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CNN International: Hegseth Insists Yemen Chat Didn't Contain "War Plans"; Trump Announces 25 Percent Auto Tariffs; Macron Hosts Zelenskyy in Paris; France Pledges $2.1B Support for Ukraine; International Turkish Student Arrested; China's Cyberattacks Underreported Threats. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired March 26, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all over the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, D.C.

Just ahead this hour, messages reveal that the U.S. defense secretary shared the timing, the targets, and the weapons planned to strike Yemen in an unsecured group chat. Donald Trump announces 25 percent tariffs on all cars built outside the United States and. Emmanuel Macron says Russia cannot dictate the terms of peace, as Ukraine's President Zelenskyy arrives in Paris.

The Trump administration grappling with newly released text messages describing a play-by-play account about us strikes underway at the time on Houthis targets in Yemen. Weapon systems, targets, aircraft, and missile types were made public after the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic was inadvertently added to that group chat. President Trump spoke on this just a few months ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think it's all a witch hunt, that's all. I think it's a witch hunt. I wasn't involved with it. I don't -- I wasn't there. But I can tell you the result is unbelievable because the Houthis are looking to do something. They want to know how do we stop -- how do -- can we have peace? The Houthis want peace because they're getting the hell knocked out of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: The president once again defended his secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, who insists the information was not classified.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: There's no units, no locations, no routes, no flight paths, no sources, no methods. No classified information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: However, people I've spoken to inside the Pentagon are saying quite the opposite. A senior U.S. military official currently serving told me that based on the information as presented, he, quote, "does not see any way in which the information is not classified" because it includes information on targets, timing, weapons, packages, and platforms, and even information on the identity of a human target.

I reached out to a senior former military official who served under President Trump previously, who put it like this. Until the strike goes, it's absolutely classified as the lives of our pilots depend on secrecy. Why is that? Because knowing of a strike in advance would allow an adversary to evacuate targets, including command and control centers, communication sites, and firing positions, and crucially to mass anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems, which could overwhelm us pilots.

However, the denials keep coming. This from the Director of National Intelligence on Capitol Hill today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TULSI GABBARD, U.S. DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: The conversation was candid and sensitive, but as the president national security adviser stated, no classified information was shared. There were no sources, methods, locations, or war plans that were shared.

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL), U.S. HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: This text message is clearly classified information. Secretary Hegseth has disclosed military plans as well as classified information. He needs to resign immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We are going to hear from Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi in just a moment, but even stronger language came from Texas Democratic Congressman Joaquin Castro.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): The idea that this information, if it was presented to our committee, would not be classified, you all know, is a lie. That's ridiculous. I've seen things much less sensitive be presented to us with high classification. And to say that it isn't is a lie to the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: A lie to the country, he says. Joining us now, our Chief National Security Correspondent Alex Marquardt. Despite all this, the administration isn't moving. I mean, is -- are there any signs, green shoots of some sort of investigation?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There is. The only green shoot, and that's a great way of putting it, is actually on Capitol Hill, at the Senate Armed Service Committee, Roger Wicker, the Republican chairman, he wants to see an investigation by the inspector general of the Defense Department. So, that's really the only indication of anybody digging in deeper, because, of course, Republicans control both houses of Congress. On the executive branch side, no indication, nothing from the FBI, nothing from DOJ.

And here we are after these two remarkable days of testimony and hearings, first in the Senate and in the House. And, Jim, we appear to be at something of an impasse where you have mostly Democrats shouting from the rooftop, of course, this is classified information.

[18:05:00]

A lot of Republicans allowing for the fact that a real mistake was made, but not really calling for any kind of a real serious investigation. And so, the administration really pushing back on this notion that anything included was classified and also taking issue with the descriptor that The Atlantic first used of war plans. That's real quibbling right there. Because what we see in these text messages specifically from the secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, is very sensitive detail around the plans for this series of strikes, for this attack on March 15th against the Houthis in Yemen.

And when you look at that and you speak with experts and officials like you have, like I have, former officials, everyone says that this kind of planning, as Hegseth laid it out, absolutely is and would be considered classified information.

When that was put to Ratcliffe, the CIA director, and Gabbard, the director of national intelligence, they essentially said, well, you've got to talk to Hegseth. It's his classified information. And he, technically, Jim has the power to declassify it.

But CNN did speak with Mark Warner, that the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee just a short time ago, and he pointed to the deliberations, the debate that was taking place in that conversation saying that is absolutely the kind of thing that foreign adversaries would want to see. Here's a little bit more of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): The policy dispute between the vice president and the president and the back and forth, that's the kind of information that intelligence services literally Russia or China would kill for. Having that kind of exposure to private conversations. Second, but even more troubling, the idea that the specific plans of when an attack was going to be launched against the Houthis and the ramifications of that, there is no way in hell that that's not classified information. And anybody who denies that is either ignorant or trying to obfuscate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: And we heard the same thing just moments ago from his counterpart on the House Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes. Again, it is mainly Democrats who are saying this? Warner, just moments ago sent an e-mail to the FBI director, Kash Patel, asking for an update on whether he plans to carry out an investigation. But right now, Jim, no sign that the FBI's going to do that. SCIUTTO: Listen, in a different time there might be everything is so weaponized and so tribal right now. You see -- well, you see him circling the wagons. Thanks so much, Alex Marquardt.

The Trump administration's efforts to downplay the leak of U.S. military attack plans stand in sharp contrast to what happened last month when news leaked of planned Immigration and Custom Enforcement or ICE operations here in this country. This followed reports in the L.A. Times about upcoming ICE operations, specifically in Southern California. Have a listen to what the border czar, as he is known, Tom Homan said at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, U.S. BORDER CZAR: It is just not, you know, giving the bad guys a heads up so they can escape apprehension, right, arresting -- and, you know, giving, you know, the Venezuela gang a heads up so we can't arrest them, you're putting officer's lives at risk. It's only a matter of time. If we walk into a place where there's going to be a bad guy that doesn't care, he is going to be sitting and wait for the officers to show up and ambush them. This is not a game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: For more. I'm joined now by Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi. He's a member of the House Intelligence Committee who you hear heard in that hearing just a few moments ago. Thanks so much for taking the time.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: First, let me ask you a basic question. Did putting this information on an insecure platform and then shared with the journalist put U.S. service members lives potentially at risk?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Oh, absolutely. You know, basically what you're doing when you put this information on the platform is you're making it potentially vulnerable to surveillance by adversaries and potentially, ultimately, the Houthis in this case.

Remember, just to refresh your viewers' recollection, you know, Secretary Hegseth is basically telling what -- telling people what's going to happen hours in advance of the attack. So, he says, you know, at 12:15 p.m. Eastern Time, you know, F-18s are taking off in the first strike. And he also tells people when they are about to arrive. So, if you are the Houthis, for instance, they could get ready with their surface to air missile systems and they have sophisticated ones and that would be very dangerous for our pilots.

SCIUTTO: You are calling for an investigation. Republicans don't seem to have appetite. They're circling the wagons, as we said. So, what do Dems do? What do Democrats do in that situation? Do you shout from the rooftops but expect no action?

[18:10:00] KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I think that the interesting thing here is I think a lot of credit goes to the media and Jeff Goldberg, obviously, who has a lot of information about this particular chat and disclosed it this morning, and I think raised a lot of eyebrows on both sides, by the way. I sensed that even Republicans were chasing (ph) by what they saw.

Well, look, I think the reason we're talking about this is because the public is focused on it. We have to continue to shine a light on this particular issue. Why? Because when people don't take accountability and then fix what went wrong, it's going to happen again. And the next time it happens, lives could be lost. Not only that, but, you know, I got a text message from a mom of a sailor who reminded me that her son had received a notice not to embed in Signal chats, the very type of information that Pete Hegseth did. And if he had done what Pete Hegseth did, he would be court marshaled or worse.

And so, you know, you're looking at junior officers who are looking up at Hegseth and I fear that they might take that as a cue to use Signal or WhatsApp or, you know, God forbid, SMS to transmit classified information.

SCIUTTO: Yes. There's been reporting that the Pentagon put out quite a wide notice just a couple of weeks ago about the insecurity of the Signal app. One other part of this text chain was that you had senior -- the most senior U.S. officials disparaging U.S. allies. You had that one comment in there about how pathetic the Europeans are. What is the state of America's relationship with its closest allies, and in your view is the damage done, not just from this interaction, but the tariffs Trump diminishing the importance of NATO, a whole host of things? Is it irreparable damage in your view?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: It's not irreparable, but it's not -- this damage isn't great. I mean, basically what you're doing is you're pushing away your allies and you're getting your adversaries very happy. And what I mean by that is you're showing weakness. When you show weakness, you invite aggression. And when you invite aggression, you could have hostilities. And hostilities could lead to conflict.

And so, we're basically in a situation where we are -- in my opinion, we are sliding closer to potential conflicts, whether in the Indo- Pacific or whether in Europe. And we can ill afford either.

SCIUTTO: There are -- as you know, there's a new announcement today from President Trump that he is imposing auto tariffs of 25 percent on all autos made outside the U.S. He claims, and he claimed again yesterday, prices are falling and that all the costs of these tariffs will be borne by someone else, outside the country. What are your constituents telling you?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: No. That's not -- that's crazy. That's crazy talk. A tariff is a tax on Americans. That's what it is. And especially if you put blanket tariffs, as he has, with regard to, for instance, Canada or Mexico for numerous products, basically, it's an instant tax on Americans that they then pass -- you know, if they're businesses, they might pass along to their consumers. If they are farmers, you know, they end up having higher input costs and they're not able to survive because of the higher input costs and the retaliatory tariffs. So, these are really bad moves on his part.

We are sliding toward a recession, Jim, that's what's happening right now. My small business constituents, I was a former small businessman. I like to say I signed the front of the check and the back of the check. My small business constituents are calling me. Most of them, by the way, voted for Trump and basically saying, you know, there's tremendous business uncertainty now. My prices are going up, investment is getting paused. We're heading to a recession. And so, that is kind of Donald Trump's economy at this point.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, we do appreciate you joining.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you so much, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, President Trump attempting perhaps to change the focus from the Signal scandal back to more familiar and friendlier ground, in his terms, tariffs. The president signed an executive order just a short time ago, as we referenced, placing 25 percent tariffs on all U.S. car imports. This is to take effect on April 2nd. Trump says the move will give a boost to the U.S. car industry and move manufacturing back to the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: This is very exciting to me. This is the automobile industry. And this will continue to spur growth like you haven't seen. Before I was elected, we were losing all of our plants, that were being built in Mexico and Canada and other places. Now, those plants largely have stopped and they're moving them to our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Trump was expected to make that announcement next week along with a broader plan for reciprocal tariffs on U.S. trading partners. He said today that he could reduce tariffs on China however in exchange for a deal on TikTok.

Stocks on Wall Street, they fell across the board as investors braced for that tariffs announcement. The tech heavy NASDAQ in particular fell more than 2 percent, as you see there.

Joining me now is Ron Kirk. He served as U.S. Trade Representative during the Obama administration. Ron, good to have you on

RON KIRK, FORMER U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: Jim, thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: Tell me what the impact of these tariffs will be. Let's begin on U.S. automakers.

KIRK: Well, Jim, what I don't understand about today's announcement is that one hand, the U.S. automatic makers en mass went to Washington, I guess, a little over a month ago to urge the president not to do this and he delayed it. And he delayed it for good reason. It's going to hurt our manufacturers, whether we -- whether Americans appreciate it or not, NAFTA has created an integrated manufacturing environment at all of North America, and a car made arguably in U.S. is really a car made in North America that will cross the border as much as eight times.

How you figure out where that's going to be taxed and when is going to be a headache for our manufacturers. But what is certain, it's going to drive up the cost of that automobile, as you heard the congressman saying, and we're going to be hitting American consumers at a time that they can least afford it.

SCIUTTO: The president says his goal is to move all the manufacturing back here to the U.S. So, in effect, to stop that kind of cross pollination across the borders, right, of America's trading partners, which by the way, as you know, was partly the result of a trade agreement he signed himself with Canada and Mexico in the first administration.

But is that goal possible? Is it possible to get us car makers to say, Hey, we're going to do it all at home now, forget you guys?

KIRK: You know, it's hard to -- what the president, I give him credit for it, is good at these very broad statements that have populous appeal. Of course, all of us want to see more jobs created back here at home. But the reality is, you know, these are massive vestments. They take years to make. There's a reason we have this integrated system is because we benefit from American innovation. American workers, Mexican labor, Canada's supply chain, all contribute to the making of these cars.

And the reality is we need to be working in concert with our strongest allies, whether it's Canada and Mexico or Europe, to confront an increasingly difficult partner like China and Russia. And this does nothing to do with that.

But it has accomplished two goals. It has quickly shifted the subject, which I think was the real goal of doing this today versus next week. I think the White House would like to be talking about anything other than that extraordinary security failure. But it also is just going to be not helpful to the American consumer. And as you noted, the markets have already spoken fairly unequivocally as to what they think about this.

SCIUTTO: Is there a way to repair the damage done to these trading relationships? When I speak to Canadian officials, they say, you know, the trust is broken. They got to find a new way forward with other trading partners. Doesn't mean they stop trading with the U.S., but that they will trade less with the U.S.

KIRK: Well, Jim, the one thing I've learned from business, and if you talk to any business leader on your show, they'll tell you the hardest customer to win back is the one that you push out the front door. And the reality, we are in a globally competitive world with other economies that frankly have admired our economy for all these years and they won't end on the game. And when we sort of put a hand up to our best allies and partners and make -- at worst, make it difficult to do business or make enemies of them, they have other options.

And all of America should be alarmed with the speech we heard from the new Canadian prime minister last year, when he began to very overtly court and talk about building a stronger relationship with the European Union.

[18:20:00]

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIRK: And we hear this not only from Canada, but Mexico and others. But it is not a good thing when our closest and longest allies now question whether or not they can count on the United States. And that is going to be difficult to repair.

SCIUTTO: In trade terms and increasingly in national security terms as well. Ron Kirk, former U.S. trade representative, we appreciate you joining.

KIRK: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, the French and Ukrainian presidents meet in Paris. What the two leaders are saying about the U.S. and Russia. Plus, why President Trump says the Kremlin might be dragging its feet on a ceasefire deal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. The French president, Emmanuel Macron, has announced more than $2 billion worth of additional military assistance to Ukraine. Macron made that announcement during a news conference alongside the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, in Paris. The two leaders chastised Russia for demanding last-minute concessions before it degrees to a ceasefire deal covering the Black Sea. U.S. President Donald Trump says Russia could be deliberately trying to delay a deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think that Russia wants to see an end to it, but it could be they're dragging their feet. I've done it over the years. You know, I don't want to sign a contract. I want to sort of stay in the game, but maybe I don't want to do it quite -- I'm not sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Bill Browder. Bill Browder, CEO of Hermitage Capital and head of the Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign. No friend of the Kremlin himself. He's campaigned for strict sanctions on Russia. Russia, we should note, has tried to have him arrested and extradited. Good to have you on sir. Thanks for joining.

BILL BROWDER, CEO, HERMITAGE CAPITAL AND HEAD OF GLOBAL MAGNITSKY JUSTICE CAMPAIGN: Great to be here.

SCIUTTO: As I listened to Trump there and remember his encounter with President Zelenskyy in the Oval Office, the difference is striking because while he says Russia is dragging its feet, he also seemed to commiserate a bit with Putin by saying, oh, yes, I've dragged my feet on deals as well. While he publicly berated Zelenskyy in the Oval Office and then held back U.S. military intelligence sharing, why isn't Trump applying equal pressure to Putin?

[18:25:00]

BROWDER: Well, that's a very good question. I mean, if you look at what's happened about two weeks ago, Volodymyr Zelenskyy in Saudi Arabia, agreed to an unconditional 30-day ceasefire. He agreed that with the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, and others. And then, the secretary of State said the balls in Putin's court. And after that, everybody was waiting for Putin on the phone call with President Trump to agree to his part of this 30-day ceasefire. And Putin refused. I mean, it's as simple as that.

And so, in my mind, this is really a big, you know, thumb to the nose from Vladimir Putin to the United States and to Donald Trump. This is not him agreeing to anything. And I don't know why Donald Trump is apologizing on behalf of Putin. But you're absolutely right, it was a complete humiliation of Volodymyr Zelenskyy for doing nothing. And we have just the opposite with Vladimir Putin. It doesn't make any sense.

SCIUTTO: Trump has said at times that if need be, he will impose significant new economic pressure on Russia, sanctions. But does the U.S. retain significant additional power to impose such economic pressure, or has the U.S. already expended most of its financial tools?

BROWDER: Well, I think the U.S. has expended all of its financial tools with one big exception, which is if the U.S. were to decide they wanted to embargo the export of Russian oil, that would bring Russia to its knees. But in doing so that would risk pushing up the oil price for significantly, and that's the reason it hasn't been done before.

I mean, believe me, everybody has been looking at every possible way of curtailing money going into Putin's pocket. And so, that's the last thing that could be done. And I kind of doubt that that would be done by Trump or any other administration because there's so many other considerations, including U.S. inflation.

And so, the -- really, the other way that Trump, if he wanted to bring Putin to the table, would be to triple down on arms to Ukraine. If Ukraine had more arms and if they had arms that were unrestricted, in other words, they could fire missiles into Russia, that would bring Putin to the table very quickly.

SCIUTTO: It seems that this administration is moving the opposite direction as it comes to military assistance. So, I wonder if you get to a situation where Trump wants a deal so badly, not just to end the war but to fulfill this dream of somehow normalizing relations with Russia, building economic deals with Russia, et cetera, but you get to a point where Trump has his proposal to get that, but Ukraine and Europe really say this deal is not good enough. In your view, can they say no?

BROWDER: They can absolutely say no, and they will say no. Trump doesn't have the power to force a surrender of Ukraine. Ukrainians are not going to surrender because they know what happens when Russia occupies their country. We saw it in Bucha. You remember those images where all the women were gang raped, all the men were shot in the back of the head and buried in shallow graves, and all the children were kidnapped. And the Ukrainians would rather fight than basically surrender and to live in that hell.

And so, the Ukrainians will fight, and the Europeans will support the Ukrainians because the Europeans understand that if Putin were to succeed in Ukraine, he would then move on to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, or Poland. And for them it's a fight on their continent. And that's something that would bring a lot of support for Ukraine.

And so, it would seriously harm Ukraine if America pulled out, if America said, no more military aid, no more intelligence, et cetera. But Ukraine wouldn't surrender.

SCIUTTO: Before we go, I wonder what your reaction was to seeing President Trump's Russia envoy, Steve Witkoff, parrot not just one, not just two, but virtually every Russian talking point about Ukraine and the Russian invasion of Ukraine, right up to saying that Ukraine, is in effect, a false country because that's of course the false history that Vladimir Putin is used to try to justify the invasion.

In your view, has the U.S. put itself on Russia's side of this war? I mean, when you have a U.S. envoy parroting the justification for the war.

BROWDER: You know, I've spent the last 15 years of my life fighting against Vladimir Putin, trying to get sanctions imposed, trying to contain Russia, and I've been working around the world, and for almost all of that time, the United States has been my most stalwart ally. And now, we've -- now, we found ourselves in a situation where the U.S. has flipped sides and it's truly heartbreaking for me to see and perplexing for me to see.

[18:30:00]

And it's -- we're in unknown territory as far as I'm concerned, and it's hard to even imagine the implications of all these changes.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Unknown territory with unknown consequences. Bill Brower, head of the Magnitsky Justice Campaign, CEO of Hermitage Capital, thanks so much.

BROWDER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, U.S. Immigration Authorities detained a Turkish graduate student on a legal visa, student's visa here to the U.S. in Massachusetts. You see her there, in the lower left-hand side of your screen. We're going to have the details of what is truly a shocking moment to witness.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Sciutto. And here are more international headlines we're watching today. U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says his posts on a group chat contained no classified information. The Atlantic revealed today that Hegseth posted the timing, the targets on strikes in Yemen prior to and during those operations. Sources tell CNN that information was classified when he shared it. Hegseth says he was just keeping members of the administration informed.

Brazil Supreme Court has ruled that the country's former president, Jair Bolsonaro, will stand trial on coup charges. Those charges related to Bolsonaro's alleged plot to overturn the 2022 election results. He was among 34 people charged last month with five crimes, including attempting a coup d'etat.

Prosecutors alleged part of the plan potentially included the assassination of the elected president, Lula da Silva, along with his vice president and administer of the Supreme Court. Bolsonaro denies any wrongdoing.

[18:35:00]

Plans for a high-level U.S. trip to Greenland have changed, become somewhat more low profile. Vice President J. D. Vance, however, will now accompany his wife to the island later this week. A few days ago, the White House said Usha Vance, his wife, would go there just to attend a dog sled race. Now, the second couple is expected to visit a U.S. military base on the Danish territory. Greenland's prime minister has slammed the trip and Mr. Trump's threats to annex the island.

Well, protest is now underway at Tufts University in Massachusetts. This after a graduate student from Turkey in the U.S. on a legal student visa was detained by U.S. Federal agents. The video we're about to show you shows the moment of her arrest. The attorney for the student says she was on her way to meet friends for dinner on Tuesday when plainclothes officers suddenly surrounded her on a street.

CNN's Gloria Pazmino joins me now with the details. What justification for this arrest of someone here on a legal student visa is -- are the authorities giving?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, I have to say, you know, we've watched the video several times now and it's chilling because you can actually hear her reaction. She actually screams out when the officers approach her.

And the reason this video is so important is because we are seeing a pattern by the Trump administration of targeting international students who are here on student visas and who have participated in protests or demonstrations against the Israel-Hamas war, many of the protests that unfolded across the country's university campuses last year. Now, we have reached out to the Department of Homeland Security about this detention, and they have told us that there was an investigation that revealed that this student, her name is Rumeysa Ozturk, participated in activities in support of Hamas. What's not clear to us just yet is exactly what they are talking about. They have not provided those details yet.

But the video is just absolutely chilling. You can see that officers were waiting for her. They're parked in their vehicles. When she's approaching, they jump out of their cars. They put their mask over their face. They approach her, they surround her. They take her cell phone away. They take her backpack away. They put her in handcuffs. And they walk her to an SUV. Put her in the back of the car and drive away.

And as you said at the beginning, Jim, her attorney told me that she was actually on her way to an Iftar dinner. The break fast meal that Muslims have during the Holy month of Ramadan, which we are in the middle of right now. That's when they took her into custody.

Now, it took her attorney 24 hours to figure out where she had been taken to and what they were charging her with. We've learned in the last few hours that although her attorney filed a motion with the court in Massachusetts to prevent her from being moved, like we've seen in other cases, she was already transferred to an ICE detention facility in Louisiana.

So, now, the government has to respond to that motion and presumably they're going to have to explain why they detained her and why they believe this stop is constitutional and legal, something that her attorney is challenging. She's told me that the video is extremely concerning and the fact that she was not able to get information about where her client was taken or why her client was detained in the first place is extremely concerning.

Now, Tufts University -- go ahead, Jim.

SCIUTTO: I was just going to ask you. So, as I understand it, she wrote an op-ed supporting a boycott of Israeli products, which a number of people did around the world. Is that what the government says was pro-Hamas activity or do they have some other evidence or allegation related to her activity here?

PAZMINO: I think that is the critical question that the Trump administration is going to have to answer, and Department of Justice attorneys are going to have to present that case in court if they want this detention to pass legal muster. They're going to have to show what this alleged activity in support of a terrorist organization was. And certainly, the publishing of an op-ed does not seem to support that kind of evidence, right? We're going to see how that plays out in court.

But yes, to your point, she has published an op-ed where she was critical of the university's response to Palestinian -- pro- Palestinian protests on campus last year. As you said, there were so many people involved in these protests last year, but in the last several weeks, we have seen the targeted immigration enforcement of international students.

[18:40:00]

Now, Tufts University has acknowledged the detention. They said that they did not know anything about it prior to it happening. They also acknowledged that she was on a student visa. And they said that they are concerned and acknowledged that this is very concerning to the overall academic community, which as you're seeing today, Jim, they have turned out in protest to demand answers about why immigration officers are conducting these detentions in the way that we are seeing in that video.

SCIUTTO: It's an alarming thing to witness. Gloria Pazmino, thanks so much. Still ahead, we will hear from the host of a new podcast who says that Chinese cyber-attacks are now one of the most under-reported and serious threats the globe faces today. They go much further than you realize. She fears that critical infrastructure is now under threat and says we all must be better prepared.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. A potentially game changing breakthrough in China's raising alarm around the globe. China claims to have developed a deep-sea device capable of severing communication cables and power lines at record depths. That news caused particular alarm in Taiwan, which claims that China has already cut and damaged its undersea cables. Perhaps a sabotage, part of a broader effort to pressure the island. China is also accused of trying to intimidate Taiwan by holding a live fire drill last month off the island's coast. It's not the first time they've done so.

My next guest has been reporting for years on the growing cybersecurity threat posed by China, not just to Taiwan, but a number of countries including here in the U.S.

Nicole Perlroth was the lead cybersecurity reporter for the New York Times. She's now host of a new podcast called "To Catch a Thief." Her goal. Is to make us all aware of what she calls the greatest heist in history. In her podcast, she interviews people who've been tracking Chinese cybercrime as well as people who've become victims of it. And she says the public is largely unaware of the extent of the problem, even as it devastates companies, industries, entire U.S. towns, and of course individuals.

Nicole Perlroth joins me now. Good to have you on.

NICOLE PERLROTH, HOST, "TO CATCH A THIEF" PODCAST: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, tell me, I think -- I've certainly been aware of, and I think a lot of people watching have been aware that China for a number of years has stolen secrets, both national security secrets, but also private sector secrets and intellectual property to help its industry and so on. So, that's been going on. Tell us about the extent of their cybercrime that we don't know about.

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PERLROTH: Yes, I think, you know, just on the intellectual property theft, I covered so many of these attacks as one-offs. You know, we had our own at The New York Times. We had attacks on turbine makers and solar panel manufacturers, and we treated all of it as a one-off, when really it was just a massive campaign to steal our intellectual property, copy it, subsidize it, flood global markets and they're winning.

You know, the top three drone makers are Chinese. U.S. law enforcement now uses Chinese drones. We're all using U.S. solar panels. We're using Chinese made routers in our homes. And part of that is a national security priority, because now they are so baked into the supply chains.

You know, I just mentioned routers, and that's a good pivot into what they're doing in our infrastructure. They have been hacking into U.S. infrastructure, into our water systems, into our transportation systems, into our pipelines, into our ports. They're doing it in many cases through home and small business routers. Some of it are these Chinese TP-Link routers, some of them are unpatched American routers. Why are they doing this? They're doing it to really just lie and wait. They're not stealing anything. They're getting in, they're blending in. Maybe they only take one action every 90 days. They're only there just to be there in the event they need to disrupt or detonate on these systems one day.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PERLROTH: And I don't think Americans have any idea the extent to which they've infiltrated these systems.

SCIUTTO: Now, the U.S. has capabilities, and we've heard, and it's been reported through the years that the U.S. has embedded cyber weapons in -- not just in China, but in Russia as well. Is the penetration at all similar or is China's far more pervasive here than we have there?

PERLROTH: I think -- you know, I'd like to think maybe sometimes that we're in this new era of mutually assured digital destruction that maybe, you know, we're all in each other's systems, but we're not going to pull the trigger because someone would just turn around and shoot right back at you, right.

The difference, I don't think people realize, is we just have laws here. We have lawyers. We're not actually -- and it's my understanding, cyber command in the United States is not actually able to hack into civilian systems that would lead to loss of life. Our laws prevent us from doing that.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PERLROTH: China has no such laws.

SCIUTTO: Yes. PERLROTH: You know, people have told me when they show up to these discussions around, would we draw any red lines around certain systems, China has said no. And that when we show up to these discussions, we show up with lawyers and they don't have any lawyers there, right. They are not -- they have no other laws to abide by. So, to that extent, we are at a disadvantage.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Do -- well, tell us about some of the victims here because I think that helps people understand the extent of this.

PERLROTH: Yes. And unfortunately, I think the big problem with this threat is that we just have not been able to connect the dots. You know, when I was at The New York Times, I was one person covering cybersecurity, and it wasn't just coming from China, it was coming from ransomware cyber criminals. It was coming from Russia. It was coming from who knows where. North Korean hackers increasingly. And so, it was really hard for, I think, people to follow this through line, right.

But it's just getting worse and worse. And I think in government, so much of the threat was classified because they didn't want to share sources and methods. And then, the businesses that were hit, didn't want to disclose that they had been hit because they were fearful of class action lawsuits and the critical infrastructure. They didn't really understand that they were compromised because they're running these old systems where they're not even able to really discover when they've been compromised.

So, it's really urgent that we talk about the thread and connect the dots. That is happening more and more. So, a couple weeks ago, it was announced there's a small Massachusetts utility that operates 30 miles outside of Boston, they were compromised by some of these Chinese infrastructure hackers.

You know, why are Chinese hackers there? Again, they're there lying in wait in case geopolitical tensions escalate to the point where they might have to --

SCIUTTO: Turn them on?

PERLROTH: Yes.

SCIUTTO: In effect.

PERLROTH: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, it's an important topic, no question. I'm glad you're connecting the dots. "To Catch a Thief" is the podcast. Thanks so much for joining.

PERLROTH: Thank you so much for having me.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, defending champion Argentina secures a World Cup spot, no surprise there, by destroying though its rival Brazil. All the highlights of the World Cup qualifiers next.

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SCIUTTO: Defending champion Argentina is headed to the 2026 World Cup and it's celebrated the news by getting a four to one victory shellacking against rival Brazil. The Argentines already secured their spot after Bolivia had failed to beat Uruguay. In Asia, Iran has qualified. There are concerns, however, it could be subject to a potential Trump administration travel ban. Of course, the World Cup's going to be here in the U.S. as well as Mexico and Canada. We'll see.

Patrick Snell has been following all of the action. I want to say poor Brazil, you know, Argentina. That wasn't even close.

PATRICK SNELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: Jim, you're absolutely right. And Argentina, they love nothing more than beating their big rival, Brazil. Argentina, the reigning world champs, and they certainly played like it last night in Buenos Aires. The (INAUDIBLE) sealing their place on next year's World Cup. But even before a ball was kicked against the Brazilians, within the first few minutes of this match, Jim, it was all very one sided.

Argentina had through Julian Alvarez, right through the heart of the Brazilian defense. And from that moment on, there was simply no looking back for the hosts. They just powered their way to a 4-1. Remember, Argentina, as I say, they delight in beating Brazil. There's so much rivalry between these two storied football nations.

I will say, Jim, Brazil, were very poor indeed, and the manner of this defeat, throwing up even more question marks now over their under- pressure squad and head coach as well, Dorival Junior. Actually, he spoke after the match and let's just say he was far from happy.

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DORIVAL JUNIOR, BRAZIL COACH (through translator): The responsibility is all mine. Everything that we planned, unfortunately, from the first minute of the game did not happen. The Argentine team was superior, superior in every way. And I apologize to the Brazilian fans because the expectations were very different from what we saw from what we presented.

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SNELL: Yes. Jim, and if you're a Brazilian fan, here's the concern. The team is just leaking goals, 16 goals in qualifying already, compare that to the 2022 qualifying campaign when they're only allowed in five throughout the whole campaign. They're in fourth place right now, currently in the 10-team table. Remember, the top six from South America that qualify automatically for next year's World Cup. So, Brazil should be fine. I don't think they're at risk of not qualifying, but we'll see.

SCIUTTO: Patrick, a big story in the world of tennis, history made by a young player from the Philippines? SNELL: Yes, this is a great story. It's from the Miami Open in Florida. Remember this name? Alexandra Eala, just 19 years of age producing a remarkable performance on a Wednesday to eliminate Iga Swiatek. No lessons (ph). Straight sets to reach the semis. The wild card beating the Polish superstar. Remember, Swiatek is a five-time Grand Slam champ. She has massive stature in the game, but she just had no match for a very inspired opponent, pure, raw emotion as well. She looks to be in shock, in disbelief there after sealing a famous win.

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Alexandra has now beaten three Grand Slam champs to book a spot in the last four, having already overcome a Jelena Ostapenko and Madison Keys. She's also the first player from her country, Jim, to reach a tour level semi-final. And this is really nice to see. Eala was actually presented with a photo of her graduation from the Famed Rafa Nadal Academy less than two years ago. It's remarkable. She was graduating less than two years ago, but who else is in that photo in addition to Nadal himself? Why? It's ga Swiatek. She was there in Mayorca back in June of 2023. And now, she's feeling firsthand just what it takes to be beaten by her opponent, who by the way, will next face either Jessica Pegula or Emma Raducanu for replacing the final. That one starting in about five or six minutes from right now. Jim, back to you.

SCIUTTO: All right. Patrick Snell, thanks so much. And thanks so much to all of you for your company today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, D.C. Please do stay with CNN.

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