know. We had -- we had to go through the Russian hoax together. That was not a good thing. It's not fair. That was a rigged deal and had nothing to do with Russia. I don't believe he's going to violate his word. I don't think he'll be back. When we make a deal, I think the deal's going to hold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Do you trust Vladimir Putin to keep his word?

AUCHINCLOSS: No. And I'm hearing echoes of George W. Bush saying, I looked into his eyes and I saw his soul. And this is someone that the United States can partner with. Yes, that preceded two decades of Russia working with China and Iran to undermine global security and then to attack its neighbors in violation of the Pax Americana.

So no, I don't trust Vladimir Putin. Clearly, Donald Trump has some bromance with this dictator in the Kremlin, but it's not furthering the security interests of the United States or our allies. What Trump needs to understand is Putin, Xi Jinping, the Ayatollah, the North Koreans, they understand one language only. That is the language of strength. And the United States is stronger, standing with our Ukrainian and European and Israeli and Taiwanese allies and presenting a united front. Right now, he looks weak.

BROWN: So what do you think should be done then to end the war in Ukraine? You're on the Ukraine caucus, like how do you get Russia to stop its illegal invasion of Ukraine? Of course, Trump would argue, you know, he's trying -- he's trying to achieve that goal. And of course, there are disagreements of how that's playing out and whether he will get that end result. Even he has expressed doubt. But what would your plan be to end the war?

AUCHINCLOSS: First, improve our leverage at the negotiating table by making clear we are going to be providing sustained military and economic support to Ukraine. There's a narrative that the Russians are winning the war in the Donbas. That is not true. They are sacrificing thousands of casualties for every square kilometer gained. They have double-digit inflation back home. They have shortages of materiel and manpower, both on the front lines and in the rear.

They are going to have a very hard time sustaining that war effort over the next 18 months, particularly as oil, gas, and semiconductor sanctions truly undermine their war-making capacity. So be very clear that Western backing for Ukraine militarily is not going anywhere.

Secondly, sustain the economic lifeline to Ukraine through the G7 $50 billion loan that was underwritten with Russian frozen assets. And be very clear to Vladimir Putin, those $300 billion that are in Brussels or New York City, they're not coming back without a strong deal.

And then finally, yes, negotiate, but Ukraine needs to be centered at the table, centered at the table, excuse me. And we need to be clear that we need security guarantees for the eastern border through the European Union and the Lisbon Treaty. We need freedom of navigation in the Black Sea. And we need to see Russian declarations of respect for Ukrainian sovereignty and its ability to develop its own economy.

BROWN: Congressman Auchincloss, thank you so much.

I'm joined now by CNN chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour. So what do you make of this moment, Christiane?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Look, this is Zelenskyy's make or break moment in the three years of the war. We've just passed the three-year anniversary this -- this week. And this is the moment when the current president of the United States really does hold a huge amount of -- of power over how this war is going to go, the survival of Ukraine as a democratic, sovereign, and independent state. And that's why it is so unbelievably important.

You really cannot overestimate what Zelenskyy has to try to make happen in his meeting today. There is a huge amount of tension and friction, as we've been reporting, over not just the last week, but the last several weeks. We saw it in Munich when I was there. It just started to unravel when the United States, J.D. Vance, the Vice President, started to say that Russia external forces weren't the big threat and -- and didn't talk about Ukraine or security at the security conference.

[11:10:17]

But this week, you've seen President Macron. You've seen Prime Minister Starmer. And you've heard a little bit more from President Trump as to what he believes should be the result, that Ukraine should be whole and safe. But the key is, as your previous congressman and other guests have said, there has to be some kind of security guarantee. It is clear that the United States will not be putting boots on the ground. It is clear that a NATO force will not be there as peacekeepers. But the European forces will need what they call a backstop. A backstop is not just some little tripwire, not just some binoculars looking. It is the might of the only government that has this wherewithal, and that is the United States, to help in the air, to help potentially, you know, monitor the air, make sure that there's absolutely no violation by the Russians, and to make a commitment to -- to help allies should the Russians probe and try to attack any of those allies that are patrolling any ceasefire.

This is the most important thing. I have covered many wars and peace and enforcements, many, many, many. I've covered them with U.S. peacekeepers, European peacekeepers, NATO peacekeepers. There always has to be a security guarantee. And -- and I think that most people believe that an economic guarantee, i.e. a mineral deal or business presence, will not be the security guarantee that -- that Ukraine needs. This is Volodymyr Zelenskyy's big, big job today.

One other thing to be -- to be quite clear about, it was President Trump in his first term who did provide eventually lethal weaponry to the Ukrainians. It had been prevented by the previous administration of Obama, and they did provide javelins. This actually did have a major impact in the initial weeks of the war.

So, President Trump can see for himself that even that amount, small amounts, but of important weaponry to reinforce Ukrainian forces, not NATO forces, Ukrainian forces, and allow them to fight their own war, it worked. And so, Zelenskyy will be obviously also making a massive plea to continue American military help, because as Congressman Auchincloss said, there needs to be leverage in order to go to a negotiation.

And if Ukraine keeps being delegitimized by President Trump, that's not going to work very well at a negotiating table.

[11:12:54]

BROWN: Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much for your thoughts, analysis, given all that you have covered in your career. You talk about how important this meeting is. We are waiting, we are watching, and we'll be back in just a moment. Be sure to stay with us.

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BROWN: At any moment, we expect President Trump to greet Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelenskyy at the White House. This is a huge meeting for both men, a lot on the table. One of those things on the table, of course, is this mineral deal. I've got a panelist here and a reporter as an analyst with me. Alex Marquardt to start with you, you have this new reporting about this -- this deal on minerals and -- and maybe the -- the lack of natural resources potentially that could be in Ukraine, right?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So this --this deal that is being unveiled today is essentially an agreement to create a -- a jointly operated fund by the two countries. But it really lacks, Pamela, specifics on what minerals we're about, where they are, how many they could expect to eventually extract.

The -- the U.S. President today is certainly going to claim this as a win, a repayment for the tens and hundreds of billions of dollars. He says it's actually just over 100 billion dollars worth of aid that -- that has gone to Ukraine over the years. But in speaking with current Trump administration officials, Biden officials and -- and experts, what is clear is how vague the sense is of what is -- is actually out there.

This was a deal that was proposed also to the Biden administration last year. I was told that they essentially passed on it because of the impracticality of going out and mining these -- these various minerals. One expert I spoke with highlighted the fact that of the rare earth minerals, which President Trump has talked about so much, Ukraine actually has zero proven reserves of rare earth minerals.

Now, there are all kinds of other critical minerals. Many of them, I'm told, lie in the eastern part of the country, which, of course, is very contested area. It's war-torn area. It's a Russian occupied area. And then minerals that are elsewhere in -- in safer areas actually don't amount to all that much compared to what the rest of the world has. So what we're going to see today is a deal that both sides will claim as -- as good for each of their countries. But it really is lacking in specifics about what is expected to come in the years that follow, because it will take years to extract this.

[11:20:00]

BROWN: Nick Paton Walsh, to bring you in, what is the feeling there on the ground in Kyiv where you are about this meeting here at the White House?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: It's really important to stress exactly how much of daily life here hinges on what will happen in the White House in the next few hours or so. One fact that's lost, really, is since Donald Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator 10 days ago, 47 Ukrainian civilians have lost their lives and 222 have been injured by Russian strikes. And that's a fairly average toll, one we've done through looking through official statements. And that, I think, brings home just how critical this is to daily life here.

Ultimately, the rare earth minerals deal, which is a bit of a fudge, to be honest. It leaves a lot of the hard work for later agreements. It's about trying to get over the hurdle in relationships, making sure that Donald Trump feels he gets some sort of reimbursement victory, although it isn't really phrased that way in the document that we saw current as of Wednesday morning.

But Zelenskyy also gets to try and repair that personal relationship. This is what it all really rests upon. Can he make Donald Trump feel that he and the cause of Ukraine is one that he feels an affinity with, that he likes? And we've seen Emmanuel Macron of France, Keir Starmer of the United Kingdom deeply reach into their reserves of personal charm to try and win Donald Trump around to the cause of European security and U.S. backing for it.

And we also know that Zelenskyy will, he said himself, ask directly of Donald Trump if U.S. aid will continue at the same pace and way that it did under the Biden administration. This is a really make or break moment meeting. It looks like the road has been nicely paved for a procession between the two men.

And indeed, when Donald Trump was asked if he stood by his comments or apologized for his comments about Zelenskyy being dictator, he sort of laughed off the consequences of remarks from the seal of the President of the United States and said that he can't believe he'd said that. Clearly, I think he feels now the deal potentially is underway. He would like to see that relationship improve.

But we know from the whiplash of the past two to three weeks, things can change hour by hour in all of this. And also, too, I think there are many here in Ukraine concerned that the next time maybe Donald Trump speaks to the Kremlin head, that may to drag him further back towards the geopolitical interests of Moscow. But this is a key meeting for Zelenskyy, possibly the most consequential since the start of the war moment for his presidency, where he stood here in central Kyiv and reportedly told the Biden administration that he didn't need a ride out of here. He needed ammo.

This is what many Ukrainians are waiting for. But you have to remember that two things are vital about this. One, if it goes well, it simply puts Ukraine back where it was six weeks ago into a war where it's losing slowly on the front lines, experiencing itself pretty bad casualties daily. And we mentioned the civilian toll as well. But also, two, for Zelenskyy, there is some victory here.

He's beating Vladimir Putin into the White House to meet Donald Trump in his second term. That is key. And I think many in Kyiv will take some kind of consolation from that. But you have to remember, for people living through drone strikes, over 200 drones launched by Russia against Ukraine just last night alone. We've had nearly 3,000 since the last two weeks or so. They see this sort of disruption, this sort of chaos in an alliance that was so key to their mere survival.

BROWN: All right, I'm going to cut in right now because we are seeing them meet. We are seeing Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the president of Ukraine, and President Trump meet there at the White House before their bilateral meeting and then after a press conference. These men have quite a storied history over the years, including his first administration with the phone call with Zelenskyy leading to his impeachment, and now the Ukraine war and this potential minerals deal, and Volodymyr Zelensky just trying to save his country. David Sanger, to bring you in, how are you viewing this meeting?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you know, I think the central question that Zelenskyy has to go resolve as he walks into the Oval Office right now with the president is, which side of this war is Donald Trump on? The past few weeks, the President has suggested that his sympathies really lie with the Russians. You saw that in his refusal to say that it was Russian aggression that began the war. You saw in the discussions that they had in Saudi Arabia, where there was talk about a broader economic relationship with Russia, which would mean undoing the sanctions that were imposed here.

So if you're President Zelenskyy, you've got to think, gee, my biggest ally is about to go over to the other side here. And that's what he's trying to pull him back from. It's also what President Macron of France and Prime Minister Starmer of Britain were trying to figure out and to prevent in their meetings in recent days.

[11:25:03]

And I'm not sure at the end of this whether we'll know the answer to that question. I think what we were out and to prevent in their meetings in recent days. And I'm not sure at the end of this whether we'll know the answer to that question. I think what we will know is that this deal has been signed, as Alex and others have all noted here, there's nothing very specific in it. The $500 billion requirement that was in the agreement a few weeks ago is gone. It kicks down the road all of the specifics.

It does enable President Trump to stand up and say, I've achieved what I need to achieve and I can now back the Ukrainians. But I'm not sure President Zelenskyy will actually trust that.

BROWN: All right. We shall see. They are going in now for this bilateral meeting. Hopefully, we'll be brought into the room soon and -- and they will take some questions. We shall see. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

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