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Smartphones And Computers Now Exempt From Trump's Latest Tariffs; Soybean Farmers Caught In The Middle Amid U.S.-China Dispute; Iran State Media: "Constructive" Nuclear Talks With U.S. Wrap For Now; Dozens Of DHS Staffers, Including Top FEMA Officials, Given Lie Detector Tests Over Alleged Leaks; WH: Selected Immigrants Are Ineligible For Social Security Benefits; Judge Demands Daily Updates On Case Of Mistakenly Deported Man. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired April 12, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:11]

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. Thanks for joining me. I'm Isabel Rosales in for Fredricka Whitfield.

We're following breaking news in President Trump's global trade war in a major reversal. Customs and Border Patrol now say many electronics, including smartphones, computers, and semiconductors are now exempt from the White House's sweeping tariff.

The decision comes just days after the U.S. imposes a 145 percent tariff on all Chinese imports. China hit back charging 125 percent tariffs on U.S. imports. China dominates electronics, manufacturing, exporting tens of billions of dollars to the U.S. each year.

CNN's Kevin Liptak and Nathaniel Meyersohn are tracking all of the latest. Kevin, let's start with you. What more is the White House saying about all of this?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, this is certainly a major development after what has been quite a whipsaw week when it comes to these tariffs. Now, the administration announcing that several products will be exempted from the 145 percent tariff that now applies on China.

But I do think it, it's important to note that these products won't be exempt from all tariffs because remember, President Trump has kind of layered his different tariffs on top of each other when it comes to China. And so there will still be some tariffs applied to these goods. But when it comes to that, overall 145 percent duty, these products will be exempted.

And it's quite an extensive list. It includes smartphones, laptop, computers, transistors, flat panel monitors, hard drives, semiconductors. All products that are, for the most part, not manufactured in the United States. This could be a boon for consumers who are spared, at least for now from some of the higher prices that might have come from these higher tariffs.

It's also a boon for companies like Apple, Samsung, Dell, who manufacture the majority of their products in China. And I think we should also note that those companies have also been working to cultivate President Trump throughout the course of this administration. They are now getting a reprieve from some of these tariffs.

I think the big question is how long this reprieve will last. Because when you talk to White House officials, they do note that the President has said that he thinks this type of product should be applied a more specific tariff, leaving open the possibility that he could apply more targeted tariffs to these specific products down the road.

I'm also told that the President plans to conduct a national security review specifically of semiconductors. You know, those microchips that power so many computers, those studies often result in tariffs down the line. And so, I think overall what we can say is that while these higher duties will not apply to these products for now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will be spared from the tariffs down the road.

Now, I did get a statement from the White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt, who says, "President Trump has made it clear America cannot rely on China to manufacture critical technology such as semiconductors, chips, smartphones, and laptops". She goes on to say, "That's why the President has secured trillions of dollars in U.S. investments from the largest tech companies in the world, including Apple, TSMC", which is the Taiwanese chip maker, "and Nvidia", also another chip maker.

"At the direction of the President, these companies are hustling to onshore their manufacturing in the United States as soon as possible." So that from Karoline Leavitt.

Of course, as soon as possible is all relative. It will take years potentially for companies like Apple, like Samsung to move their production into the United States. It would cost potentially trillions of dollars for them to make the investments in factories on U.S. shores.

So I think this is all sort of another example of some of the uncertainty that exists in the President's tariff agenda as he continues to wage this trade war, Isabel.

ROSALES: Yes. Apple, who's been flying in airplanes full of phones to avoid this tariff. We were wondering who would blink first between Xi and Trump. We may be getting our answer here.

Nathaniel, this back and forth on tariffs is certainly causing whiplash for consumers, causing a lot of uncertainty, which we know the markets do not love. What does this latest move mean for American businesses and shoppers alike?

NATHANIEL MEYERSOHN, CNN CONSUMER REPORTER: Well, I think Kevin said it well. It's great news for Apple, Microsoft, big tech companies, big electronic companies that are heavily reliant on China to produce their products. Apple, for example, 90 percent of iPhone production that Apple makes is done in China. So certainly this is great news.

[13:05:00]

The latest news is great news for Apple and these other tech companies. But there's still just so much chaos and unpredictability and uncertainty with businesses and with consumers for the on and off, you know, pull and start tariffs. It's so difficult for companies to plan ahead for shoppers to know what's, you know, what prices are going to stay the same, what's going to go up.

And that's why you've seen just a plunge in consumer confidence over the last month. You've seen the stock market plunge. These tariffs are just having so much chaos on businesses. And the other point I think it's important to note is that small and medium sized businesses that don't have the clout that Apple and Microsoft have, they're still, you know, getting -- going to get hammered by these tariffs and their costs are going to increase.

So while it's great for the Apples and Microsofts of the world, you know, it doesn't do much for these other companies that are still heavily reliant on China or that are going to see their costs go up because of the universal 10 percent tariffs on other countries.

ROSALES: It'll be interesting to see how the market reacts to this when futures open tomorrow.

Nathaniel Meyersohn and Kevin Liptak, thank you.

President Trump's escalating trade war with China could send shockwaves through America's farms. One crop in particular soybeans may feel the biggest impact. Beijing is one of the largest overseas markets for American grown soybeans.

We're joined now by Ryan Marquardt. He is a 5th generation farmer in Madison County, Iowa. He is also vice President of the Iowa Farmers Union. Sir, thank you so much for being on the show.

RYAN MARQUARDT, 5TH GENERATION FARMER: And it's a pleasure being here Isabel.

ROSALES: Can we start how this tariff war is impacting your farm.

MARQUARDT: Well, I mean, I've recently taken over from my uncle after his passing and so we're dealing with 570 acres of crop ground. And we've got increased fertilizer prices, machinery, with steel tariffs. Our pricing is affected. We see challenges in just getting parts for machinery.

Just for instance our fertilizer, we use a lot pot ashes a significant component in dry fertilizer and it comes from Canada. So originally it was tariffed at 25 percent and then they dropped it down to 10 percent. And so there's just a lot of volatility. It's very hard to plan and it takes a lot of faith to farm in this environment.

ROSALES: Right. So it's not even just about the product soybeans that we're talking about here but the actual supply chain. MARQUARDT: No.

ROSALES: Everything that goes into producing this crop.

MARQUARDT: Right. I mean the -- so yes, before you even sell it, you know, you've already been impacted by all this stuff.

ROSALES: Yes.

MARQUARDT: So, I mean, in the past when we sold the China, you know, in 2017 like the U.S. was doing like $12.2 billion. And then after the first round of tariffs, then it dropped all the way down to $3.1 billion. And over the years it kind of worked its way back up.

But, you know, if we see another big drop like that this time, you know, that's going to have a significant impact on, you know, farms like us, so.

ROSALES: Well, is this more of an aggravation so far or a five alarm fire? How would you describe it?

MARQUARDT: I mean we've had things like the -- there's a commodity assistance program that has kind of come in and try to backstop things. But that's not where farmers want to be. You know, we don't want to be depending upon the federal government to kind of provide a price support when we hit these rocky times.

We would rather have some predictability in what we sell and what we're -- what our pricing looks like from year to year. And we're just not seeing that.

ROSALES: Right.

MARQUARDT: That's -- it's just very -- it's very frustrating.

ROSALES: Yes, frustrating and difficult to plan as you said. Now, the U.S. is the world's second leading soybean producer and exporter according to the USDA. Can you talk about why soybean in particular is so vulnerable to these duties?

MARQUARDT: Well, I mean, China is our largest purchaser and Brazil is a very good competitor in soybeans. And it wouldn't -- if China wants to make the switch to Brazil, they can, and they can move that business down there. And every time you have these ripple effects in the trade market like trade is built on relationships. And so these relationships get damaged every time one of these things happens.

And all the whiplash does no favors in trying to build or maintain any of these relationships. And I worry also about the distributors like we -- as farmers, we might get some backstop price support but a lot of our distributors don't. So if a lot of our distributors lose markets on them rapidly, they could get wiped out too.

ROSALES: Yes. And I want to go back a little bit. You mentioned Brazil as an alternative. Do you worry that we could reach a point of no return where China replaces the U.S. market, the soybean with a competitor from a different nation like Brazil? And there's no going back.

MARQUARDT: Yes.

ROSALES: Yes.

MARQUARDT: Definitely. It's definitely a concern.

ROSALES: OK. What are you keeping --

MARQUARDT: I mean, yes.

ROSALES: -- a close watch on to get this first signals of something like that potentially happening?

MARQUARDT: Well, you know --

ROSALES: When you're looking at data?

MARQUARDT: -- we're curious does China -- Yes, you kind of -- we're kind of look and see what comes out of China really at the next step.

[13:10:13]

What is -- are we going to have this -- are we going to pause or are we going to keep going? I mean, we've seen this tit for tat and tit for tat and back and forth. And it's like, well, when what -- the problem is once you get start this escalation, it's really hard to find an off ramp. And so where people can say face and, you know, and basically kind of make this kind of right the ship.

So it's challenging. So it's like, we don't know when it's going to stop. And we're just worried that, you know, what the next shoe to fall might be, so.

ROSALES: And I don't mean to be intrusive here but you're mentioning, you know, the difficulty in planning the added cost of things like fertilizer machinery steel parts. How long can you keep going like this before you need to make some serious decisions on your financials, on your budgeting as a business?

MARQUARDT: That's a good question. We're pretty -- we're relatively new to this role, so I, you know, I don't know. We're in a relatively good position from -- we're not renting a lot of grounds. We own a lot of grounds. So we don't have those capital costs.

But if you are a beginning farmer in particular and you rent a lot of ground and you have a lot of machinery expenses and such, you're going to be very -- in a very tight spot here. We could lose an entire generation of farmers if this, you know, continues.

ROSALES: Wow. Final word to you, sir. A sentence or two to the President from a farmer.

MARQUARDT: Well, we would just love to see some stabilization here. We just -- businesses want to see certainty. They want to know. -- they want to be able to plan ahead. My wife works with rural business, rural manufacturers and they're sitting on their hands and not putting their investments into their businesses simply because they're like, well, we're holding cash to deal with tariffs.

We're not making further investments in our businesses. So you're going to see a decline in economic activity with people holding cash. It's the same with farmers, the same with a lot of rural manufacturers and businesses.

ROSALES: Yes. Deeply impactful to the agricultural business. Deeply impactful to consumers. And we'll of course continue to follow these developments.

Ryan Marquardt, really appreciate your time, sir. Thank you.

MARQUARDT: Thank you very much.

ROSALES: Thanks.

Well still ahead, the U.S. and Iran hold crucial talks to try to reach a new nuclear deal and ease tensions in the region. Ahead, what both sides are saying about the talks.

Plus, the Trump administration has declared thousands of immigrants as dead despite them being very much alive. Coming up, how the administration hopes this will force those immigrants out of the country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:20]

ROSALES: New today, nuclear talks between Iran and the U.S. have wrapped for now. Iran's state media describing the talks as constructive and says that for most of the talks, each side was in a separate room with a messenger going between them. But they also later included the first direct contact between officials from the Trump administration and Iran.

Iran is saying these talks could lay the groundwork for full negotiations. Here was President Trump's take on Air Force One last night.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want them not to have a nuclear weapon. I want Iran to be a wonderful, great happy country. But they can't have a nuclear weapon. I want them to flourish, but they can't have a nuclear weapon.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

ROSALES: Barak Ravid joins us now. He is a political and global affairs analyst for CNN and a global affairs correspondent for Axios. Barak, you're the man to hear from about all of this. What are you hearing about today's talks? BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think this was an initial engagement. Each side played its part I think perfectly. The Iranians at the beginning had their indirect talks. The Americans at the end had their direct engagement. The Omani mediators had everything lined up and everything happened according to this line up.

So, overall, I think it was a very successful first step. But, you know, that's not saying much because what both parties wanted out of this meeting today was to get to the next meeting. They got there. The next meeting will really start dealing with the issues themselves.

ROSALES: And we've heard really sharp language from President Trump saying there will be hell to pay if Iran doesn't give in to his demands. Why were Iran's leaders willing to come back to the table now?

RAVID: So first because President Trump ordered I think what is the most massive U.S. military buildup in the region for, you know, for in decades with the Iranians getting a very clear message not only with words but with deeds, with watching how many B2 bombers the U.S. is bringing to the region, how many aircraft carriers the U.S. is bringing to the region.

This was a clear message to them that they are under a real threat of being attacked by the U.S. or by Israel or by both. But if you look at what President Trump, if you listen carefully to what President Trump said yesterday on Air Force One, he was very specific about what he wants.

And he says, I want Iran not to be able to obtain a nuclear weapon. He did not say, I want to dismantle the entire Iranian nuclear program. And that's a big difference.

[13:20:05]

Because if President Trump would have come out and said, I don't want Iran to have one centrifuge, I don't want Iran to have 1 pound of enriched uranium, we would have been in a very different place because the Iranians would say, well, we're not going to do that. But when President Trump is focusing on just getting Iran to a place where it cannot obtain a nuclear weapon, this gives a lot of maneuvering space to both the U.S. and Iran during those negotiations.

ROSALES: Yes. And we saw a lot of developments here over the last couple of months with Iran's proxy groups to Hamas and Hezbollah both severely weakened by conflict with Israel. How much is that playing into Iran is approaching these negotiations?

RAVID: I think it had a lot of influence because the Iran, President Trump is negotiating today is not the Iran President Biden negotiated two years ago and not the Iran President Obama negotiated 10 years ago. So it's a -- and Iran is a very weakened spot right now. It's Hamas, Hezbollah, militias in Iraq are all weakened.

The Houthis are under massive American air campaign. So the Iranians lost their air defenses, their sophisticated air defenses when Israel bombed them. So I think the Iranians understand pretty well that if they say no, and if they reject talks and if they reject the deal, there's, you know, quite big likelihood that they're going to get bombed.

ROSALES: Yes. And how do you see the likelihood of that next meeting happening?

RAVID: Well, it's going to happen next Saturday again in the Sultanate of Oman again with White House envoy Steve Witkoff and Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi. And in that meeting, they will start dealing with the issues themselves.

And the question I'm asking myself, and I know that the Iranians are asking themselves and I know that U.S. negotiators are asking themselves, is whether President Trump's two-month deadline that started today is enough to get a comprehensive deal.

Not a lot of people I spoke to think that it is because this is a highly technical issue. So the question I think that the parties will have to decide pretty soon is whether this is really the deadline and what they think they can, you know, realistically achieve under that deadline.

ROSALES: OK, this is an important story with global ramifications.

Barak Ravid, appreciate that breakdown. Thank you.

RAVID: Thank you.

ROSALES: Well this just into CNN, FEMA officials are among dozens of government staffers given lie detector tests by the Department of Homeland Security says they are administrating them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:23]

ROSALES: This just in, the Department of Homeland Security has administered lie detector tests to about 50 staffers in recent weeks. That includes FEMA's acting administrator and roughly a dozen officials at the Disaster Relief Agency. It's all part of an intensifying effort to root out what the department alleges are leaks of national security information.

CNN's Gabe Cohen has the brand new reporting. Gabe, what are you learning.

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So Isabel, first, what DHS is telling us, they are standing by these lie detector tests that they've administered to dozens of workers at this point including about 12 FEMA employees. A DHS spokesperson telling me in a statement, "The Department of Homeland Security is unapologetic about its efforts to root out leakers that undermine national security. We are agnostic about your standing, tenure political appointment, or status as a career civil servant. We will track down leakers and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law".

ROSALES: And what are workers at FEMA telling you?

COHEN: Well, look, there is growing concern right now. Again, about a dozen of them receive these tests. One of the people tested I have learned has been placed on administrative leave and was actually escorted out of the agency's office this week.

Several of the people who were tested according to the Department of Homeland Security failed their test. A DHS spokesperson saying again that there have been these failures but they would not specify what information exactly those FEMA workers are accused of leaking.

We also know one of the people who was given a lie detector test with FEMA's Acting Administrator Cameron Hamilton who was a Trump appointee. He was tested just days after attending a closed door meeting with other FEMA officials as well as top DHS officials including Secretary Kristi Noem where they discussed how to potentially shut FEMA down in the coming months.

DHS says his lie detector cleared him. But again it is important to note that these tests are being administered primarily because of alleged leaks to the media. And there is a growing fear about the impact that it is having at this disaster relief agency. In describing these tests, FEMA officials who I spoke to used words like witch hunt, a garbage. One said it is instilling a culture of fear at FEMA.

I want to read you what one of those officials told me. They said, quote, "I find it very, very hard to believe that within the normal course of business, any of these employees had their hands on classified material.

[13:30:04]

They are trying to incite fear. They are trying to get rid of people."

Remember, President Trump and his allies have been criticizing FEMA for months now, calling the agency ineffective and unnecessary. And that includes Homeland Security secretary, Kristi Noem, who has promised to eliminate FEMA.

On the tests, Isabel, government agencies, past administrations, they have used lie detector tests to catch leakers, but it is usually for classified, highly sensitive national security information.

We spoke to a whistleblower support organization very concerned about the high volume of tests that we are seeing, saying, quote, "What used to be a sensitive, carefully considered, high-risk decision is now a knee-jerk reaction." And that, they say, is what's scary.

ROSALES: Hey, great reporting, important reporting. Gabe Cohen, amazing job. Thank you.

Well, a new policy under the Trump presidency is directing the Social Security Administration to enter more than 6,000 names of immigrants into its database used to track deceased people. The move is designed to cancel their Social Security number,

effectively wiping out their ability to work and access benefits.

A DHS official with knowledge of the decision says the Trump administration is hoping it will drive immigrants to self-deport.

CNN's Rafael Romo joins me now.

And, Rafael, a source tells CNN that doge officials have renamed the Social Security death file to the ineligible file. Do you know how they're selecting just who is added to this file?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What they're saying publicly is that these people are being selected because they committed some sort of crime, or they are on a terrorism list. But the reality is that we have yet to see the evidence.

And, Isabel, the Social Security Administration already has a list previously created to track people who have passed away. It is now also going to be used to invalidate legally obtained Social Security numbers that we're given to some immigrants.

According to an official, the Trump administration is hoping this will drive these immigrants to, what you we're talking about, Isabel, to self-deport, given that it will become virtually impossible for them to do most financial transactions.

A White House official says that the Department of Homeland Security has identified over 6,300 temporarily paroled aliens on the terrorist watch list or with FBI criminal records.

The administration provided no evidence to back up the assertion. The DHS terminated parole for all of these individuals, effective April 8th.

Furthermore, the Social Security team, the official told us, determined these immigrants were ineligible to receive Social Security benefits and moved their Social Security numbers to a list called Ineligible Master File. This is a new name for a list that used to be called Death Master File.

And this is important, Isabel, because this file was previously used only for people who had died so that no unqualified individuals would have access to Social Security benefits.

An Atlanta immigration attorney explained to us the severe impact this is going to have on immigrants whose previously valid Social Security numbers we're placed on the death master file.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUSTIN BAXTER, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: They're going to be cash dependent because, even though they have work authorization in these valid Social Security numbers, they're not going to be allowed, in most instances, to open bank accounts, to cash checks, to apply for credit cards, to lease apartments, to get on their company health insurance.

All those things are going to become virtually impossible to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: The Trump administration official told CNN this should not be a surprise to anybody.

In a statement, Liz Huston, a White House spokeswoman, said that "President Trump promised mass deportations. And by removing the monetary incentive for illegal aliens to come and stay, we will encourage them to self-deport. He is delivering on his promise he made to the American people."

But Dustin Baxter, the immigration attorney we spoke with, told us that the immigrants affected by this action are all people who were vetted before they came to the United States and were paroled in lawfully.

This action targets immigrants who have Social Security numbers and may have entered the United States under programs that have ended, like the Biden administration's temporary work programs.

What has this created is, there's a lot of confusion, a lot of people who are very afraid because they really don't know where they're standing.

ROSALES: Highly impactful, leasing, insurance, credit cards. Everything.

ROMO: Everything.

ROSALES: Rafael Romo, Thank you.

[13:34:34]

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROSALES: A district judge is demanding daily updates from the Justice Department after the Trump administration mistakenly deported a Maryland man to El Salvador.

The move followed a tense hearing Friday when an attorney with the DOJ admitted that he had no information on Kilmar Abrego Garcia's current location.

ICE claimed the father of three is a member of the M.S.-13 gang. The administration later admitted he was deported because of a, quote, "administrative error."

On Thursday, the Supreme Court ordered the Trump administration to facilitate his return. Here's how the president responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If the Supreme Court said bring somebody back, I would do that. I respect the Supreme Court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: Now, CNN correspondent, Priscilla Alvarez, has more details from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[13:40:04]

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, after the Supreme Court delivered its order on Kilmar Abrego Garcia, it's still unclear if and when he will return to the United States.

The Supreme Court saying, in their decision, that the federal government needs to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia, but stopped short of requiring his return, sending it back to the lower court and placing an emphasis on due deference to foreign affairs.

That, giving the administration some wiggle room. And also part of the basis of why they called that decision a victory.

Now, in that hearing room in the court in Maryland on Friday, federal judge asked questions of the Justice Department about what steps were being taken to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia.

The Justice Department attorney, however, stonewalling many of those questions. And the judge, at one point, saying that the lack of responses was, quote, "extremely troubling."

Now, the federal judge ordered that there be daily updates by the federal government as to what steps they are taking to facilitate his return.

It's unclear, however, whether those answers will be satisfactory to her. And what she will do -- she, the federal judge, will do if she does find that the answers that the government is providing is unsatisfactory, as she has over the course of these court hearings.

Separately, the White House announced earlier in the week that the president of El Salvador is expected to visit the White House and meet with President Trump on Monday.

Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROSALES: Priscilla Alvarez, thank you. We continue to follow the breaking news. The U.S. now exempting some

of the most popular goods imported to the U.S. from President Trump's sweeping tariffs. Those details are coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:46:22]

ROSALES: Tonight, President Trump will head to Miami to attend a UFC fight, a sport that has become a cultural keystone between the far- right and the so-called Manosphere, where podcasters and influencers emphasize manliness above everything else.

It's a term that's become more and more prominent, last year, especially after Donald Trump successfully leveraged the male-oriented podcast space to help him win the election.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan got in the cage with former UFC star-turned podcaster, Jake Shields, to explore the Manosphere, and why exactly it's so popular.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERA PAPISOVA, JOURNALIST: They speak liberal. They have liberal friends. And then they go online and they are white supremacist.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Vera Papisova. She spent the last year dating far-right men in New York City for a story for "Cosmopolitan" magazine.

PAPISOVA: They're the most insecure men I've ever sat down with. It was really difficult to have some of these dates because they were so insecure, because they don't really know who they are. And they don't know how to figure that out.

O'SULLIVAN: She said the men she dated got all their news and information from the so-called Manosphere.

PAPISOVA: They did not listen to anything else. They're only listening to independent media, and they're only listening to men talking to men.

O'SULLIVAN: The Manosphere is made up of macho podcasters and influencers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no such thing as an independent female.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most women have zero concept of, like, money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Females don't have independent thought.

O'SULLIVAN: It's a space where UFC fighters are among those who reign supreme.

PAPISOVA: They love the UFC guys. They love the MMA guys because those guys do what they can. They're modern gladiators. They're badass. O'SULLIVAN: Badass, like Jake Shields, a former UFC star-turned

podcaster.

(on camera): Right now, I'm starting to feel nervous.

Thanks for having us.

JAKE SHIELDS, FORMER UFC STAR-TURNED PODCASTER: Yes, of course.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Who I met at an MMA gym in Las Vegas.

(on camera): Like all great MMA pros.

(BELL RINGING)

O'SULLIVAN: I've never hit anyone in my life.

SHIELDS: I'm not punching back. Hit me. Right here.

O'SULLIVAN OK, OK, OK. Ho!

(LAUGHTER)

O'SULLIVAN: This is CNN.

(LAUGHTER)

O'SULLIVAN: Do you miss being fulltime pro, like, in terms of --

SHIELDS: Yes. Yes, of course, I miss it. To go from professional athlete, which is the highest of highs, to retirement.

O'SULLIVAN: I guess the podcast --

SHIELDS: The podcast has helped. You could fall into depression if you just go from the most amazing career, where you're famous, in spotlights, to, all of a sudden, you're a nobody.

O'SULLIVAN: Sure.

(voice-over): Like other podcasters in the Manosphere, Jake regularly hosts controversial guests.

SHIELDS: I named the podcast "Fight Back. I feel like we have to fight back to what we're told we're allowed to do. I just don't like being told you're not allowed to talk to this person. Like, why can't I talk to him? I'm not -- I'm not saying I agree with his ideology, but I should hear what he has to say.

O'SULLIVAN: He's hosted the former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

SHIELDS: Today, I have a very, very special guest, Dr. David Duke.

I know you're controversial, but I know how controversial.

O'SULLIVAN: And Thomas Russo, the leader of the white supremacist group Patriot Front.

(SHOUTING)

SHIELDS: Let's go disagree a little bit. Let's hit race because -- you're a white-only group?

THOMAS RUSSO, LEADER, PATRIOT FRONT: So the organization only allows people of American ethnicity and all Americans, I believe, come from Europe. So they're white.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The true owners of the American spirit fighter.

SHIELDS: Yes. No, I understand that talk to these guys. But I've also not brought anyone hateful. If I do, I'm going to be really, really on top of them.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): But so you're saying that you haven't brought someone hateful on race. People say, well, you brought on a grand wizard of the KKK. You brought on Patriot Front.

SHIELDS: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: They're hateful.

SHIELDS: No, I think those are excellent questions. But people go and watch the actual interviews, I think they would be like, oh, this guy's not near as hateful as I -- as I expected.

[13:50:06]

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But Vera says hate isn't what the men she dated were really looking for.

PAPISOVA: One of these guys brought me to a political meeting.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): And did they talk about politics?

PAPISOVA: Barely. They talked about -- it was a bunch of men complaining about girlfriends and wives, regurgitating Andrew Tate- type --

O'SULLIVAN: Right.

PAPISOVA: -- of advice about how to train your girlfriend, how to train your wife to be submissive.

And so this group was supposed to be a political group, but they're talking about relationship problems. And the fact that that's what most of the time was spent on, you don't need to be a Neo-Nazi. You need therapy.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The appeal of Jake's podcast speaks to a need among young men in this country that Vera says can't be ignored.

PAPISOVA: You have to incentivize someone to want to be better. You can't just say, let's make men better. The thing about these guys is their biggest support system is online.

But that also is very isolating and isolation is what breeds hatred.

O'SULLIVAN: Groups like Patriot Front offer community, but community based on racism and hate.

PAPISOVA: People have to really think about, do you have the capacity to talk to people that you don't agree with?

Because that one nice conversation you might have might change someone's day enough to not have to seek out help in an online support group, which is actually a bunch of white supremacists using political beliefs as an excuse for how they feel.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROSALES: Donie O'Sullivan is here with us now.

Donie, I'm so glad you've done this special. There's so much intrigue around this issue of the Manosphere. And, in fact, Trump is going to the UFC tonight. How big of a role does the sport play in the Manosphere?

O'SULLIVAN: Hey, Isabel. Yes. And look, we should point out at the start here, there's tons of guys who are fans and some women as well who are fans of the UFC. I have many friends who are fans of the UFC.

It certainly does not mean you know that if you are a fan of the UFC, you are falling sort of down this rabbit hole of hate and white supremacy and everything else.

But what we are seeing is that there is this sort of -- there is this crossover. The UFC is playing a greater and bigger and bigger role, really, in American life.

Joe rogan, who's the world's biggest podcaster, is a UFC commentator. Dana white, who is the founder of the UFC, is a prominent Trump supporter and was recently appointed to the board of Meta by Mark Zuckerberg himself, another big MMA and UFC fan.

And actually, fighting tonight in Miami. Trump is going to the event. We're not sure if he'll be there for the earlier fights.

But fighting tonight in Miami at the UFC event is a fighter by the name of Bryce Mitchell, who recently set up a podcast of his own. And on his debut episode a few months ago, he said that Hitler was a, quote, unquote, "good guy or a great guy."

Dana white, the head of the UFC, was quick to condemn that. But, you know, you can just kind of see there where -- where folks who might be coming into this sport for one reason or a fan of fighting, and then they're getting exposed to views like, like Bryce Mitchell.

ROSALES: And some of the reporting we've just seen will feature tomorrow night in your special episode of "THE WHOLE STORY," "MISINFORMATION: EXTREME AMERICA. You've traveled all over the country to learn about how Americans are

being radicalized. What else did you find out? What stuck out to you?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes. And look, I mean, this has been -- it is -- this month is actually the 30-year anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, which, of course, was perpetrated by Timothy McVeigh, a domestic terrorist, domestic extremist who was, in part, radicalized by literature, extremist literature.

Looking -- we're very much looking in this special tomorrow night at the role social media and the Internet has played to really make it a lot easier to get radicalized in this country and find like-minded extremists.

ROSALES: And, Donie, if you're jumping into another ring, please, you got to come to jujitsu class with me. OK? I'll teach you some takedowns, heel hooks, some chokes. I will help you.

O'SULLIVAN: I need all of the tips I can get.

ROSALES: Not with a UFC former pro, but it's something. OK, Donie?

(CROSSTALK)

ROSALES: All right, thank you, Donie O'Sullivan.

An all new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY," airs tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. only on CNN.

[13:54:34]

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROSALES: A couple from Oregon is working to keep books from ending up in landfills. And they're doing it all right from their garage. That is today's "START SMALL, THINK BIG."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE SANDERS, ATTIC JOURNALS: Portland is renowned for recycling. We're also a port. So all books west of the Mississippi come to Portland to be converted into fodder for paper towels and toilet paper. All books come here to die.

At Attic Journals, we make journals, garlands and jewelry out of discarded books. When I had the opportunity to save books professionally, it felt like I was living into my highest calling.

We never interrupt literacy. We always interrupt landfill, whether that's working with schools and libraries to help them get their books recycled. Or it's us standing at the cost of the landfill, pulling books out.

[13:59:58] Miguel does it every week.

MIGUEL, ATTIC JOURNALS: Every week I go there, buy, and I pick the books like this.

SANDERS: We are trying desperately to use up every bit of the book. We're not just taking the covers and throwing everything else out. We're committed to the entire book.