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CNN International: Soon: Trump To Sign Executive Order On Education Department; Gaza Officials: Latest Israeli Strikes Kill At Least 85; Russia & Ukraine Accuse Each Other Of Attacks As Ceasefire Talks Are Set For Early Next Week; Court Deadline On Deportations By Trump Administration Passes; Political Division Drives Tesla Stocks Down; E.U. Delays Tariffs On U.S. Products Until Mid-April. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired March 20, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:33]

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm Max Foster. This is CNN NEWSROOM.

Keeping a close eye on the White House for you this hour. The fate of a key U.S. agency is in jeopardy. President Donald Trump is expected to soon sign an executive order that will start the process of dismantling the Department of Education.

One administration official tells CNN, while entirely shuttering a department requires an act of Congress, the president could direct the education secretary to take steps towards a closure. One major concern with this move -- what will happen to Pell grants and student loans?

White House press secretary gave this answer earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So the Department of Education will be much smaller than it is today. As you know, the president's executive order directed Linda McMahon to greatly minimize the agency. So when it comes to student loans and Pell grants, those will still be run out of the Department of Education. But we don't need to be spending more than $3 trillion over the course of a few decades on a department that's clearly failing in its initial intention to educate our students.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: And we're getting new reaction to this issue from the president of the American Federation of Teachers. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDI WEINGARTEN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: The real issue is how do we make sure that kids have the funding that they need? And, and, and we make sure that every single kid has a safe and welcoming environment and is one that is engaging and relevant. But I think we could all do a better job in terms of education. I'm just surprised that the president is not working with the teachers in classrooms throughout the country, as represented by their union, to make things better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Joining us in Washington, Sunlen Serfaty.

We should clarify, you know, he's not closing down schools. Is he here? This is the umbrella body overseeing it all.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That's absolutely right, Max. And this is an important thing to remember. I'm glad you brought it up, that President Trump, his ambition and his goal on the campaign trail, which he said his campaign promise would be to dismantle the Department of Education, the Department of Education largely oversees funding that gives funding to some schools. K through 12th grade, some loans to students at higher education that need it, but they are not in charge of curriculum in any way. That certainly won't change.

But President Trump here's goal that he intends to make good on this afternoon is to fundamentally change how it works, to downsize the Department of Education and, in essence, make it just a skeleton of what it once was. And notable that the new education secretary, Linda McMahon. She says the goal of her job as secretary is to, in essence, be out of a job, because, notably, they believe that they will dismantle the department entirely.

Now, notably, as you said, this cannot happen without an act of Congress. And right now, it does not appear that that's something that will go forward. So what they're trying to do now is really go around Congress in essence, and downsize the agency. They've just had 50 percent workforce cuts and change parts of it.

We likely will see in the coming days' moves by the agency to send specific programs to other agencies like HHS and treasury. So, certainly big, big changes coming for the Department of Education. And certainly, we will see the impacts of that in schools and for students in the coming months.

FOSTER: Sunlen, thank you so much for bringing us the latest on that. The latest move by the White House, further testing the president's executive authority, while several questions remain for what a dismantling will look like, legal action is already being prepared by education supporters.

Let's continue this discussion with Stephen Collinson.

I mean, just to go to Sunlen's point, there -- you know, legally, he can't close down the department, but he can paralyze it, can't he?

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: That's true. And he does have the power to do that, Max. This actually is a lot less surprising to me than a lot of the other attacks that Trump has made on the bureaucracy. Republicans have been trying to get rid of the Department of Education since Ronald Reagan in the 1980s. I don't think I've ever been to a Republican campaign event where someone doesn't mention the need to get rid of this department.

Republicans out in the heartland believe that this is a liberal institution that is inflicting what they see as liberal values on their students.

[15:00:08]

There's a good debate about whether that's actually true, because 90 percent of the funding and the administration of education in the United States is already a state responsibility. But I think what this is for Donald Trump is a massive ideological victory. It will be seen as that by his supporters and his delivering for them.

The question I have here is, how exactly is this going to work? For example, the multi-trillion dollar student loan program is administered inside the Department of Education. The administration had tried to farm it off into another agency like the Commerce Department today. They said it's staying there because it's such a complex thing and the possibility of political damage if it all goes wrong later this year, is so huge that they're worried about this.

They also say that other critical Department of Education responsibilities, like funding for disabled children, funding for minority children, that's going to stay in the Department of Education. I think it's going to be very interesting to see if they can keep these core principles going without creating a massive mess that will be very unpopular. And I think they're starting to face up to some of that right now.

FOSTER: Is there any talk that, you know, as you say, an ideological move in many ways to cleaning out the liberals? Does that -- I mean, could we see a situation where people more sympathetic to the Trump administration come back in? So its still operates and does, you know, a lot of very important work? Everyone would agree, just not as many people and more aligned with what the president wants.

COLLINSON: I think that's more of a possibility in other agencies. And that is actually happening. One of the -- the great motivating force behind this attempt to flush out the bureaucracy is to replace career officials who Trump believes thwarted him in his first term and who many Republicans believe are liberals and thwart Republican presidents as a matter of course, with conservatives, with political appointees getting rid of the civil service levels, if you like.

I don't think there's a great amount of desire in the Republican Party to administer education at the federal level. They believe it is a state issue. What's interesting, though, I was looking at some of the figures the other day among the top ten states that benefit from Education Department funding, almost all of them are Republican states, because I think the reason is because they historically spend a lot less on education than Democratic states, a state like Maryland, for example, which is run by Democrats and which is well known for the quality of its education.

So while they believe they're getting rid of liberals in the highest echelons of government, they may actually end up hurting students in Republican states more than the students in Democratic states.

FOSTER: Okay, Stephen Collinson, I really appreciate your analysis as ever. Thank you.

COLLINSON: Thanks.

FOSTER: Peace in Gaza seems a long way off right now. The devastated territory is under siege once again after the Israel-Hamas ceasefire was shattered this week. Israeli airstrikes have killed at least 85 people over the past day. That's according to the Palestinian health ministry. Israel is blaming Hamas for the renewed fighting, saying it refused to accept new ceasefire terms.

The militant group is responding to the new Israeli attacks, firing three rockets at Israel. Israel's military says one was intercepted and two others fell in open area. The renewed fighting is sparking fury from protesters in Israel accusing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of restarting the war for political reasons.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us now from Tel Aviv.

What's the atmosphere like today, Jeremy?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, there is certainly some opposition in Israel to the restarting of the war. But the Israeli prime minister is unbowed in the face of that opposition and certainly continuing to stay the course, which means ramping up Israel's military attacks on the Gaza Strip, not only in terms of airstrikes, which have killed 85 people just today alone, bringing the total death toll of just the last couple of days to over 500 people who have been killed, but also ramping up actions on the ground.

We've seen the Israeli military not only pushing in to that Netzarim corridor separating northern Gaza from the rest of the Gaza Strip, but also now pushing into the northwestern corner of Gaza, which could set up a potential effort by Israel to encircle the northern portion of the Gaza Strip once again, because it is and has historically been a Hamas stronghold.

As for southern Gaza, we are now seeing Israeli troops also carrying out ground operations in a refugee camp that is part of the of Rafah City in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.

[15:10:01]

And this is exactly what we had expected to take place as the Israeli prime minister launched those massive strikes on Gaza earlier this week, making clear that Israel would continue to ramp up its military operations, continue to ramp up its attacks on the Gaza strip every single day until Hamas agrees to release more hostages. And that is exactly what we are seeing play out.

The question we have now is, at what point will those ground operations turn into something much larger that we have been anticipating, where you could see some 50,000 Israeli troops going into combat in Gaza, likely with a focus on northern Gaza, but probably operating across the strip.

And we are already seeing the ways in which the Israeli military is laying the groundwork for that, not only with those operations I just mentioned, but also dropping fliers on certain areas, ordering the evacuation of tens of thousands of Palestinians. This is, of course, a movie that we have seen all too many times before, the forced displacement of people. And also, of course, these attacks, which are resulting in a very, very heavy civilian death toll as Israel ramps up these attacks -- Max.

FOSTER: Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv, thank you.

Now to the latest in Russia's war in Ukraine. Moscow and Kyiv both accuse each other of attacks overnight. Among the reported targets, residential buildings in Ukraine and a Russian military airfield.

Today, Mr. Zelenskyy was shoring up allied support in Norway, meeting with its prime minister and appearing on a video call before an E.U. meeting in Brussels. Further ceasefire talks between the U.S. and Russia are planned early next week in Saudi Arabia.

CNN's Sebastian Shukla is in Berlin.

I mean, what was the key development today, Sebastian?

SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN PRODUCER: Yeah. Well, Max, as you mentioned, Zelenskyy has been on this other tour de force of Europe trying to shore up support and most importantly for Ukraine weapons, especially in the light of what appears to be this step back from the White House in terms of supporting Europe, but also then also going on to support Zelenskyy and -- and Ukraine. He started his day by addressing the European council leaders by saying, look guys, you really need to pass this 5 billion euros of funding in order to purchase more shells that you can then give to Ukraine. It's something Ukraine is obviously desperately short of ammunition as it looks to halt and hold the line, and advancing Russian forces in the east.

But I want you to take a listen to, Max, about a little bit of what President Zelenskyy had to say when it came to that meeting and conversation he had on the phone with Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Yesterday, I had a productive conversation with president Trump. From the very, very beginning, Ukraine has been advocating for what we are discussing now, an end to attack on energy and infrastructure, and ceasefire at sea. And we continue to support these efforts. Putin must stop making unnecessary demands that only prolong the war and must start fulfilling what he promises the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHUKLA: So, Max, you can hear there that President Zelenskyy is talking about fulfilling promises. And those promises, obviously, he's talking there about the 30-day ceasefire agreement that was proposed and put to President Putin, which he said, yes, but no. And here are my long list of reasons why.

What President Zelenskyy said today and what we learned is that Ukrainian negotiators will also be in Saudi Arabia for these talks, but they are not going to be in the room with the Russians and the Americans. There will be a form of shuttle diplomacy, as Zelenskyy called it, where the Americans will talk to the Ukrainians and then the Americans will talk to the Russians on behalf of the Ukrainians, too.

We also had a little bit of a glimpse, Max, about the situation with the phone call, with Trump, with the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, which is under control of Russian forces but is one of Europe's biggest nuclear power plants.

There was some confusion over what exactly was said in the call between the two. What Zelenskyy clarified today is that there were no substantive discussions about what or who will control the power plant and what the U.S. involvement in it in a future peace agreement may be -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay. So thank you so much for bringing us that from Berlin. We're going to take you now to Turkey. Protests ramping up over the detention of a key rival of President Tayyip Erdogan.

These are the latest scenes we've been showing you over the couple of days, how these have been ramping up. Thousands back on the streets of Istanbul again, as you can see, despite a four-day ban on political gatherings and the police are gathered there in full force, you can see to the left of the screen.

Obviously, the authorities allowing these protests for now, but people are questioning for how long.

[15:15:04]

Istanbul's popular mayor was arrested on Wednesday before his party was set to nominate him as the next presidential candidate. Ekrem Imamoglu posted on social media today, actually calling on his nation to unite, urging the judiciary to take a stand. Experts say his arrest is aimed at removing challenges to Mr. Erdogan ahead of the next election.

After two years in Taliban custody, an American man is on his way home. Qatar mediated the negotiations between the U.S. and the Taliban for the release of George Glezmann. The Afghan militants have been holding the 66 year old for the last two years. Glezmann, a mechanic for Delta Airlines, was in Kabul as a tourist, a U.S. official tells CNN no one was exchanged for Glezmann's release.

Now, still to come, a heavyweight legal fight over mass deportations. The Trump administration faces off against a U.S. federal judge. Will it comply with his court order?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: A major legal standoff between the White House and a federal judge over deportation flights in a showdown that could signal just how far Donald Trump is willing to go to extend his executive authority. A key deadline from U.S. District Judge James Boasberg passed a few hours ago. The judge once again asked the Justice Department to provide more details about last weekend's deportation of hundreds of alleged gang members from the U.S. to El Salvador.

The Trump administration invoked an obscure 18th century law used to detain or deport nationals of an enemy nation during wartime. Devastated families in the United States are pushing back, insisting their loved ones are being wrongly accused.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAANNELYS PARRA MORILLO, WIFE OF MAN DEPORTED FROM U.S. (through translator): The only thing I want -- what I wish for is for investigations to be conducted before taking people away, that they look into backgrounds so that innocent people aren't taken without reviewing them properly, because not everyone is part of the Tren de Aragua, no, not everyone, even if they have tattoos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Our crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins us.

I mean, this is so fundamental, isn't it, and profound that an executive would ignore a judge? Is there any suggestion that they're going to respond to this deadline?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Max, right now, we just don't know what has happened because it's very possible that the answers that the judge has demanded, the Justice Department, the Trump administration, provide about these flights on Saturday, carrying migrants out of the country that those answers could have been sent to the court under seal. So, not for public consumption. And we just can't see those records.

They do have an option, the Justice Department does have an option that the judge provided for them, where they could also protect information under an argument that they are state secrets, information about who was on those flights, why they were being removed.

But there is a real tension here until we get an answer from somewhere. Either the court, from the parties, the people who are representing these migrants who have sued, or from the Justice Department themselves saying, did you comply? And is there a situation here where the Trump administration would be willing just to disobey a judge, to not send in the answers or any court filing, meeting a deadline at noon today, as the judge had said, we just don't know where that goes. But there has been a lot of political rhetoric around this, with Donald Trump himself criticizing the judge with legal arguments in the court records, saying the judge shouldn't have authority to overstep the executive.

But do they take it that far in this judge's courtroom to actually not send in the document by noon today? I don't have an answer yet, but we will be continuing to follow this. There's a hearing indeed tomorrow. FOSTER: Yeah. I mean, you know, on one level, you know, a small piece

of information, arguably, but on such a profound level, if it doesn't actually get passed on.

Katelyn, thank you so much.

Most of the migrants sent by the U.S. to a notorious prison in El Salvador are Venezuelan, prompting Venezuela's leader Nicolas Maduro to call the deportation a kidnapping. He's demanding the return of the deportees, who he says were denied their rights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT: Those people, for God's sake, we ask you to open President Nayib Bukele's understanding and not to be an accomplice to this cruelty that Nayib Bukele not be an accomplice to this kidnapping, because our boys did not commit any crime in the United States. None.

They were not taken to any trial. They were not given the right to defense, the right to due process. They were deceived, handcuffed, put on a plane, kidnapped, and sent to a concentration camp in El Salvador.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: A French official says a researcher was denied entry and expelled from the United States because authorities found comments about President Trump on his phone. The researcher was traveling to a conference near Houston, Texas. A French minister said U.S. authorities found messages he'd shared with his friends and colleagues about the Trump administration.

Melissa Bell has more from Paris.

I mean, what was in the messages? Do we know?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: CNN has been learning more about the case of a French researcher who was apparently denied entry to the United States earlier this month on the basis of exchanges that were found on his phone critical of the Trump administration and its policies towards academic research. Now we're learning more about the case from France's higher education and research minister, who's been speaking out very strongly about the case, saying that these were messages that were allegedly voicing a personal opinion on the part of the researcher and shared with friends and colleagues.

This is a minister, by the way, who's been very critical of the Trump administration's attitude towards scientific research, urging American scientists to come and seek refuge here in France.

Tonight, though, it is about this particular case of a French citizen turned back that he's been speaking out. CNN has also reached out to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Service for comment. What we've received back is an explanation that at the border, people can be searched and anything that raises flags can then be investigated, but denying that any such decisions would ever be made on a political basis.

And yet what we have here is the case of a researcher who appears to have been denied entry for just that.

Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Still to come, political division is increasingly driving the momentum of Tesla's stock prices. We'll take a look at what it means for the company's future.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:51]

FOSTER: The battle over Teslas and its CEO, Elon Musk, is growing. Dealerships and owners continue to be targeted by violent vandalism. And for the first time ever, there's been a global drop in sales of the popular electric vehicles. The drop in sales has even extended to the used Tesla market.

At the start of the issue, at the heart of the issue, a growing political divide thanks to Elon Musk's key role in the Trump administration and slashing government services, some Democrats are saying goodbye to their Teslas as Republicans rally behind the tech billionaire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): This is going to be my last, last trip in this car.

(MUSIC)

HOWARD LUTNICK, U.S. SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: I think if you want to learn something on this show tonight, buy Tesla. It's unbelievable that this guy stock is this cheap. It will never be this cheap again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, in recent weeks, the once bullish stock pick has taken a pretty big hit.

Let's check how Tesla's price is faring. Today. So down nearly 1 percent. And that's just in a day. But it does mark a trend.

[15:30:03]

Brian Moody is with us. He's the senior editor for "Autotrader" and "Kelley Blue Book".

I mean, what -- thanks for joining us. But you know, what is those videos we were watching there? Do they speak to what's happening here?

BRIAN MOODY, SENIOR EDITOR, AUTORADER AND KELLEY BLUE BOOK: Well, they speak to a small portion of what's happening, but the truth is that Tesla has been such a dominant part of the electric car market for so long, really, we've seen declining sales for new Teslas since February of 2023. So since 2023, we now see them sell a little bit less in the -- in the year 2024.

And the reason for that is so many different options. There used to be only a few choices for electric cars. Now there's an abundance of cars available that are electric. Plus, remember Tesla did reduce their prices some time back on new cars and that does have an impact on the used car market.

FOSTER: And there are tensions in the global economy which all companies are suffering from, aren't there as well.

But I want to read you this from Ike Silver, assistant professor of marketing at USC. He told this to CNN. The noise, the protests make it seem as if the brand is sort of dropping, but the brand is strengthening amongst a different target audience, which is people on the right. The question is whether the number of new customers being brought in on the right outweigh the number of angry customers who are leaving on the left.

It's not as if people on the right weren't buying Teslas before. The market has shrunk, though if he's right.

MOODY: Well, that market could shrink. But remember, there's something that if we go back in time, if you wanted a nice, luxurious, quick, good looking electric car, go back several years and Tesla was one of the few choices. Today, you have brands like Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Kia, many others offering that same type of vehicle with the same or similar features. Combine that with the idea that many Teslas haven't changed their basic look or function in quite some time, and that's probably more likely whats contributing to this.

We also know that electric cars, on the whole, tend to depreciate a little bit more rapidly than hybrid or gasoline only powered cars.

FOSTER: What are the car dealers saying to you? Because obviously normally they would talk about all of the details of the car. You know the cost. You know what it can do, all of that, the technical details.

But now, they clearly are answering questions about politics. It says a lot about the importance of a brand of a car, doesn't it?

MOODY: It does. And I'll tell you one thing that's always something to look for when you look at new cars, whether it's Tesla or whatever brand. The more incentives they're offering, such as attractive leases or low financing, that usually indicates that that particular model is not selling as well as they would like.

So if you're seeing a lot of those types of deals on a specific type of car, whether its brand or model, that's a good indication that they're trying to move those and put some money behind it to keep up with market demand.

FOSTER: This second hand market, which seems to be falling quicker than the first hand market, we haven't really got the numbers, have we, on first hand sales. That's very damaging for any car brand, isn't it, if the second hand sales are going down quickly.

MOODY: Yes, it can be. And one of the problems with it for Tesla is remember when they were commanding 50 percent or more of the market, there's just such an abundance of Tesla vehicles. So when you have an abundance of anything that's going to reduce its value in the open marketplace.

So if you were to look at another brand of electric car and just go back several years, there would be very few of those. With Tesla, there's very many of those cars that are in the used market because that's what was there to begin with. And that's how these cyclical things work.

When they're new, they keep them, they lease them, and then they become part of the used market and overabundance of something devalues it in the open marketplace.

FOSTER: Brian Moody, really appreciate your thoughts on your industry going through this extraordinary moment, really, with one of its brands.

The European Union holding off on new retaliatory tariffs on U.S. goods. The tariffs on products like American whiskey had been set to take effect on April the 1st, but it'll now be delayed until the middle of the month whilst Europe and the U.S. negotiate.

Anna is with us.

This does suggest that the U.S. is offering something, doesn't it?

ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's really unclear, but in the sort of great staring contest between the E.U. and the U.S., it does feel like the E.U. is blinking first here, and it is unclear exactly what they're getting. They are delaying just the first phase. It's a two phase process of their tariffs. They're delaying the first phase by two weeks.

So, moving it from April the 1st, as you said, to mid-April. And this means it will be after the so-called liberation day in the U.S., which is what President Trump is calling it. This is when he's going to implement what he's calling reciprocal tariffs, which will impact markets all over the world, plus sector tariffs like autos, which would really impact the E.U.

So the E.U. trade commissioner said there are two main reasons they're doing this. One is to give them a bit more time. So it's after that 2nd of April deadline. They'll know exactly what the U.S. is implementing and they can discuss it with their member states.

[15:35:01]

And secondly, it does give them more time to negotiate.

You have to wonder, though, Max, how much of this is also about them not liking that threat of 200 percent tariffs on European alcohol, champagne and wine.

FOSTER: Choosing April Fools Day as well.

STEWART: And choosing April Fools Day.

FOSTER: Avoiding that.

STEWART: Actually, President Trump said that was the day he wanted to pick for his so-called liberation day, but he didn't want people to think it was a giant joke. So actually, the president did think that one through.

FOSTER: Okay. Anna, thank you so much.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:38:37]

FOSTER: Is a ceasefire in Gaza out of reach? After more than 15 months of war, this week has shattered hopes of an imminent, lasting peace. After a short respite, the people in Gaza have been plunged back into misery as Benjamin Netanyahu resumes strikes. More than 500 people have been killed just this week.

That decision has also been met with anger by Israelis. Protesters have accused Netanyahu of restarting the war purely for political reasons.

For more, I want to bring in CNN military analyst, Colonel Cedric Leighton.

I mean, so many people are asking why Netanyahu is doing this. He seems to be doing it, you know, based in large part on his own authority.

I mean, what do you think?

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Max, I think that Prime Minister Netanyahu is looking at this as an opportunity not only to prosecute the war effort once more, but really to stay in power. And what he's trying to do is use the military, use the Israeli defense forces to, in essence, galvanize the Israeli nation against Hamas. That has worked up to a point in terms of prosecuting the war effort.

But the big problem with that is that Hamas has not gone away. They've been very evident in the hostage release efforts that have been conducted. The ceremonies that they've -- that they've held, and that is one of the things that has been, I think, a very troubling picture, not only from the standpoint of the optics of those particular things, but also a very troubling picture from the standpoint that it really shows the limits of Israeli military power.

And unfortunately, Prime Minister Netanyahu only seems to be wanting to use military power to conduct these operations.

FOSTER: Obviously, President Trump has been involved or his team has been involved in negotiations or, you know, pushing towards a ceasefire in the Middle East, also in Ukraine. I mean, both efforts, I mean, it's collapsed in the Middle East and even the partial ceasefire didn't work in Ukraine so far.

Obviously, as you know better than anyone, these are very complex things. They don't just happen. But is there a problem with the U.S. negotiation position here?

LEIGHTON: Well, I think there are several problems with it. Number one, a lot of people who have had experience with previous U.S. negotiating efforts in the Middle East, the cardinal rule has basically been you never speak directly to groups that are designated as terrorist groups.

So the fact that the U.S. conducted negotiations directly with Hamas, which seemed to contravene also the Israeli desires when it comes to the situation in Gaza that could have resulted in complications. Plus, the other factor with both Gaza and with Ukraine is that the experience level of the Trump negotiating team is actually very low. They've got experience in the private sector, in real estate and issues, you know, areas like that.

And of course, with the national security advisor and the secretary of state being previous members of Congress, they have legislative experience, but they really don't have the type of State Department experience that one would need in order to be very successful at this. And I think they also are misreading the opposite side. They're misreading the Russians in Ukraine, and they're misreading Hamas when it, you know, when it comes to the situation in Gaza.

FOSTER: Well, particular issue, isn't it, when you're negotiating effectively with President Putin, who is a very sophisticated negotiator, has very long term you know, perspective on all of these things and not that short term perspective that President Trump seems to have.

LEIGHTON: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think, you know, and if I can, you know, offer a critique of, you know, the -- my -- my country, the U.S., it is that we tend to have a very short term perspective anyways. And its exacerbated by activities by the Trump administration, which basically, like you mentioned, have a very short term, very transactional perspective on these kinds of things, these issues that need to be resolved in order to achieve lasting peace in either Gaza or Ukraine really require not only a thorough understanding of what these conflicts are all about, but they also require a long, drawn out process that, you know, works not only with the other side, but with allies as well.

And in all those cases, there seem to be fissures, you know, with -- with people on the opposite side as well as with allies. That's particularly noticeable in Ukraine. But I also believe that to be the case, in spite of the public show of unity with Israel at this time as well.

FOSTER: President Zelenskyy is also negotiating with President Trump, isn't he? He's clearly looked at this transactional style that President Trump has and he's working with that, you know, this idea that he wants security guarantees. Trump wants something back for that.

What do you think of this sort of strategy that's evolving where Ukraine hands over assets like minerals and nuclear power plants in order to make them American and by effect, making sure America protects those areas of the country.

LEIGHTON: Yeah. You know, it's very interesting, Max, when you look at this -- at this effort. I think President Zelenskyy is a very astute, student of his opposite number, whoever it may be, whether it's Trump or whether it's Putin. And I think he's learned from previous missteps, missteps from before the Russian invasion of February 2022.

And when it comes to his relationship with President Trump, he knows that there are certain lines that he finds -- keeps finding them that, you know, in his in his meetings with -- with President Trump. But he understands now, I think that there is this transactional nature. And one of the efforts, you know, of course, is to draw the United States into a position where it will be seen as the guarantor and the protector of Ukraine, the United States and the European powers.

So that's Zelenskyy's main goal. He knows he can't do this for -- for the long term.

[15:45:05]

In other words, he can't save Ukraine by himself. He can't have the Ukrainians stand alone and be able to basically deal with the with the Russians one on one. So he knows he needs help and his best efforts, I think, are geared to making a -- some type of concession to countries that can be protective forces, such as the United States. And he hopes to draw them in into that, that protective web. And if he gets that protective web, he hopes that that will protect Ukraine much better than previous agreements like the Minsk agreement did when it, you know, when it came to previous arrangements that were made between all of the powers and Ukraine.

FOSTER: It's a whole new form of diplomacy. It feels like, isn't it? Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you so much for bringing us your perspective on that.

Back to the U.S., where President Donald Trump's immigration policies are just one of the many issues sparking anger at town halls held by lawmakers across the U.S. while Republican members of Congress have faced strong backlash at home over his actions, some Democratic lawmakers are also feeling the frustration from constituents.

CNN's Brian Todd reports now from Washington. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to see hell now.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Democratic Congressman Glenn Ivey got a bracing reminder that these days in a town hall, even a friendly crowd can turn on you quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not interested in hearing that you are in the minority. We know that. We want you to show some of the backbone and strategic brilliance that Mitch McConnell would have in the minority.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want you to show fight and you are not fighting.

TODD: I asked Ivey about the accusation that he and other Democrats aren't fighting hard enough.

REP. GLENN IVEY (D-MD): We got to fight to win. And you know, I don't know that expressing anger necessarily is the way to do that per se, especially if you're trying to win over persuadable voters.

TODD: That angry brush back in Forestville, Maryland, one of many similar scenes playing out in town halls across the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can go F themselves is how I feel about it.

TODD: In New York state where Democratic Congressman Paul Tonko got an earful over President Trump's deportations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have people being transferred, El Salvadorian gulags without due process of law. Have we reached the lead (ph) line, sir? Have we reached the red line?

HANS NICHOLS, CO-AUTHOR, AXIOS HILL LEADERS: There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of stray voltage. And some of that stray voltage is getting released at these town halls.

TODD: And not just with Democrats. At a Republican town hall in Nebraska, some pent up outrage pops.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you stand up for?

TODD: In North Carolina, Republican Congressman Chuck Edwards hears it over President Trump's global ambitions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you support the annexation of Canada and or Greenland? And this is a yes or no question. I don't want you to -- I don't want you to wander off into the woods. I don't want to hear about your latest week in your office.

TODD: In Arizona, Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego is berated by a constituent about his party's leadership. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to go back and talk with Senate Democrats and get a new leader.

TODD: That's a common complaint. A sentiment that Democrats were sold out by Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, who recently voted in favor of the Republican led spending bill. Schumer himself hasn't held any recent town halls and says he has rescheduled some book tour events over security concerns, so voters simply vent.

Hasn't he become a lightning rod for the idea that the Democrats aren't fighting hard enough?

NICHOLS: Oh, sure, he's absolutely a lightning rod for that. That's like he feels that every day. But Chuck Schumer is in power. At least he's in charge of his caucus right now.

TODD: Still, Glenn Ivey felt significant pressure regarding Schumer.

IVEY: He's done a lot of great things. But I'm afraid that it may be time for the Senate Democrats to pick new leadership as we move forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): What might it take to tamp down some of this anger among voters at town halls? Analyst Hans Nichols says he doesn't really see it tamping down anytime soon. In his words, it's not like you can take voters and put them on a naughty step and have them take a time out. The only thing he thinks might calm things down is some other national crisis that might distract voters.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

FOSTER: Still to come, today is the International Day of Happiness. We'll take a look at where the happiest people are in the world and why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:51:59]

FOSTER: Today is the U.N.'s International Day of Happiness. So we wanted to know who are the most happy people in the world. Well, for the eighth year in a row, Finland has been named the happiest country. And like in hockey and curling, the Nordic countries dominate at bliss.

The U.S. earned its lowest ranking yet at 24th place. The U.K.'s 23rd, Germany's 22nd. This is all according to the world happiness report.

Joining me now is Finnish scholar Frank Martela. He's written about why Finland and other Nordic countries are so happy. But wait for the title of his book. It is "Stop Chasing Happiness: A Pessimist Guide to a Good Life", which is released today, which is fortuitous.

That must have made you happy, at least for a pessimist. FRANK MARTELA, AUTHOR, "STOP CHASING HAPPINESS": Yes. That indeed

made me -- made me happy, to get the book finally out.

FOSTER: Yes. So in terms, let's just talk about the index. First of all, let's just -- tell us what it measures.

MARTELA: So it actually measures the happiness by one simple question. So question is that think about your life from a scale from 0 to 10, where zero is the worst possible life and ten is the best possible life. Where would you put yourself on this kind of scale?

So that's a question that they asked from like more than 130 different countries, this representative sample. And then they calculate averages for every country. And then they put the countries on a ranking based on that. So, one simple question.

FOSTER: And Finland obviously ranking top. But I know there's also other research to say they're not the smiliest people. So explain that one.

MARTELA: Yes. So the kind of question that they're asking is more about like this life, general life evaluation. So when you stop and think about your life, how satisfied are you with it? But then when there's other surveys that ask about, like, how much did you smile today or how much did you experience joy today in those kind of indexes? Finland doesn't tend to be on the first place. Actually, Finland is usually the worst performing Nordic country in those kind of indexes.

FOSTER: That's interesting, isn't it? So happiness isn't necessarily something that you express all the time, but I guess if you are generally happy, you wouldn't be smiling all the time, because that's just when you're really happy.

In terms of the link with the other Nordic nations, obviously they're traditionally liberal, aren't they? Do you think that's linked to this?

MARTELA: Yeah, I think like one of the key reasons that the Nordic countries seem to be so happy is about like, you know, very well functioning Democratic institutions. So free speech, free elections, low levels of corruption, strong rule of law. All of these are characteristics that that are like whenever there's an index about these things, the Nordic countries tend to top those indexes. And these also tend to be the characteristics that predict which countries are performing better on these kind of happiness indexes.

FOSTER: So democracy makes them happy.

MARTELA: Yes. I guess it provides them a sense of freedom of choice that they feel that they're able to make better choices about how they live their lives. But another thing is actually also that the Nordic countries are known for their relatively extensive welfare benefits. So free health care, unemployment benefits, maternity and paternity leaves and so forth. And these are also factors that have been shown by research to predict higher levels of happiness. FOSTER: So money does make you happy. So there's, you know,

undermining that sort of theory that it doesn't make you happy, but it does to some extent. Certainly in Nordic nations.

But what's interesting is the U.S. has dropped whilst the Nordic nations have risen. Do you think that's linked to politics too?

MARTELA: I would think so because as I said, like, you know, this well-functioning Democratic institutions, welfare benefits, but also trust in each other and trust in institutions are factors that tend to predict high levels of happiness. And when you look at indexes of trust in the U.S., we know that they have been going down. People trust each other less. There's more and more polarization, less trust in institutions.

So all of these are factors that probably have contributed to the decline of the U.S. happiness.

FOSTER: Frank Martela, really thank you for joining us today from Helsinki, happiest city in the world.

MARTELA: Thank you.

FOSTER: Thanks for joining us.

I'm Max Foster. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up after the break, but you have to wait to find out who's fronting it today.