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Trump Cabinet Clashed With Musk In Explosive Meeting; Trump Urges Republicans To Unite And Back GOP Spending Plan; Dems Seek To Use Musk's Unpopularity To Connect with Voters; Investigators: Gene Hackman, Wife Died Of Natural Causes; Ukraine: Russian Strikes Kill At Least 38 & Dozens Injured; Trump: Anybody In Putin's Position Would Be Bombarding Ukraine; Trump: If NATO Doesn't Pay, "I'm Not Going To Defend Them"; U.S. & Ukrainian Officials To Meet Next Week In Saudi Arabia; Texas And New Mexico Measles Outbreak Surpasses 200 Cases. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired March 08, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:19]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jessica Dean in New York.

President Donald Trump now threatening even more tariffs on Canada in the latest move during a dizzying week that saw reversals on several fronts. And it comes amid signs of possible fractures within the administration. "The New York Times" reporting on explosive arguments between Elon Musk and Trump officials in the Cabinet room of the White House.

Our Betsy Klein is joining us now from West Palm Beach, Florida.

Betsy, tell us more about this clash and what the president is saying about it.

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Yes, Jessica, a closed door airing of grievances at the White House this week as President Trump in this explosive meeting convened his Cabinet and Elon Musk. Now, it marked a major moment for the Department of Government Efficiency known as DOGE, led by Musk, who has wielded at times a literal and figurative chainsaw when it comes to slashing federal spending.

Now, according to "The New York Times," Musk first got into it with Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who "The Times" reports became incensed as Musk chided him for not doing enough to slash State Department workforce and then took aim at Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, who went after Musk for DOGE's attempts to fire air traffic controllers, which, of course we should note, comes after some of those major plane crashes.

Now, all of this President Trump making clear in this meeting that there are some limits he is willing to put on Musk and DOGE and also making clear that Cabinet secretaries have the ultimate say over their department or agency staffing levels. But asked about this "New York Times" reporting, the president just downplayed any tensions. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Some details have come out about your Cabinet meeting with Elon Musk and some clashes potentially between Secretary Rubio and Secretary Duffy.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No clash. I was there. You're just a troublemaker. And you're not supposed to be asking that question because we're talking about the World Cup.

GUTIERREZ: But --

TRUMP: Elon gets along great with Marco and they're both doing a fantastic job. There is no clash.

GUTIERREZ: Who has more authority, Elon Musk or your Cabinet secretaries?

TRUMP: Any other questions?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KLEIN: No clash, the president says. But an extraordinary moment among some of his top allies. And we should note, Jessica, that Elon Musk was amongst the very small group of top advisers traveling here to Palm Beach with President Trump this weekend.

DEAN: All right. Betsy Klein in Palm Beach with the very latest for us. Thank you so much for that. Meantime, House Republicans and Speaker Mike Johnson have a new plan to avoid a government shutdown, which could happen on Friday with a bill to fund federal spending through the end of September. It would also give Republican leaders time to steer President Trump's agenda through Congress throughout the summer. However, Democrats are already blasting the stopgap funding bill, calling it a slush fund.

Julia Benbrook is joining us now from Washington with more on this.

Julia, what happens now?

JULIA BENBROOK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, House Speaker Mike Johnson is outlining a stopgap measure known as a continuing resolution that would keep the government funded until September 30th, but it's still unclear if he'll be able to rally the support needed to pass this. And he's working against a fast approaching deadline. That potential government shutdown is looming on Friday, March 14th.

Now, he does have the support of President Donald Trump, who actually took to social media posting on Truth Social just a couple of hours ago, saying, quote, "The House and Senate have put together, under the circumstances, a very good funding bill. All Republicans should vote," in parentheses, "please," in all caps, "yes next week."

Now, Republicans are hoping that that is enough to get their party on board because Johnson leads with a very slim majority, and some of these members have already expressed concerns about the stopgap measure. And then the Democratic leader in the House, Hakeem Jeffries, has said that he opposes this measure and was warning Johnson that he may have to do this alone.

Jeffries would prefer a more long-term negotiated bill because they say that this stopgap measure doesn't include some critical language that would allow their party to keep Trump in check in courts, if needed. Here's what Johnson had to say about the chances of this bill passing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I believe we'll pass it along party lines, but I think every Democrat should vote for this CR. It is a fundamental responsibility we have to fund the government, and a clean CR with a few minor anomalies is not something that they should vote against. So we'll see what they do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BENBROOK: Now, the text of this bill is 99 pages long. We do expect Johnson to bring it to the floor for a vote in just a couple of days. Tuesday is when that is expected.

[16:05:01]

But then, of course, it would need to pass in the Senate. And if it gets there just right ahead of this government funding deadline, it puts a lot of pressure on the members in that chamber from both parties to avoid a shutdown -- Jessica.

DEAN: All right. Julia Benbrook with the latest on that. Thanks for that reporting.

And joining us now, two journalists who cover the White House, Meridith McGraw for the "Wall Street Journal." She's also the author of "Trump in Exile." And Tyler Pager of "The New York Times." He's the author of the upcoming book, "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and Democrats Lost America." That's coming out in July.

Good to have both of you with us this afternoon. I want to start first with that Cabinet meeting that happened. "The New York Times" reporting it as an explosive meeting. And, Meredith, I think there's just been a constant question since Trump took office again about factions, about any sort of blowup between Elon Musk and Trump or Elon Musk and the Cabinet secretaries. What are you hearing about all of that?

MEREDITH MCGRAW, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, the White House has tried to downplay any sort of tension between Elon Musk and Cabinet members or even President Trump. But "The New York Times" reporting was accurate. It was a very contentious meeting that was held at the White House between Cabinet officials. Some were absent and weren't there because they had other things going on. But a real clash unfolded in particular between Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Elon Musk. And we know for many weeks that Cabinet officials there's been this

long simmering frustration with some of the drastic cuts that Elon Musk and DOGE has been making that perhaps undermine some of the own power and abilities that these Cabinet secretaries should have to, you know, do their own work and their own agencies. And so President Trump said that this was an opportunity for them to come together to hash things out. He denied that there was any sort of tension between them, but it really seemed to boil over this week.

DEAN: Yes, and I do want to read a part from that piece where Musk reportedly went after Secretary of State Marco Rubio, quote, "He told Mr. Rubio he was, quote, 'good on TV' with the clear subtext being that he was not good for much else." Meanwhile, quote, "The president set back in his chair, arms folded as if he were watching a tennis match."

Tyler, eventually the president did reportedly intervene and set some limits on Musk. He talked about using a scalpel instead of a hatchet when it came to these cuts, and also has tried to make it clear that it's the secretaries who will be running their agencies, with Musk kind of advising. But do you think that is actually what's going on? Is this any sort of turning point for Musk's influence?

TYLER PAGER, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I mean, it's a great question. And I think, as we have learned with the Trump administration, you never fully know exactly what one week brings and what happens the next. I mean, just a few weeks ago, we saw President Trump post on social media that he wanted Elon Musk to be more aggressive in his efforts. And what followed suit from that was that e-mail sent to all federal employees about five things they did in the past week.

Now we're seeing Cabinet officials expressing their frustration in private with Musk in front of the president and the president, as you noted, trying to impose or somewhat rein in Elon Musk's efforts to overhaul the federal government. That's where we are right now. We'll see what unfolds in the coming weeks.

But it is clear this is, you know, really a key moment in which the president is as at least trying or attempting to somewhat limit the unfettered influence Elon Musk has had across the administration.

DEAN: Yes. And, Meredith, when it comes to Musk, we have those polls from February that show that he's not very popular among the American people. What is the sense you get of how the president and his team view him? Do they view him as like a political heat shield in any sort of way? Or, you know, again, is it as clear as he likes to say publicly that he and Musk are still quite aligned?

MCGRAW: Well, from what we see unfold at the White House every day, it seems like President Trump and Elon Musk are getting along just fine, despite some of the criticisms that we've seen of Musk. I know just the other night they were joking around in the Oval Office. Musk flew down with Trump on Air Force One to Palm Beach, and he's with him this weekend. And they have had a really close relationship. But at the same time, Elon Musk really has become a boogeyman,

especially for Democrats who see him as a real political target. We've already seen how Democrats are launching ads that feature Elon Musk and images of him with the chainsaw, and they really see that Republicans might be vulnerable when it comes to Elon Musk and some of the cuts that they're making. Even though there is bipartisan support for reining in federal spending, they really see that Elon Musk could be a potential political target.

[16:10:06]

DEAN: Yes, and I do. We're going to talk about that in the next segment, which you guys are going to stick around for, because I do want to get into kind of how the Democrats might be trying to use this in their favor.

But before we do that, Tyler, we also got more news about the tariffs this week. And we continue to just see this whiplash. They're on, they're off. They're this, they're that. FOX Business asked the president about the uncertainty that it's causing for people in business. I want to play that clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX BUSINESS HOST: CEOs want to see predictability. They say, look, I have to speak with shareholders. I've got to make plans for Capex spending. I can't if it's 20 percent one day and then it's off for a month and it's 25 percent.

TRUMP: Yes.

BARTIROMO: So can you give us a sense of whether or not we are going to get clarity for the business community?

TRUMP: Well, I think so. But, you know, the tariffs could go up as time goes by and they may go up. And you know, I don't know if it's predictability. I think that --

BARTIROMO: So that's not clarity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Tyler, that's Maria Bartiromo, of course, you know, has been quite supportive of President Trump. But she really just said it right there. That's not clarity for a lot of people in the business community. Do you think that's something that the president is paying attention to, that feedback from people, you know, you're talking about even a lot of billionaires that maybe did support him who are -- who are saying, it's hard to do business in this environment?

PAGER: Yes, absolutely. I think this is something that not just President Trump is concerned about, but Republicans across the spectrum are and, you know, Democrats very eager to criticize the president on this point. But one of the things we know that the president pays attention to is the stock market. And we've seen the volatility that his tariff policy has caused in the

stock market. And that is, you know, something that the president promised when he was running for, you know, over the last year was, you know, big economic growth, a booming stock market.

And so the immediate reaction and the uncertainty and the volatility that we're seeing in the market is definitely something the president and his allies are keeping an eye on. And so I think that is something, I mean, even someone, as you said, from FOX News, sort of pressing him and prodding him to try to say, I'm going to give the market some certainty, clearly unsuccessful there from Maria. But it is a point of concern and contention even within some of the president's most supportive allies.

DEAN: Yes. And Meredith, what are you hearing on that front, from, again, like a lot of these people that are pro-Trump, maybe pro- Republican, pro-business, but they are saying this is a tough environment because we never know day to day what we're dealing with here, we can't plan ahead?

MCGRAW: Well, we know that the stock markets hate uncertainty. And just over the past week, it was hard to tell what was going to come next. It was constant whiplash over the rollout of these tariffs. And it came in sort of an ad hoc fashion with Commerce Secretary Lutnick going on television, sometimes getting ahead of the president in the announcement. We know the automakers had calls with the president this week to try to get him to reconsider the tariffs on Canada.

And just the constant whiplash is unfolding in the stock markets, and it's impacting people's portfolios. And we know, like Tyler said, Trump watches the stock market carefully. And Republicans and business leaders are dealing with this moment of real uncertainty with what exactly he's doing with these tariffs.

DEAN: Yes. And because, Meredith, he did say this week, he was asked about that. He's like I'm not even looking at the stock market. But that sounds like something he's saying publicly while privately that's the opposite.

MCGRAW: And he said something similar in his Joint Address to Congress. He talked about there being a, you know, I think disturbance was the word that he used with some of the policies that they're rolling out. So they're trying to say that there could be some short- term pain for long-term gain for America. But at the same time, the numbers that you're seeing really reflect some, you know, uncertainty is the real word about what their plan here is.

DEAN: Yes. All right, everyone, stand by. We're going to discuss more when we come back, including a look at the Democrats' playbook. What's potentially working for them, what's not. We'll have that on the other side.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:18:51]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Choose your character.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: The question is, will that connect with voters? We're back with our panel now. The Democratic Party still struggling to find the best way forward, the best way to connect with frustrated voters. Some social media users calling that video there a little cringe. Maybe they're going to find something with their frustration over billionaire Elon Musk. They've been targeting him in political ads.

Tyler, where are the Democrats on all of this? Because they clearly have not found a unified way forward. But they're trying to find something, anything that's going to work.

PAGER: Yes. I think the party is in the wilderness for a whole host of reasons. One is that there's no clear leader or even leaders that are stepping forward to try to bring the party together and debut some sort of message in response to Trump. I think another thing is that the Democrats have been very slow to respond to Trump.

[16:20:03]

There's been times where they're holding press conferences on something that Trump did two or three days ago, and in the Trump era, things just move much more quickly. He is speaking to the press multiple times a day, often from the Oval Office and just commanding space and the platform in a way that Democrats have long struggled to been able to compete with.

We're seeing some of the prominent Democrats trying to stake out their own turf. Bernie Sanders is traveling around the country doing some of these massive rallies. California Governor Gavin Newsom doing a podcast interview with Charlie Kirk. You know, a big supporter of Trump. And so I think there's this moment where Democrats are trying to figure out who their leader is and what their message is, but they're just really struggling to do so.

DEAN: Wait, so, Tyler, you mentioned this sit-down with Gavin Newsom and this conservative activist, MAGA loyalist, Charlie Kirk. They had a chat this week for his podcast, and Newsom did make some headlines because he broke with the Democratic Party on the issue of transgender athletes in sports. We can play that clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE KIRK, CONSERVATIVE PODCASTER: Would you say no men in female sports?

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, I think it's an issue of fairness. I completely agree with you on that. It is an issue of fairness. There's also a humility and grace that, you know, that these poor people are more likely to commit suicide, have anxiety and depression, and the way that people talk down to vulnerable communities is an issue that I have a hard time with as well. So both things I can hold in my hand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: So, Meredith, it's interesting because you have the broader picture, which is that Democrats have certainly been talking amongst themselves that they need to go where the voters are, that they've been afraid to go on podcasts, maybe like Charlie Kirk's. But then you also have Newsom trying to find a new way, a new message on this issue of transgender athletes. But both are kind of broadly indicative of the Democrats trying to find another way.

MCGRAW: Well, I think, you know, to the points Tyler was making, the Democratic Party has been largely divided on how they're going to even respond at this moment. Even Trump, you would think, would be sort of a unifying force for them. And they haven't gotten on the same page as to how they're going to respond to either Donald Trump or even Elon Musk, for that matter.

You're seeing more moderates in the Democratic Party have a very different take on how they should be repositioning after their 2024 loss versus progressives, and we're seeing it play out in ways like Governor Newsom's interview there with Charlie Kirk, where he is trying to make sort of a more moderate tack and appeal to some of those voters who thought that Democrats maybe were out of touch with some of the issues in the last election.

DEAN: Yes. And, Tyler, you also noted leadership. You know, I'm thinking back to like to Tuesday when we had the president's address to Congress and we saw some House Democrats. You know, I'm thinking about Al Green and others who were protesting, and the Democrats were very divided on whether or not that was effective. There was a lot of blowback on that. And there was reporting that they, you know, that leadership was not pleased with that.

But it's interesting they would do that against the wishes of leadership. You know, when you think back to the Nancy Pelosi days, they were quite unified.

PAGER: Yes, I think one of the points that Meredith made that's just so smart is this idea that Democrats used to think Trump was a unifying figure in opposition, that opposing him was a way to bring everyone together and bridge the differences within the broader coalition. I think part of that was premised on this idea that Trump, they believed, was an aberration, and that was a belief that Joe Biden held very closely.

Jessica, you and I spent a lot of 2019 and 2020 traveling the country covering that campaign where he made the case that Trump was not, you know, Trump was an aberration. And that is what guided his decision to run in '20. That was what guided his decision to run again in 2024. It's something we explore a lot in the book that I have coming out this summer, and I think that is now they're realizing he was reelected.

He didn't only win the electoral college, he won the popular vote. And so they're having a much harder time figuring out how to unify in opposition to his administration with reckoning with reality that he is now a two-term president that is popular.

DEAN: Yes. And, Meredith, you have to think that Trump and his administration that, I mean, they talk a lot about the mandate. And we could also get into what kind of mandate and how big and broad it is. But just this idea, to Tyler's point, that he's now a second term president, that all of these things happened and he was still reelected, and that really does it would seem they feel like they have the wind at their back in that way.

MCGRAW: They certainly feel that way. But there also is a recognition among people I talked to in the White House that they have a limited amount of time to, of course, get everything done that they want to. I think that's why we've seen this flurry of activity come out of the White House on everything from, you know, executive orders to, you know, Trump trying to make a push for different things on Capitol Hill.

[16:25:11]

We'll see how, of course, things play out in the next few weeks. But there is an understanding that there's a short runway to get a lot done. And after that, it's going to be a quick pivot to the midterms, where voters will get to make the call on what they've thought of the beginning of Trump's second term.

DEAN: Yes, and that is going to be here closer than and quicker than I think we all think and realize.

Meridith McGraw and Tyler Pager, thank you so much to you both. I appreciate it.

And still to come --

MCGRAW: Thanks, Jess.

PAGER: Thank you.

DEAN: Yes. What we're learning about the tragic last days of Gene Hackman and his wife, now that their causes of death have been revealed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:13]

DEAN: Tonight there are still some questions about the deaths of Gene Hackman and his wife, Betsy, last month at their home. Authorities in New Mexico finding both died of natural causes.

The 95-year-old film icon from heart disease with Alzheimer's as a contributing factor, his 65-year-old wife from Hantavirus. It's a rare disease from contact with rodents.

They believe she died several days before he did, and that he might have been unaware of what had happened to her.

CNN medical analyst, Dr. Jonathan Reiner, is joining us now for more on this.

Dr. Reiner, good to see you.

This -- these are just -- this is such an incredible kind of confluence of events. What do you make of the findings and the information we now have?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, I think this is a -- you know, a fascinating medical detective story about basically hunting down the cause of death for both Mr. Hackman and his wife, Betsy.

You know, she died of Hantavirus. We'll talk about that in a second. And he died, probably, of neglect after his primary caregiver died. And that's a -- you know, a sad reality that a lot of families have to face, how to take care of somebody with -- with severe dementia.

So, you know -- so Hantavirus is a rare disease. There are only about 50 cases in the United States -- United States every year. It was first described in 1993. And it's a rodent-borne viral illness.

And typically, in that part of the country, it's acquired from contact, either with the excrement or the saliva or the nesting materials of the deer mouse after they are infected with a virus called the Sin Nombre Virus.

And initially, it causes this sort of kind of typical respiratory, almost flu-like infection. But in many cases that progresses to something called Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome.

Which is really a devastating process that very quickly causes the lungs to fill with fluid and heart function to dramatically decline. Patients can be saved, but only with really sophisticated therapy involving something called Echo (ph) or really heart-lung support in -- in, you know, a very advanced ICU setting.

And people will get very sick very quickly. So it may be that Betsy started to feel poorly, but within just a matter of hours, became incapacitated. And then -- and then she was found, I think, in the -- in the bathroom upstairs.

DEAN: That is just -- it's incredible. And I heard you, right, 50 cases a year, five-zero roughly?

REINER: Yes. Many of them are in the southwest. As I said, it was described in 1993 in the four corners area of the southwest. And Mr. Hackman and Betsy lived in New Mexico. So right in that area.

There are a few cases in the southeast and in the northeast, but it's a very uncommon -- uncommon virus. And it does appear that this is what -- what she died from. He did not. There was no evidence that Mr. Hackman had Hantavirus.

DEAN: Yes. But to your point, you know, I think anyone who has had the sad reality of having to care for a family member with Alzheimer's that they really do in those late stages, rely on their caregivers. And if they're not around, you know, maybe they don't eat or maybe

they don't, you know, get the medicine they need, whatever the case might be.

REINER: Right? And, you know, folks with advanced Alzheimer's disease, you know, depend on caregivers for everything. We're learning that Mr. Hackman had heart disease. We know he had a pacemaker. And it sounds like his autopsy revealed other evidence of heart disease.

So he would have been on medication that Betsy or whoever else was providing care for him would have had to administer. He wouldn't be able to make his own -- own meals, probably wouldn't be able to -- to bathe himself.

And these are really the sad realities of advanced dementia. And you know, millions of Americans have, you know, folks in their family that they care for in this manner.

What's a little surprising to me in this story is that there doesn't appear to have been another caregiver, and almost certainly Mr. Hackman would have had the resources to have other folks involved in his care.

But it sounds like, you know, they both were -- were found in the house after several days of no one else visiting.

And again, if -- if Betsy were his was his only caregiver for that period of time, and she suddenly died, then it's not unlikely that he would have very difficulty getting -- getting through that period of time.

DEAN: All right. Well, Dr. Reiner, thank you so much. We appreciate your thoughts on that.

REINER: Thank you.

[16:34:57]

DEAN: As the U.S. appears to pull away from Ukraine, Russia is pouncing with dozens of deadly airstrikes over the past 24 hours. These increased attacks raising the stakes even higher for next week's talks between Washington and Kyiv. We'll talk more about that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Russia's assault on Ukraine is becoming even more intense. Local Ukrainian officials saying overnight strikes left more than 20 people dead and dozens more injured.

[16:39:57]

And all of this coming, of course, after the U.S. suspended military aid and some intel sharing with Kyiv. President Zelenskyy saying the attacks, quote, "Prove that Russia's goals are unchanged."

But President Trump says Vladimir Putin is, quote, "Doing what anyone else would do in his position."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you, Mr. President, think that Vladimir Putin is taking advantage of the U.S. pause right now on intelligence and military aid to Ukraine?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I actually think he's doing what anybody else would do. I think he's -- I think he wants to get it stopped and settled, and I think he's hitting him harder than -- than he's been hitting him. And I think probably anybody in that position would be doing that right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Joining us now is former deputy Pentagon press secretary during the Biden administration, Sabrina Singh.

Sabrina, we're so glad to have you.

I want to pick up there. Of course, Trump effectively flipped the switch on Ukraine this week. And he's saying that Vladimir Putin is doing, in his words, what anyone would be doing.

What does this mean for Ukraine right now? And what does it say to the rest of our allies about how we're partaking in all of this?

SABRINA SINGH, FORMER DEPUTY PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Well, thanks for having me on today.

You know, I think it sends an astounding and astonishing message just to our allies and partners around the world.

I mean, you saw this administration this week not only cut off military support for Ukraine, that was aid that was also promised under the previous administration that Ukraine was promised to continue to get these deliveries until that last package was signed out by President Biden. But also to cut off intel sharing.

So then when Donald Trump says, well, of course, Russia would do whatever, you know, what any leader would do during this time?

I mean, the Trump administration has effectively crippled Ukraine by the fact that they're not allowing the Ukrainians to fight back and respond against Russia because we've -- we've cut off military assistance and that intel sharing that was so critical in how they were able to have successes on the battlefield.

So I think allies and partners around the world are looking at the presidents statements, looking at the United States reneging on their agreements, their previous commitments under other administrations.

And really just having a moment on the world stage and saying, is the U.S. actually going to have our back if we really need them down the -- you know, down the road? DEAN: And, Sabrina, the president has made -- obviously, he was very

unhappy with the way that President Zelenskyy, he perceived, behaved at the White House about a week ago.

And he's -- he's making all of these decisions moving forward. I believe that their thought process is trying to get Ukraine to come to the table and accept a peace deal.

But do you think there's any validity to the way that they're trying to do this? Essentially, I think they think they're being tough on Ukraine to try to get them to accept a peace deal.

SINGH: Look, I think there's so many things that are probably going on behind the scenes that we don't know. But the reality is, is that being tough on Ukraine is not negotiating in public and making them weaker when they come to that negotiating table.

I mean, weeks ago, you saw Secretary Hegseth, the secretary of defense, go on the world stage in Munich and basically say that Ukraine does not have a path to NATO.

That is a huge leveraging tool that Ukraine would have been able to use in any bargain or any conversation with Russia to entering some type of ceasefire and then to lead to a peace deal.

So, you know, I think it's really hard to take, you know, what President Trump and others are saying at face value, when we are effectively, or the United States is effectively abandoning Ukraine in every single stage as this war prolongs every single day.

DEAN: And you mentioned NATO. Trump is -- is once again kind of casting doubt on whether the U.S. would come to the aid of a NATO ally if they were attacked. What does that mean for the NATO alliance?

SINGH: Look, I mean, quite frankly, that's not how Article V works. And I hope someone close to Donald Trump is explaining that to him. But again, this is the type of message that's sending to any ally.

And again, you know, the NATO alliance under the Biden administration is even got even stronger. It's now 32 countries. And yes, there are countries -- there are European countries in that alliance, this defensive alliance, that are trying to meet those spending goals.

But to say, blanketly, that we might not come to your aid if you don't meet those, I mean, that really sends shocking -- shockwaves through the system and to allies and partners all around the world.

I think you even saw President Macron earlier this week saying, you know, we might not be able to have the United States stand with us if we are attacked. I mean, of course, I'm paraphrasing.

But you know, I think that really sends shocking messaging and signaling to our allies who are looking at the president's words and looking to understand where the United States will stand if one or many allies are attacked by Russia. DEAN: And the White House does say that the NATO chief is visiting

Washington next week. Has Trump weakened his position? How do you see that playing out? What will you be looking for?

SINGH: I think, you know, Trump again tries to present strong. And the reality is, is the United States is strong because when we are faced in a conflict or ever have to go to war, we go to war with our friends and our allies.

[16:45:00]

And, you know, the only time that Article V was invoked was when we were attacked on September 11th. So you know, I'm going to be looking for a few things to come out of that meeting to see what Trump says on the NATO alliance.

At the end of the day, I think all NATO allies are looking to the United States to get the reassurance that the United States will have their back. And frankly, this administration has -- has wavered on that commitment.

DEAN: And Ukrainian and U.S. teams are going to meet in Saudi Arabia. That's also next week.

We -- I think we know what Trump wants out of a Ukraine deal, at least a piece of it. He is very invested in these minerals, in these rare -- rare earth minerals.

What do you think he wants from Russia? And what do you -- to what extent do you think he will push to get something from Russia?

SINGH: It remains to be seen. I mean, I frankly don't know what he wants from Russia.

I mean, basically all the talking points coming out of this administration has been, you know, catering to Russia and saying that, you know, Russia would be able to basically keep the territory that it has claimed of Ukraine, which is 20 percent of Ukraine's, you know, sovereign territory.

On top of that, you know, you've seen Trump and others push for elections in Ukraine. I mean, how can you have elections when Russia still is occupying 20 percent of that territory?

So, you know, I think it's a good step that the administration and the Ukrainians are meeting. But what the United States is willing to give Russia, it frankly seems like they're willing to give quite a lot.

DEAN: All right. Sabrina Singh, thank you so much for your analysis on that. We appreciate it.

SINGH: Thanks, Jessica.

DEAN: Up next, we're going to take you to the epicenter of the rapidly growing measles outbreak in west Texas that has already killed a child. That is next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:51:19]

DEAN: The measles outbreak in west Texas and eastern New Mexico has grown to more than 200 cases. Most of them are children 17 and younger who have not been vaccinated. Officials are expected to release the latest numbers Tuesday.

In the meantime, CNN's Nick Watt talked to people in the middle of the outbreak to find out why those numbers continue to go up.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The epicenter of the measles outbreak is rural Gaines County. Why here? Why now?

(on camera): Is this coming from the Mennonite community?

DR. LEILA MYRICK, FAMILY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN IN SEMINOLE, TEXAS: That's the biggest cohort of the population that is unvaccinated and so the predominant people that are -- we're seeing with it are in the Mennonite community but it's not only them.

WATT (voice-over): The Mennonites are Anabaptists who farmed around here since the 1970s.

Tina Siemens runs a museum.

TINA SIEMENS, OWNER, WEST TEXAS LIVING HERITAGE MUSEUM: It literally goes back to the 1500s back in Germany.

WATT: Charting her people's centuries-long flight from religious persecution and their time here in Texas.

SIEMENS: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

WATT: She's now translating health department offers of vaccines.

SIEMENS: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

No one will be turned away if they cannot meet the payment.

WATT: But that's falling on some deaf ears. Older Mennonites like Tina had to get the vaccine to get American citizenship after immigrating here. But now?

(on camera): The younger generation is choosing not to vaccinate.

SIEMENS: Because they have the capability of educating themselves.

WATT: So this is not a blind religious belief? This is an educated -- whether it's right or wrong, this is an educated choice?

SIEMENS: Absolutely.

WATT (voice-over): But is in line with centuries of Mennonite tradition, self-sufficiency.

SIEMENS: They have been self-sustaining. They did not go to the local doctor for everything because they had a home remedy.

WATT: Still, she feels her people are being scapegoated while others around here also refuse the vaccine.

Across Gaines County, more than 17 percent of kids in public schools have a so- called conscientious exemption so don't need to be vaccinated.

That's according to the latest state figures and is among the highest in the state, which is just one of 16 states that allows that.

There are hesitance among the non-Mennonites.

MYRICK: I think COVID did bring a lot of distrust to the public and it certainly didn't help us with already people having distrust of the health care system.

WATT (on camera): There's a very friendly small-town vibe around here. People very happy to chat over lunch about the weather and whatnot, even when they know we're from CNN.

But people we've spoken to who are against the vaccine, they'll tell us over the phone that they think it's dangerous, that they value personal and medical liberty.

But they won't talk to us with a camera. They say that they fear that their message will be misconstrued, that they'll be judged, and that people will just hate on them.

MYRICK: We are trying our best to communicate to the public.

WATT: Do you speak to them about why they're hesitant?

MYRICK: It can vary from their parents didn't vaccinate them or it could be that they read certain things from wherever on the Internet, association with autism or association with vaccine injury, a lot of different misbeliefs.

WATT: Do you see this getting much worse before it gets better here?

MYRICK: Honestly, with the numbers that we're seeing now, I think it is going to just get worse from here. I think our chances of keeping it contained has gone out the window.

WATT (voice-over): Some, not many, among the vaccine-skeptical Mennonites and others are now coming in to get the shots.

SIEMENS: You know, I heard of the family yesterday that really encouraged the vaccine. So there's --

[16:55:03]

WATT (on camera): There's a range? SIEMENS: There's a range.

WATT: And it's personal choice?

SIEMENS: Got it. That's key.

WATT: OK. OK.

SIEMENS: Personal choice. And praise the Lord we have that freedom here in America.

WATT: What's happening in Texas is essentially a perfect storm, large vaccine-skeptical Mennonite community, growing vaccine skepticism across the broader community, and laws in Texas that allow people to express that skepticism by not getting their kids vaccinated.

Skepticism is rising across the U.S. Vaccine rates are falling. So the potential for more outbreaks like this is on the rise.

Nick Watt CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: Nick, thank you.

Still ahead, President Trump's tariffs could mean higher prices on things like fertilizer from Canada for farmers. So what could that mean for you? We'll take a closer look, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)