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Trump Meets With NATO Chief Mark Rutte In Oval Office; Trump: Putin's Ceasefire Plan Response Promising But Incomplete; Trump Asks Supreme Court To Allow Him To End Birthright Citizenship; White House Pulls Pick For CDC Director Before Hearing; Trump Threatens 200 Percent Tariffs On E.U. Wine And Spirits; Judge Orders Fired Federal Workers Must Be Reinstated; CNN Poll: Optimism About The U.S. Economy Sags. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired March 13, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:40]

ISA SOARES, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome, everyone. I'm Isa Soares and this is CNN NEWSROOM.

We are tracking a key meeting in Washington between U.S. President Donald Trump and NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte. As this meeting takes place, U.S. officials are in Moscow pushing for Ukraine ceasefire proposal.

Trump says Russian President Vladimir Putin's response to the U.S. proposed ceasefire is, quote, promising, but it wasn't complete.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We know where we are with Ukraine and we are getting good signals outside of Russia as to where we are with Russia, and hopefully, they'll do the right thing. It's a really humanity. We're talking about humanity. We're not talking about the money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Let's get more on all of this. Listening to that was our Stephen Collinson.

Stephen, good to see you.

So a lot to discuss -- was discussed there on Ukraine alongside Mark Rutte talking -- said -- the president said there were positive statements, but there was also a lot to be said as well on tariffs. Let's start with what we heard from the president on -- on this potential ceasefire deal, which he thinks that that the signals have been pretty good from Putin so far.

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: I think we wouldn't expect Trump to come out and say, well, Putin said all sorts of things that are slightly troublesome.

SOARES: Yeah. COLLINSON: And he didn't really answer a lot of the questions. And I think you could argue that Putin has actually established some new conditions in the last few hours, because this is obviously a U.S. initiative, and he wants to keep it alive and give it momentum. And let's stipulate also that if Trump manages to end this war equitably, it will be a great achievement.

Having said that, if you listen to that session in the Oval Office, he still seems to be basing his optimism on the fact that the war can be ended just because he has a great relationship with Putin, or what he believes is a great relationship. It's not really clear what the U.S. plan is.

The president was asked several times what leverage he had over the Russian president, and he said we had leverage, but he didn't want to talk about it. And I think it's fair to question what that leverage might be.

When Putin talked about the root causes of the conflict that need to be addressed, he's talking about a whole raft of issues even beyond the Ukraine war, that extend to getting NATO troops moving back westward in Europe. Is Trump really going to be willing to talk about that stuff, because he's so desperate to get an end to the war, because he wants to be seen as a peacemaker?

I think a lot of questions were raised today that the Ukrainians and probably the Europeans, while welcoming, on the face of it, some incremental progress, might be quite worried about.

SOARES: Indeed, one minister in the last hour talk told me that what we heard from Putin would very much salami tactics. But look what we also heard from President Trump, he talked about Canada, who, of course, is a NATO country, alongside the NATO chief. And he also said spoke about Greenland. Also said they're saying this along alongside the NATO chief.

Have a listen to what he said on Greenland here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: That whole area is becoming very important and for a lot of reasons. The routes are, you know, very direct to Asia, to Russia, and you have ships all over the place. And we have to have protection.

So we're going to have to make a deal on that. And Denmark is not able to do that. You know, Denmark is very far away and really has nothing to do. What happens? A boat landed there 200 years ago or something. And they say they have rights to it. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't think it is actually.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: It's not the first time we've heard him talking about this. He truly believes in this, doesn't he?

COLLINSON: Yes. And I think he is voicing legitimate concerns, the shared in Washington about what happens to the strategic areas of the Arctic as the ice retreats, Russia and China are very interested in that, and it is a strategic question.

But to question whether Denmark has a claim on Greenland really is quite a troubling departure for the president. We don't know yet whether there is any real plan from the United States to try and move on Trump's rhetoric, to try and make his own claim on Greenland.

[15:05:03]

There was an election in Greenland just this week, and the party that won was, like all parties, pro-independence, but wants to move slightly slower. And their leader said, we don't want to be American. We want to be from Greenland.

But I think there are some troubling signs again here of Trump's expansionist ambitions, which we've seen throughout the western hemisphere.

SOARES: Indeed. Stephen, appreciate it. Thank you very much.

We're going to leave it there because we have some breaking news coming to us from Washington, this time involving President Trump's attempt to end birthright citizenship. Several judges have already rejected his effort. Now he's going to the Supreme Court.

Our chief legal correspondent, Paula Reid, joins us now.

So really taking the fight, Paula, to the Supreme Court. Just talk us through what this actually means.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: We always expected that this question would get to the high court eventually. Here, the Trump administration is asking the Supreme Court to allow the administration to be able to proceed with its policy, ending birthright citizenship. And that is a policy that has been recognized for over a century here in the U.S. and it says that if you are born here in the U.S. or U.S. territory, you are a U.S. citizen, even if your parents are not.

But on day one, President Trump signed an executive order ending that policy. Now, this sparked nearly a dozen lawsuits, and so far, federal judges have blocked this policy and signed it against the Trump administration. So here, they are asking the Supreme Court to remove these injunctions, these orders blocking this policy so that they can implement it.

Now, look, a lot of legal experts, they say the Trump administration has an uphill battle here. They are asking the Supreme Court to overturn, like I said, over a century of constitutional interpretation, the Trump administration argues that the 14th Amendment has been misinterpreted for the last century. They argue that if parents don't have legal status in the U.S., then they are not subject to the jurisdiction, which is a key word in the 14th Amendment of this country, and therefore their children should not be entitled to U.S. citizenship. The Trump administration has also made other arguments against

birthright citizenship, including arguing that it poses a national security risk and that there are abuses of the system. So, for example, very wealthy people coming to this country to have their babies so that they have that citizenship.

So far, none of these arguments have prevailed in federal court. So here they are asking the justices to lift these blocks so they can implement this policy. Now, my sources inside the Trump administration have told me they knew this was going to be challenged in court. They would they knew they were going to lose a lot of those cases, but they're not 100 percent confident they will ultimately prevail when this case goes before the Supreme Court.

Right now, it's unclear if the court will hear the larger constitutional questions or if they will just decide this more narrow issue of whether the policy should remain on hold while it is litigated through the courts.

SOARES: Yeah, I was going to ask you, Paul. I mean, just talk us through the next steps here. If this is very much going down the route of the courts, what are we likely to see how quick this will move or not move in this in this instance?

REID: Well, we'll be watching very closely because this is really one of the biggest questions that has gone before the Supreme Court so far. This is a purely constitutional question about the extent of Trump's executive power. And arguably, this has been the greatest test of that power because legal experts pretty much universally say this is going to be a tough case to win at the Supreme Court.

And we know that the president, he takes pride in the fact that he has helped to establish a conservative supermajority on that court. They have cited many cases in his favor, though not all. And it would be a huge blow if they are to eventually take up this issue on the merits. And he loses.

But look, all the legal experts I've spoken with say this is going to be very difficult to convince the Supreme Court that it is incorrectly interpreted an amendment for over a century. But the Supreme Court has surprised us in the past. The administration does have some legitimate legal arguments, but it's just unclear what the court will do next.

SOARES: Paula, I know you'll see across it for us. Appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed.

And we're going to stay in the United States because the source says almost 100 protesters are now under arrest after flooding Trump Tower to demand the release of a detained Palestinian activist. The New York demonstration was organized, as you can see there, by the group Jewish Voice for Peace. More than 120 people entered the lobby and 98 were arrested, a law enforcement official told CNN.

They were there, as you could hear, to support the right to free speech after Mahmoud Khalil, a prominent activist who helped lead Columbia University student protest movement demanding a ceasefire in Gaza, was detained. We brought you this story yesterday.

And one of Khalil's attorneys spoke to CNN just a short time ago. Have a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAHER AZMY, ATTORNEY FOR MAHMOUD KHALIL: The activities they're referring to is -- are peaceful protests, including leadership within the Columbia student body supporting advocacy for Palestinian human rights, and for a cry to end the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people, which he is a part, albeit part of the diaspora.

[15:10:19]

He has no connections to Hamas. The most they suggest is he was part of protests in which other people issued fliers vaguely supportive of Hamas. And if anyone has ever been to a protest, there are thousands of people who say thousands of things. And lest we go down the road that the administration seems to want to, this McCarthyist road, guilt by association, is inconsistent with basic democratic principles.

And so really, fundamentally, what the president of the United States and the secretary of state is saying, and this should be chilling for everyone, that simply dissenting from the foreign policy aims of the United States government could get you arrested at night, detained and ultimately deported.

Again, this is sort of McCarthyist era thought repression. It's about repression. It has nothing to do with security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Let's get more on all of this. Raul Reyes is an attorney, CNN opinion writer and immigration analyst.

Raul, great to have you on the show.

I will speak, we will talk about Mahmoud Khalil in just a moment. But as you probably heard in the last few minutes, we had breaking news out of Washington. President Trump asking the Supreme Court to allow him to end birthright citizenship. What do you make of this latest push here -- taking the fight all the way clearly to the Supreme Court?

RAUL REYES, CNN OPINION WRITER: I'm not surprised that the administration is taking this to the Supreme Court here in the U.S. I think the big test will be in the weeks ahead, the months ahead if the Supreme Court allows it to be heard.

Generally, the Supreme Court will not take a case unless there is a lot of dissent or conflict of decisions in the lower courts. And so far, not only as, as you mentioned, do we have over 100 years of precedent upholding birthright citizenship. But in every federal court, state court where this has been challenged so far, it has been upheld at the lower levels.

SOARES: So talk us through then, the kind of the arguments that you think will be made from the -- on the Trump administration side here.

REYES: From the Trump administration side, they will try to argue -- their chief argument is that the children of undocumented people are not subject to the jurisdiction of U.S. laws. However, the easiest way to explain why that is a tough argument to make is because if you are undocumented, or if a child of undocumented person, you still -- you have to obey the -- the speed limit you. If you commit some type of violent crime, you'll be stopped by the police.

Obviously, you know, realistically, you are subject to the jurisdiction of American laws and many of the children of undocumented people have no connection to any other country because they were brought here at such a young age. So to try and suggest, for example, that a child brought here from China or India, whose parents are undocumented, is subject to the laws of those countries, that's really a steep challenge.

SOARES: A steep challenge, an uphill battle. I mean, how do you see they're going to play this out? This is just going to drag this out through the courts then, Raul?

REYES: Yes. I think that is part of their strategy to -- to drag it out through the courts to, to create certain amount of confusion, certainly in the immigrant community, we've already seen that because many ordinary Americans, everyday people, they are not following each court decision as it goes along, but they hear -- they hear talk on the street. You hear things secondhand that now, if your citizenship may be in question now, your parents might be investigated.

So it does have a chilling effect. Just the fact that we are talking about it and it has become an issue again, that does send a signal and it has an impact on our immigrant community and their families.

SOARES: And you're an immigration analyst and attorney, what kind of conversations have you had since the Trump administration has come -- has come to power because, you know, they're really ripping up many of the institutions of the United States here.

REYES: Right. It is not an exaggeration to say that there's tremendous fear in our immigrant communities right now --

SOARES: Yeah.

REYES: -- across the United States. We have 13 million people here undocumented.

But this type of fear extends beyond that community because we have so many citizen children of undocumented people. We have entire communities where undocumented people are woven into them.

I believe the more than half of undocumented people have been here over a decade, so they're part of the fabric of our communities.

[15:15:01]

And when people hear about ICE raids, about mass deportations, about raids at workplaces, and now these questions about citizenship, I think it's very normal for people, for people to -- to feel scared. They had a preview of -- during the first Trump administration. But the second time around, the Trump administration seems to be acting more forcefully and more aggressively towards what? Towards its vision of the United States, which excludes many immigrants, undocumented people and people in our labor force.

SOARES: And speaking of ICE detention, who the person, one of the people that is being held in ice detention is Mahmoud Khalil. As we have been reporting here, we have seen today, Raul, you've probably seen this some 100 protesters, according to sources under arrest. I think we have the footage they took over Trump Tower, really trying to demand the release of -- of the Palestinian activists.

Just -- just speak to this level of anger that we are seeing around. We're playing some of the video now. This is the Jewish Voice for Peace. Some of the anger that we are seeing across the United States.

REYES: Right. I think this sort of anger and pushback is -- is only going to grow as this case continues, because this is how you can look at this case. There are two ways of looking at it. If we look at it from the governments position where they say this is just about his Mr. Khalil's political activity, his -- his activism, then that's problematic because that raises all sorts of questions about whether or not we are going to have the right to protest and whether potentially people could be arrested for protesting the war in Russia or in Ukraine, or protesting against the Trump administration.

And yet, on the other hand, if we look at it, what Mr. Khalil's lawyers say, and we look at this as a question of free speech, that is equally problematic because under our legal system, non-citizens are entitled to the full rights of free speech. This is a non-negotiable. This is something that is not conditioned on the approval of the president or any political party.

So either way we look at it, it seems as though we are getting on a very slippery slope towards what many see as a type of repression or potentially the use of immigration enforcement to punish people or to -- to suppress dissent.

And for me, I think if, you know, if, if we are to remain a civil society, it's important that we tolerate all forms of speech, dissenting views, even speech we may not agree with or that we may find offensive or we risk losing who we are as Americans.

SOARES: Yeah, incredibly chilling indeed.

Raul Reyes, really appreciate you coming on the show. And thank you for sticking with us through the breaking news to you. Thank you. Raul. Appreciate it.

REYES: Thank you.

SOARES: Now, a new report, U.N. report, I should say, is making serious accusations against Israel over its conduct in Gaza. The report accuses Israel of carrying out what it calls genocidal acts against Palestinians through the, quote, systematic destruction of sexual and reproductive health care facilities. The U.N. commission says the violations were committed under explicit orders or implicit encouragement by top civil as well as military leaders. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS SIDOTI, MEMBER, INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY: Men and boys were forced to strip wholly or almost wholly, that is down to underpants, and then were kept in that condition, often having to sit on stones on the ground in the cold in winter for up to three days. Now this is physical abuse, but its also psychological abuse. It's designed to humiliate. So we have no doubt at all, on the basis of the evidence that we received, what is going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Well, Israel is strongly rejecting the report, saying its an attempt to incriminate its military. In a statement, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the U.N. Human Rights Council a, quote, antisemitic, corrupt, terror-supporting and irrelevant body.

Still to come right here, Donald Trump's tariff fight has a new target. That's European alcohol. We'll have more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:19]

SOARES: Welcome back.

The White House is withdrawing its pick to lead the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The Trump administration pulled the nomination of Dr. David Weldon today, shortly before the start of his confirmation hearing on Capitol Hill. Weldon has come under fire from Democrats and some Republicans for some recent comments he made about vaccines.

Our CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell is with us now.

So, Meg, just explain the reasoning for pulling this and what we know about his history, really on vaccines here.

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So there are a few things at play here. We just learned from a source that there was a meeting between Weldon and Republican staffers ahead of this confirmation hearing this week, where a source at the meeting told us it appeared Weldon was unprepared and came saying he didn't have a strategic plan for the CDC, didn't know about the authorities of CDC director, and planned to learn on the job. He said he had a busy medical practice back in Florida and hadn't prepared, essentially. So that's one thing.

But Weldon himself gave us a statement about what had happened. And in his telling, two Republican senators on the health committee, which was set to hold this hearing today, their staffers, he alleges in this meeting, acted as if he was anti-vaccine. That was Senator Susan Collins' staffers and Senator Bill Cassidy staffers. And he says of Bill Cassidy, who is the chair of the health committee, that he, quote, was throwing around the claim that I was antivax or that I believed that vaccines cause autism, which I have never said.

But if you look at this 2019 interview that Dr. Weldon gave, this video was found by CNN's Andrew Kaczynski, Dr. Weldon said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DAVE WELDON, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR NOMINEE: Some children can get an autism spectrum disorder from a vaccine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TIRRELL: So of course, suggesting they're the opposite of what he says here, which is that he'd never suggested that vaccines cause autism. And of course, we should note that many, many studies over years have shown no link between vaccines and autism. Dr. Weldon also alleged in his statement that Senator Cassidy had asked for his nomination to be withdrawn, and a representative from Cassidy's office said that was not the case, Isa.

SOARES: Meg Tirrell, appreciate it. Thanks, Meg.

Now, staying in the United States, President Trump's trade war with the E.U. could soon have you reconsidering whether to order that glass of your favorite alcoholic beverage. Mr. Trump is threatening to impose a massive 200 percent tariff on European alcohol. And the threat comes, of course, on the heels of a 50 percent retaliatory tariff the E.U. slapped on the U.S. spirits earlier this week.

The trade war could prove costly to many, including American whiskey makers. Europe importing nearly $700 million worth of whiskey from the U.S. over the last three years.

[15:25:05]

Anna Stewart is here, and this time she showed up with a bottle of Veuve and aren't I grateful? Unfortunately, it is closed.

But look, we heard the president last, what, an hour and a bit attacking the E.U. again, saying, I'm not going to. I'm not going to bend on tariffs, saying the E.U. is very, very nasty. You said it's a one-way street with the European Union. And the tit for tat continues as the markets react.

ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But currently, this is just a threat. So the threat is would you like the champagne? It may cost you up to maybe three times as much for Americans, potentially. That is a no. They'll have to go off champagne and drink something else.

Markets are clearly not happy today. We are having another sell off. The Dow down more than 400 points. We're seeing the S&P now in correction territory really capping off a miserable couple of weeks. We'll see how they fare tomorrow.

There's a lot of concern about what the tariffs are going to do. But also, the stop-start nature of it.

SOARES: Yeah.

STEWART: This is a threat. Will it happen? Will these be implemented? Will the E.U. retaliate? Will we see even more tariffs implemented on the 2nd of April?

SOARES: And this threat. And it is a threat. And let's just be very clear. We -- you know, were based in the in London. But we like our champagne.

But we also know -- and perhaps President Trump doesn't know this -- that champagne comes from the Champagne region in France. So, this is a -- this is a point that we thought we needed to make very clear, that you can't have producers in the U.S. making champagne, because this whole argument is that if we tariff them, then, then we can start producing more of these amazing wine or champagne in the United States. Champagne can only come from the Champagne region. So let's just get that clear.

But what kind of impact, Anna, I know it's just a threat, but what kind of impact would this potentially have on -- on French produced -- wine producers, Italian wine producers. Just talk us through that.

STEWART: A big impact for, you know, brewers, for winemakers, lots of small winemakers. They're generally really small holdings and small companies and, of course, champagne and so on.

For Champagne -- and France is clearly very concerned. We already heard from the trade minister on Twitter today. For champagne, you know, the U.S. is the biggest market for them, the biggest export market followed by the U.K.

This is not something you want to see. And we're not talking about a 50 percent tariff, which is what the E.U. were imposing on the U.S. for spirits. We're talking about 200 percent. And I think you make a really good point, what is the point of tariffs at the end of the day?

If we take them to their extreme and I'm beginning to worry that we're going to get to the extreme. You're looking at a United States that's almost a sort of closed economy.

Can the U.S. truly make absolutely everything it needs? No, it doesn't have raw materials, for instance, but also in a capitalist society, some Americans may want champagne. They may not just want American sparkling wine. And this is going to become a problem for consumers.

SOARES: And the concern is if we can bring up the markets again, Tom, just to just show viewers, you know, the just how tumultuous this week has been, and just even today, there's just so much uncertainty that we've seen in the past. I think two weeks now, Anna.

I wonder then, you know, the fears that we've been hearing of potential slowdown of a recession. President Trump saying today, you know, he was asked a question about small businesses. He said, well, you're going to be much richer in the long term. You were telling me this yesterday, unfortunately, we didn't get a

chance to actually talk on air because of breaking news. But you were saying in terms of airline stocks and other stocks, you're already seeing an impact as people pull back on spending.

STEWART: Yes. So even though inflation is actually not as bad as people thought this week, data points have come in quite well for the U.S., consumers are concerned. We're seeing consumer sentiment pointing downwards. People are not buying plane tickets. People are holding off on purchases and also for businesses, they may start holding off on making investments or creating new jobs because there's just so much uncertainty.

So while the stock market isn't the economy, and you have to kind of draw a line between the two, we are seeing huge concerns fundamentally from the consumer, from the businesses and also from investors very unsure about where all of this is heading.

SOARES: Quickly get that plane ticket and come and get some champagne, is the message.

And thanks to our producer Tom for giving us -- gifting us.

STEWART: Wasn't borrowed, was it?

SOARES: It was a gift. It was gifting us, I think, he said, gifting us that.

Thank you very much, Anna.

And still to come right here, U.S. special envoy Steve -- Steve Witkoff is in Moscow to talk about temporary ceasefire proposal with Ukraine. Can he get the Kremlin to make a deal? Well, that is a big question. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:33:01]

SOARES: Welcome back, everyone.

Russian President Vladimir Putin says he is open to the idea of a 30- day ceasefire with Ukraine, but he has reservations about the one currently being proposed. In Moscow today, Mr. Putin spoke after a meeting with his close ally, Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko.

(BEGIUN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We agree with the proposal to cease hostilities, but we have to bear in mind that this ceasefire must be aimed at a long lasting peace, and it must look at the root causes of the crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SOARES: Meantime, U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff is in Moscow now to discuss the ceasefire with President Putin, while U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is expected to discuss Ukraine as he meets this hour with G7 foreign ministers in Canada.

Very, very busy day on the diplomatic stage.

Our international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, is here.

And, Nic, let me just pick up with that little clip we just played of President Putin, where he was talking about this, you know, this -- it has to be ceasefire should lead to enduring peace, but should remove the root causes of the conflict.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And Putin has said one of the root causes essentially was NATO encroaching and getting too close to Russia. And that's been a problem for him. It's been a problem for -- for -- for more than a decade. So it appears that, you know, within a settlement, he's -- he's saying, well, were going to have to talk about this issue as well.

But the bottom line with Putin, he is coming to the table saying, I've got a list of issues and we're going to have to address those if you want my buy in. Now, what we heard from Trump today is saying that actually there's been a level of discussion with the Russians already about this. So they have a certain degree of knowledge about it.

So although Putin's expressing these views now, they're reasonably well-informed about what's going on in the background and Trump's and Trump is actually being quite clear in saying, look, I hope he's going to say yes, I hope he's going to go along -- along with it. Otherwise, it would be very disappointing for the world.

It's going to be very interesting to see that moment of contact between Putin's pushback and where Putin -- and where Trump decides its actual pushback and not stuff that he can pass on for the Europe -- for the Europeans to absorb and the Ukrainians to absorb.

SOARES: And he was asked, I think, twice by journalists at -- at the White House as he was sitting next to Mark Rutte, the NATO chief, about leverage.

What leverage do you have against Putin? He said, I have leverage, but I won't discuss it. But he did talk about land -- I'm guessing territory in Ukraine, but also power plants.

Do we have -- it was very, very general, the comment. Do we have any more information on that?

ROBERTSON: I think really from what president Trump said and he wasn't specific, but he said it's a very large, important power plant, which really just indicates that it's one it's a Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. In the early months of the war, Russia took control of it. It's sitting on a river immediately. On the other bank of the river is Ukrainian territory. And they tried a lot in the first year to get control of it. It's become a point of contention, and the International Atomic Energy Agency sent their chief to go and inspect it several times.

The Ukrainians fear that if Russia does hand it over and Putin said -- Trump seems to indicate that this has been -- this is in the balance, that Russia will effectively destroy it, making it beyond use.

And it's hugely important for Ukraine. It is a massive power plant. It produces huge, huge amounts of electricity, remembering that Russia's targeted their power generating. But it's also an economic resource for Ukraine because it exports electricity to other countries further west in Europe.

So in essence, Putin would potentially -- if the Ukrainian fears are correct, be denying a source of revenue. And that tells us that Putin wants to see a weak Ukraine. We understood that. But now, we see the contours. And it may be.

SOARES: Yeah, it shouldn't really surprise us, given, you know what we have seen in the last few years.

Are we starting to get a better sense of what the read of what Putin wants in terms of what the red lines are for him? I think he was mentioning we were talking about no NATO troops. Are we getting a better sense now of what -- what he's going to these meetings asking for?

ROBERTSON: It's very much -- very clear. He seems to be saying that all the territory we've taken we're not about to give up.

SOARES: Potentially Kursk here, even?

ROBERTSON: Potentially Kursk. Kursk being that that territory that's actually inside Russia, that the Ukrainians took hoping potentially to use it as a bargaining chip at the table.

You know, Putin's indicating that we won't agree to the ceasefire until we've completely taken it. He's saying that they can -- you know, we haven't really heard from the Ukrainians, but I think the indications have been that they're on a weak footing there. So there's that.

But I think one of the key points, and getting to the understanding of all of this, what the Ukrainians have been told is that the final deal is going to respect your sovereignty and a durable peace. Sovereignty means you get to make sovereign decisions.

And one of the things that Putin is indicating is indicating an interest on the weapons that are coming into Ukraine, the training that its doing for its military, the new units that its standing up, the inference and this is Putin speak. So we know from past practice what it really means. He's going to want to see limits on the size of the Ukrainian army, on the weapons that are coming in.

He'll want to pressure the United States against that. He'll want to make sure that whatever security guarantees are so weak for Ukraine. So these are -- this is the context, not a surprise, but we're getting an idea of it now. SOARES: Yeah, not a surprise. We're hearing lots of wants but not

what we're getting in return. This is something that we -- we have heard from Europeans and European diplomats here on the show. Not much clarity.

Nic, appreciate it. And still to come right here, CNN asks Americans their thoughts on the economy and moves by the Trump administration. We'll get their reaction, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:42:03]

SOARES: A very busy hour, and we have some more breaking news. The judge in the United States is ordering the White House to immediately reinstate thousands of federal employees fired, if you remember, by President Donald Trump and Elon Musk.

They were let go under the Trump administration's attempt to really shrink the size of the federal government. But the judge slammed the effort as a sham.

I want to go back to CNN's chief legal affairs correspondent, Paula Reid.

And, Paula, it has certainly been a very busy afternoon for you. Just bring us up to date with the very latest, because from what I understand, this hits multiple agencies.

REID: That's exactly right here. The judge is ordering the Trump administration to reinstate employees at about a half a dozen or a dozen federal agencies, including the V.A., the Department of Defense. There's others as well.

And the reason the judge said he is doing this is because he believes the Office of Personnel Management unlawfully directed agencies earlier this year to lay off probationary employees who -- so those are employees who have been on the job for less than a year.

And I listened in to this hearing in San Francisco. And the judge was also really unhappy with the Justice Department and the fact that they did not make available for testimony a top official from the Office of Personnel Management. That director was set to testify. I was expected to face some pretty tough questions from lawyers representing unions that filed this lawsuit. But not only did the Justice Department not make him available, they also withdrew a declaration that he had made about this case.

Now, the judge had some harsh words for the government, saying, quote, you're afraid to allow this person to testify because, you know, cross examination will reveal the truth. I tend to doubt that you are telling me the truth. And he admonished him for documents that they had submitted, saying that they were giving him press releases in reference to some documents that the justice department had submitted about these terminations. Now the Justice Department can appeal this ruling. The judge said if

they wanted to do that, quote, God bless you. But going forward, the judge is going to allow another official in that agency to be deposed.

So, this is going to give lawyers an opportunity to ask this official questions under oath for several hours. So that is an extraordinary development in this ongoing legal saga over the extent to which the Trump administration can call the federal government in the way it wants to.

SOARES: Paula Reid, thank you very much indeed for breaking it all down for us, as always.

We're going to stay in the United States because a new poll shows more than half of Americans think these cuts to federal programs will hurt the economy. And when asked their thoughts for the overall economic outlook, the poll shows Americans, as you can see there, are split.

CNN's Matt Egan explained earlier to our Sara Sidner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: There is basically a dead heat, an even split here, about how people think economic conditions will be a year from now. Only 49 percent think that conditions will be good, 51 percent poor.

[15:45:04]

What's most interesting, though, is the change here. Since this question was last asked in January just before President Trump took office, you can see that there's been a decline of seven points between who thinks that the economy will be better a year from now, and then a seven point increase for poor. So those are not -- that's not the trend you want to see, right, if you're in the White House or frankly, for many people on Wall Street.

When we look at the political party breakdown, you can see Republicans, 88 percent, right? I mean, they are actually more confident than they were back in January. That conditions will be good a year from now. But the big decline here, independents, a 13 point decline, and Democrats also another decline there.

(ENDVIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Let's get more on all of this.

Joining us now is Ryan Patel. He's a senior fellow at Drucker School of Management.

Ryan, great to see you again. It's been a while. Unfortunately, we -- it seems that the numbers don't look so good. If we bring up the Dow Jones, if we have it up, bring it up for our viewers as is. As I was speaking to my colleague earlier, it's been a pretty bad kind of week and a half across the stock markets as we see this kind of tit for tat on tariffs. Let me start off first on that polling that my colleague Matt Egan was

just talking about is the sense that you're getting that people a feeling -- feeling it already, the concerns of the economy. What is -- what is your sense of what you're seeing in the United States?

RYAN PATEL, SENIOR FELLOW, DRUCKER SCHOOL OF MANAGEMENT: Well, its always great joining you.

And I think the sense that I'm hearing not just from businesses and consumers, let's start with consumers, is that they are worried. The average check when it comes to the grocery store, they're starting to think about that, maybe spend less.

I think the poll was interesting. What stood out to me was the independents, and, you know, the younger generation was starting to, you know, kind of ask questions and starting to feel that as well. But, you know, at the end of the day, you see the markets as the markets number as well. You know, it's a terrible week this week.

And so when you have change and you have this much policy, things that are going on, it provides questions that people are not certain on where it's going. And, you know, and on top of that, obviously you see the Nasdaq and the S&P 500. It's not looking pretty because there isn't anything really to stop it. As of right now, we're talking about maybe in the correction level for the market.

So it's just something where people are feeling this because you see all these different cuts. You see, you know, jobs getting laid off across different sectors and things become more expensive. And people do feel it first off in their pocket and then in the business.

SOARES: Yeah. And, Ryan, you know, you know that President Trump loves tariffs. Apparently, it's his favorite word. He also keeps a close eye on polls and on stock markets.

But he was asked today at the Oval Office as he was sitting next to the NATO chief. He was asked a question about, you know, how this tit for tat, the tariffs, how that affects businesses and what is your message. And you said you're going to be so much richer than you are right now.

Does that strategy of, you know, paying now for long term gain, do you think that is resonating with so many people right now just see this volatility? And if you're a business owner, don't really know which way to turn?

PATEL: No, that's a great point, right? When you have a strategy, it has to be really clearly communicated. I'm not saying that he's not. But I don't think people are seeing the benefits. So when you do these cuts, its meant to be more efficient and that you're hoping that the delta, meaning the change between what you cut and how much you can gain in the future, would be a lot more.

And that is not clear right now of how much are you going to gain in the long term? Obviously, in the short term, it's clear that it said we are going to feel pain. And that's what President Trump says in this negotiation in the short term. And the question becomes, what kind of better deal can you get?

And I think that's unclear on what that looks like. Obviously, manufacturing trying to come back home, but that still takes time when you build that up. And so that's -- that's really what people are questioning. And some businesses are keeping their money on the sidelines and others are trying to look for opportunities to create that ROI at the same time.

SOARES: So, you know, for us on this side of the pond, just we see these numbers, we see the tariffs, the kind of roller coaster that we have seen with Canada, with Europe, with Mexico and so forth. And we kind of worry about the state of the U.S. economy that just, you know, two over a month ago was so robust. And on its basis, it kind of is.

But we heard from Larry Fink -- Larry Fink today, the chief executive of BlackRock, and he spoke about the fact that the economy is weakening as we speak. I want to play it, listen to this and we can talk after that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY FINK, CEO, BLACKROCK: It depends on the duration of a recession. Could we have a one quarter or two quarters of market of -- of a flattening of our economy as we try to reset the economy? Absolutely. Could we see elevated inflation in the next two quarters? Yes.

But I'm looking beyond that. If we are able to unlock private capital, as I wrote about in an editorial, if we could, you know, reinvest back in America, if we could build more factories and plants in America that will restart and rekindle the next wave of -- of -- of a bull market.

[15:50:05]

So, yes, I feel that uncertainty. I know that there are moments when I'm uncertain, but I look at this as opportunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: And at this point there is that, yes, people are pausing. They are pulling back. Is that what you're seeing too?

PATEL: I'm talking about that where, you know, people are holding the seeing because they don't want to make a decision based on, you know, what does it look like today, especially around supply chain? Larry's not wrong either, about having factory workers coming back.

But what I'm really seeing is what -- what does it look like? Where should the capital move? We're so interconnected, as you know. You know, when one side has a struggle, it passes it down as a supply.

When you see inflation still, you know, the Fed coming out and not trying to cut it. It just prolongs the economic growth of the U.S. I think the U.S. economy is not in a bad place. The question becomes, how much self-harm can it be to be able to get back to the growing machine as everyone is talking about?

SOARES: Yeah.

PATEL: Well, once it gets passed to the other side, once the inflation is done, once we get cuts. But when is that going to happen? And is that at the end of the year, is that next year? And then will you see the growth.

SOARES: Then on that question, the Fed I think we expected to hear from the Fed and correct me if I'm wrong, Ryan, next week. What -- how does the Fed then thread this needle?

PATEL: I'm laughing because I don't think we're going to get that much more direction except for a pause because -- because it is the data --

SOARES: But the language really -- is really it's the data, but also what is said so often it's trying to read the tea leaves, isn't it?

PATEL: Yeah. No. And Jerome Powell has done, you know, recently he's done a better job of kind of dictating on what is going to do.

But let me tell you what he's going to do, I believe, is that its going to be a pause. The data isn't going to show for them to decrease, because that's really the answer, is that when are you going to decrease it? Is it two times this year? The markets thinking it's three, which I'm not really sure that's the case.

And you know, the faster that eventually that the fed feels comfortable, I think well also signal to the rest of the U.S. economy and the consumer in confidence that we are now getting onto the other side.

SOARES: Let's hope so. Ryan Patel, great to see you again. Thanks very much.

PATEL: Thank you.

SOARES: We're going to take a short break. Be back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOARES: It's 12 years to the day since the conclave at the Vatican elected Pope Francis to lead the Catholic Church. The pontiff celebrated with medical workers as he's been battling, as you know, double pneumonia in Rome hospital since last month.

The Vatican says the pope started the day with his normal hospital treatments.

[15:55:03]

He also engaged in spiritual exercises and prayed at the hospital chapel.

And finally, tonight, CNN has obtained some incredible video of a snowboarder narrowly escaping an avalanche in New Hampshire. I want you to have a look at this. In the upper left hand corner of your screen, catch that, you can see the snowboarder outrunning the avalanche on Mount Washington. Something you watched in the movies. A webcam captured Tuesday's terrifying moment. Luckily, no one was injured.

This is like a scene out of James Bond. Absolutely terrifying, but wonderful to see that he is or she is absolutely fine.

That does it for me right here. Thanks very much for your company. I'm Isa Soares.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next. Have a wonderful day. I shall see you tomorrow.