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Pope Francis Celebrated Easter Sunday Hours Before Death At 88; Pope Francis Asked To Be Buried In Simple Tomb; Senior Church Leaders To Pick Next Pope During Conclave; U.S. Stocks Tumble As Trump Bashes Fed Chair Again. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired April 22, 2025 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Tributes and praise amid the grief and sadness, ahead on CNN NEWSROOM.
Remembering an outspoken yet humble Pope who charmed the world, inspiring both adoration and at times criticism as well.
Also ahead.
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VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: U.S. markets tumbled Monday over continuing trade uncertainty.
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VAUSE: That uncertainty coming directly from the U.S. president and his criticism and implied desire to fire the chairman of the Federal Reserve. And to the outside world the U.S. Defense Department is lurching from one crisis to the next, but to the U.S. president --
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is no disruption. Ask the Houthis how much dysfunction there. There's none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: One former high ranking Defense official disagrees, describing the Pentagon in full meltdown under Secretary Pete Hegseth.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Atlanta, this is CNN NEWSROOM with John Vause.
VAUSE: From around the world tributes and prayers for a Pope whose outspoken views and personal humility rattled conservatives and inspired change within the Catholic Church. Vatican officials say Pope Francis died of a heart failure and stroke Easter Monday. Next will come nine days of mourning, that's after the funeral, with Vatican flags flying at half-staff and the bronze doors at Saint Peter's Basilica closed.
That's where the holy father is expected to lie in state, allowing mourners to pay their respects. According to his will, Francis asked to be buried in a simple tomb at the Basilica of Saint Mary Major, where his photos are now on display.
The Pope's official residence has been sealed with a red ribbon and wax seal, marking the start of the grieving period. Notably, Francis has never lived there. He preferred a more modest apartment at Casa Santa Marta, a Vatican guesthouse which has also been sealed, a tradition which began to prevent looting but now symbolizes the formal end of a papacy.
And just hours before he died, the pontiff delivered the traditional holiday blessings on Easter Sunday from the famous balcony of Saint Peter's. He also rode in the Popemobile, blessing babies as he moved through the crowd.
Pope Francis was the first Pope from Latin America, the first from the Jesuit Order, and the first to call himself Francis.
CNN's chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward reports on an historic life and legacy.
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CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The bells toll at Saint Peter's in tribute to a Pope who reshaped the Catholic Church.
Pope Francis died from stroke and heart failure on Monday morning, the Vatican said. And as news broke of his passing, mourners poured into Saint Peter's Square, united in their grief.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's just a very sad day. It's honestly I think impressive that he made it to Easter. I think that's almost like a miracle for Italy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty much devastated all of us. It's, yes, really bad. It's really sad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a moment of a bit of sadness and at the same time thankfulness and celebration of life.
WARD: Outside the Pope's residence at Casa Santa Marta, prayers and shock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, yesterday we saw him in the square, in Saint Peter's Square, and we knew he was sick. But nobody expected that he was going to die the day after.
WARD: Pope Francis had cut back on his duties this month after five weeks in the hospital this year when he battled life threatening double pneumonia.
JD VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I pray for you every day. God bless you.
WARD: But on Sunday, he'd been hard at work, meeting U.S. Vice President JD Vance, before appearing on the balcony of Saint Peter's, sick, frail, but determined to give his traditional Easter blessing.
A move delighting the crowd gathered outside. More so his ride through the square in his Popemobile for the first time since leaving the hospital a month ago, stopping to bless the young, sick and vulnerable.
On Monday, though, the jubilation of the Catholic faithful turned into a global grief. Tributes praising his warmth, humility and moral leadership in a troubled world.
During his whole pontificate, President Macron said he was by the side of the most vulnerable, the most fragile.
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In the Pope's final weeks, he visited prisoners in a jail in Rome and renewed calls in his final address for an end to the wars in Gaza, Ukraine and Sudan.
ANTONIO GUTERRES, U.N. SERETARY GENERAL: He urged the world to invest in what he referred to as the weapons of peace, to help the most vulnerable, to fight hunger, to advance development.
WARD: Rosary prayers were said at the Vatican Monday night in honor of an extraordinary life that touched rich and poor across the world.
Clarissa ward, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Father Michael Duffy is the rector of the Cathedral of Saint Agnes. He is with us from Rockville Center, New York.
Father, thank you for taking the time to speak with us.
FATHER MICHAEL DUFFY, RECTOR, CATHEDRAL OF ST. AGNES: Glad to be with you, John.
VAUSE: OK. So from the moment he became Pope, Francis worked in many ways to transform the papacy from the sort of formal leadership role, sort of untouchable, if you like, to a pastoral ministry. And he managed to have this sort of personal connection with, while reaching out to millions of people all at the same time. And that's sort of one reason why there's this sort of shared personal feeling of loss around the world. And I imagine that's being shared among your parishioners there as well at Saint Agnes.
DUFFY: Certainly. You know, whenever the Pope passes away, we feel it in a very personal way. We call him holy father and we really do mean that, that he is our spiritual father on earth. And so throughout the day here, we've had so many people coming. Many of them with tears in their eyes to pray for our holy father.
I'm just shocked because, as we just heard, we saw him in the square yesterday. We saw him on the balcony and obviously he was not well. But as with any relative, as with any person that we love, it's still a shock when we lose them.
VAUSE: But this Pope seemed to have such a much more personal connection than previous Popes, compared to Pope Benedict, for example, or Pope John Paul. Pope Francis truly was in so many ways the holy father.
DUFFY: He really was. You know, I think we as Catholics, we don't make a distinction between the holy fathers in that way. They're all holy father, and we've come to love them each in different ways with their different personalities, with the different styles.
This holy father has been the holy father for the last 12 years. And he understood the power of the image in a particular way. He understood how to connect with people in a very powerful way. And because of the social media world, because of Snapchat and Facebook and Instagram, anyone that had a phone lifted it up and snapped pictures of him and they would go viral. He had so many of those little moments like that.
VAUSE: Yes, he just had such a warmth about him that I think was not seen at least publicly by, you know, in other Popes. And he leaves behind at least a perception of a kinder, more caring, more forgiving Catholic Church. And that was a transformation which was driven by his own example and how he lived his life.
Is that the road the church will continue on, or does that depend on who is elected as his successor?
DUFFY: I think the Catholic Church seeks to be close to every person on the face of the earth. And that's the message of Jesus Christ. And I think our holy fathers, they have different personalities, like I said. And they have different emphases. And this holy father did a great job of being close to people, especially on the margins of going out to people that might have been forgotten of choosing and calling men from different parts of the world that have never been, for instance, cardinals.
There's a cardinal of Mongolia, cardinal from David, Panama, that this holy father has called them into the sanctuary of the church because he wants to hear their voice. And I think that that's certainly going to continue because that's the call of Jesus Christ for the church.
VAUSE: Yes. Just watching the holy father from a distance, he always seemed to be very happy. He was a happy warrior who embraced life and all that came with it. The good, the challenges, the bad. So as someone who's met him I think five times, is that how he came across in person? Is that how he was, you know, when you met him?
DUFFY: Yes. Every single time I met the holy father, he was always personable. He was always interested in where we came from. I had the opportunity to be introduced to him, and a cardinal said to him, holy father, this is Father Duffy from Rockville Center. And he had no idea that Rockville Center was from New York, nor should he. And he looked at me and he said, Ireland, right? I said, no, holy father, New York.
And then he came back at me and he said, no, Duffy is from Ireland. I said, holy father, many years ago, but I'm from New York. It was the only time I've ever (INAUDIBLE) the holy father to his face, you know. But he smiled. He laughed. He sort of gave me a real encouragement. And then he said, Father Duffy, please ask your people back home to pray for me.
So I was able to come back from Rome to Long Island, New York, where I live, where I'm the rector of this cathedral, and make that personal appeal to the people here to say to them, the Pope asked you individually by name to pray for him. It was a great connection that we had here with him because of that.
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VAUSE: Yes, that's a great story to finish on.
Father Duffy, thank you for being with us. We appreciate that. Thank you.
DUFFY: God bless, John.
VAUSE: Thank you.
DUFFY: Take care.
VAUSE: Well, the U.S. president and first lady will travel to Rome for the Pope's funeral. On Monday the president ordered U.S. flags lowered to half-staff until Pope Francis is buried. And despite past differences, President Trump spoke in praise of the late pontiff.
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TRUMP: He was a good man, worked hard. He loved the world. And it's an honor to do that.
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VAUSE: Pope Francis met only once with Donald Trump face to face. That was in 2017 during Donald Trump's first term in office. But the two often clashed on issues of immigration as well as climate change and the environment.
Pope Francis, in his will, wanted to be buried in a simple tomb in a basilica which held great personal significance for him.
CNN's Nic Robertson has details.
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NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): As he lived, so Pope Francis wants to be remembered in death with a relatively modest funeral. The pontiff picked his burial site two years ago. Wants a simple earthen grave.
POPE FRANCIS, CATHOLIC CHURCH (through text translation): The place is already prepared. I want to be buried in Santa Maria Maggoire. ROBERTSON: More than 1500 years old. The Papal Basilica Santa Maria
Maggiore, sometimes known as Our Lady of the Snows, is a humbler pick than the traditional resting place of many Popes. The gilded Saint Peter's Basilica. Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore was big in Pope Francis' life. Before and after every overseas trip he'd visit the Salus Populi Romani, a much venerated image of the blessed Virgin Mary.
The Vatican has just five to seven days to make the preparations before Francis' funeral must take place. And despite Francis' wish for a modest sendoff, it is his humble characteristic that may make organizing his funeral even more challenging. His humility made him hugely popular. His death may draw many to the Vatican over the coming four days. The pontiff is expected to first lay and rest in the Sistine Chapel, then the Clementine Chapel for private visitations, before laying in state inside Saint Peter's Basilica, where the public will be able to come pay their respects.
The last Pope's funeral, Benedict XVI, two years ago drew close to 200,000 mourners, was elaborate, but as he died almost a decade after he abdicated, comparisons are hard to make. The last Pope to die in office was Pope John Paul II in 2005. He had a very elaborate funeral. So many world leaders wanted to come. Nations were limited to five places each. Italy and his native Poland granted rare exceptions. An estimated 300,000 people attended.
In Saint Peter's Square 15 to 20 days from now the process of picking a new Pope begins, known as the Conclave of Cardinals. 120 of the church's 252 cardinals convenes in private. They remain isolated until Francis' successor is agreed. It may take almost two weeks. White smoke will signal success. A new Pope is announced.
Nic Robertson, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Our coverage of the death of Pope Francis continues here on CNN in a moment, but later this hour, how Francis worked to make the Catholic Church more welcoming to everyone. Plus another stock market selloff after one of these guys called the other one a major loser. No prizes for guessing which one. The numbers after the break.
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VAUSE: The Eiffel Tower in Paris went dark Monday night to mark the death of Pope Francis. The mayor of Paris also wants to name a public place after Francis in his honor.
In the coming days, the most senior figures within the Catholic Church will make their way to the Vatican for the conclave, the secretive process steeped in tradition by which a new Pope will be chosen.
CNN's Nick Watt explains how it all works.
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NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new Pope to lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics will be chosen by just around 130 cardinals in a mysterious, many centuries old rite -- the Conclave. Conclave with key.
REV. THOMAS REESE, S.J., SENIOR ANALYST, RELIGION NEWS SERVICE: They're locked in the Vatican and all their phones are taken away. They're not allowed to communicate with the outside world until they elect a vote.
WATT: Every cardinal under the age of 80 is summoned to Rome for this and must swear an oath of secrecy punishable by excommunication.
REESE: It's a secret ballot. The cardinals don't even know who voted for whom.
WATT: Father Reese says the movie "Conclave" got it almost right.
STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR: You have to commit to a side.
WATT: Except a secretly elected cardinal would never be allowed in. And the cardinal's robes were slightly the wrong color.
REESE: I think Hollywood got it better than the Catholic Church. I like the deeper red.
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WATT: By day the cardinals will sit in silence and prayer in the Sistine Chapel under Michelangelo's magnificent ceiling. Two votes in the morning, two in the afternoon until one candidate wins two-thirds of the ballots. By night, they stay in a boarding house nearby where the horse trading happens late into the evening.
REESE: Different cardinals will go around pushing for the candidate that they would like to see become Pope. Your friends have to do that for you. You cannot do that yourself. That would indicate a level of pride that would be unacceptable in a Pope.
WATT: The Pope just has to be male and Catholic but since 1389, the cardinals have always elected one of their own. After every inconclusive round of votes, the smoke from the chapel chimney is black. Ballots are burned with some chemicals thrown into create the color. When a new Pope is chosen, the smoke is white. At the last conclave, there was a problem.
REESE: The monsignor in charge of the stove didn't follow the directions and the smoke came out gray and everybody in Saint Peter's Square was scratching their heads.
WATT: So they rang the biggest bell in the square as well.
REESE: And as soon as you see it swinging, you know it's over.
WATT: The new Pope chooses a name and is ushered to the Room of Tears. REESE: And in that room, they will have three sets of papal garments,
the white cassock that the Pope wears, one small, one medium, and one large.
WATT: For the new Pope to wear when he walks out onto that famous balcony in Saint Peter's Square.
(On-camera): So the conclave will convene in just a little over two weeks from now. How long they'll take? Well, that's an open question. You know, back in the 1200s, they once took nearly three years. That was to elect Pope Gregory X. Recent years it's more likely two or three days. That's going to become the norm.
Now, the fact that there's no clear frontrunner, that might add a little time, something that might take away a little time, is 80 percent of these electors, these cardinals, were appointed by Pope Francis. So there's a decent chance they might be on a similar page. And remember, these cardinals are not just choosing the next Pope. They're essentially also choosing the direction that the church is going to take over the next few years.
Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: When we come back here on CNN, a look back at the life of the world's first Latin American Pope. How Pope Francis lived a life of service from an early age in Argentina.
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VAUSE: Donald Trump's ongoing criticism and name-calling of Fed chair Jerome Powell, as well as a lack of trade deal with Japan, are weighing down U.S. financial markets. The Dow, S&P 500, the Nasdaq all tumbled about 2.5 percent Monday. And with no end in sight to the Trump trade war, the dollar slumped to its lowest level versus foreign currencies in more than three years.
Much of the selloff came after the president vented on social media. He was angered about Jerome Powell's refusal to cut official interest rates.
Here's part of the post. "With these costs trending so nicely downward, just what I predicted they would do, there can almost be no inflation, but they can be a slowing of the economy unless Mr. Too Late," that will be Jerome Powell, "a major loser," Jerome Powell, "lowers interest rates now."
Live to Tokyo, CNN's Hanako Montgomery.
What can you say? Still no trade deal with Japan. Still no trade deal with South Korea. The White House won't even name the other 68 countries which make up the 70 countries so keen to make a deal. And then on top of that, you've got this feud between Jerome Powell, who's actually staying silent, and the president, Donald Trump. And the mere hint of him being fired is adding to this uncertainty.
HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, I mean, you're exactly right there. There is so much uncertainty. And trading partners of the United States are really just concerned about the strength of the U.S. economy and how independent the Federal Reserve can be.
Now, you saw those concerns reflected in stock markets across Asia today. We saw the Nikkei 225, the benchmark index in Japan, open about 0.4 percent lower. It's now trading about flat right now. And also that's followed by South Korea's benchmark index, the KOSPI. That opened about 0.34 percent lower today as well. And markets in Asia are really quite subdued. They haven't really been reflecting as significant losses as many experts were predicting.
But of course, that's really followed by the very massive losses we saw on Wall Street on Monday following the U.S. president's comments about the Federal Reserve chairman Jerome Powell calling him a big loser, as you just described there, John.
Now, even though these comments are quite harsh, they're not all that surprising given the fact that Trump has previously flirted with the idea of ousting the chairman from his position because he won't cut interest rates.
Now, whether or not Trump actually has the legal ability to oust Jerome Powell from his position is another debate altogether here, John. But really, Asian partners and trading partners across the world are concerned about these latest comments because, as you described, the U.S. Federal Reserve is supposed to be an independent body that helps shape the U.S.'s monetary policy. And economists warn that if the Federal Reserve doesn't have that same independence, then it might not be able to cut prices and regulate prices as well as it's done in the past.
Now, compounding all of this, as you describe there, John, is the fact that this comes just weeks after Trump's liberation day tariffs. Sweeping tariffs that we saw hit many of the U.S.'s trading partners and also foes as well.
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And even though there's been a 90-day pause on those tariffs, we're already seeing some economic impact, especially here in the region. For instance, in South Korea. According to the latest customs data, exports from South Korea to the United States fell about 14.3 percent in the first 20 days of April, compared to data from last year.
And overall, exports from South Korea to other parts of the world also fell 5.2 percent, compared to data from last year.
So, John, really, as the U.S.'s trading partners are scrambling to find a solution, scrambling to find just some kind of deal that they can strike with the U.S. president and the U.S. economy, there really is a lot of uncertainty in these markets and also in these respective countries' economies, and really just no end in sight here about just how they can really benefit their own country while also maintaining very good ties with the U.S. here -- John.
VAUSE: Hanako, thank you. Hanako Montgomery there, live for us in Tokyo. Appreciate it.
With that, we'll take a short pause. You're watching CNN. We'll be back in a moment.
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VAUSE: Welcome back, everyone. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm John Vause. Let's check today's top stories.
Funeral preparations are underway at the Vatican for Pope Francis, who died Monday of heart failure and a stroke. He was 88 years old.
His body is expected to lie in state at St. Peter's Basilica as early as Wednesday. The pope's official residence and personal apartment have been sealed by the Vatican, symbolizing the formal end of his pontificate.
U.S. financial markets will look to rebound after another sharp sell- off. The Dow, S&P and NASDAQ all closed down about 2.5 percent after Donald Trump called Fed chair Jerome Powell a major loser.
The U.S. president is pushing Powell to cut official interest rates.
Harvard University is suing the Trump administration for freezing more than $2 billion in federal funding. The school says efforts to control its academic programs violate its constitutional rights.
The White House claims Harvard has not done enough to curb antisemitism on campus.
In Buenos Aires, Catholics gathered Monday to celebrate the life and service of Pope Francis as countries across the regions declared national days of mourning for the first pope from Latin America.
The archbishop of Buenos Aires praised Francis for boldly facing some of the church's biggest problems.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORGE GARCIA CUERVA, ARCHBISHOP OF BUENOS AIRES (through translator): He put on the table and didn't hide the need for transparency in the church, the need for reforms in the church that were longed for. Maybe for this reason, he was so criticized, because he didn't quiet the problems but put them on the table. He didn't hide them or make them up, but proposed humanity take charge of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Flowers, candles, and thank-you letters in honor of the pope were left outside the Metropolitan Cathedral at Buenos Aires. Football badges were also among the mementos, a sign of the pontiff's love of the beautiful game.
CNN's Christopher Lamb recounts the pontiff's early days in Argentina and the legacy he now leaves behind.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A pope from the ends of the earth. Francis was the first Latin American pontiff, the first from Argentina.
A native of Buenos Aires, much of his life spent in the Argentine capital, shaping him as a future pope. Born Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the grandson of Italian immigrants, he had an ordinary childhood growing up: playing soccer, developing a love of literature, and going to school to study chemistry.
In a memoir, he writes he had a childhood infatuation with a little girl in Flores. The pope sending her a letter with a promise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): He said to me, "If I don't marry you, I'll become a priest."
LAMB (voice-over): Francis is true to his word: first training for the priesthood and then joining the Jesuit order. Quickly identified as a rising star, he was chosen to lead the Jesuits in Argentina at the young age of 36.
It was a time of turmoil in his country during the brutal military dictatorship. Bergoglio was accused of not doing enough to help two Jesuits kidnapped by the regime. He denied this and insisted he helped people escape.
But disagreements over his leadership style saw the Jesuits send Bergoglio into exile to this residence in Cordoba, central Argentina. He went through a dark night of the soul and later admitted to making many mistakes. A lesson in humility.
Eventually, he was tapped to become a bishop and cardinal in Buenos Aires. He focused his time among the poorest communities.
OSCAR CRESPO, FRIEND OF POPE FRANCIS (through translator): He told me clearly. Look, I said I'm going to be a priest, because my goal is to be at the service of the people. That's why I love going to the slums. That's why I'm going to the heart of the country.
LAMB (voice-over): Adopting a simple lifestyle similar to the one he had as pope, never owning a car and using the subway to get around. He wanted a church open to all and focused on those on the margins.
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In the annual run-up to Easter, he would often wash the feet of prisoners, something he continued as pontiff.
ELISABETTA PIQUE, POPE FRANCIS'S BIOGRAPHER: His legacy is about -- about this matter of a church open; a church inclusive; a church that is for all, not of -- of a little group of perfect people. But this is a pope who speaks to everybody and to speak especially to the people, to the sinners.
LAMB (voice-over): Despite his position, Francis tried not to take himself too seriously, loving to crack a joke, whether with world leaders or groups of children.
MARIA ELENA BERGOGLIO, SISTER OF POPE FRANCIS (through translator): He has a great sense of humor. I think he got that from my father. When he had to be firm for something, he was, but with good humor.
LAMB (voice-over): But relations with his homeland weren't always easy. He never managed to visit home after becoming pope in 2013. He was unafraid to criticize those in power and wasn't always popular with Argentina's politicians.
The first Latin American pope chosen to lead the Catholic Church leaves a lasting impression. A pontiff who came from the ends of the earth and called on the church to go out to the peripheries.
What he began in Argentina, he continued during his papacy.
Christopher Lamb, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: An embattled U.S. defense secretary facing one crisis after another, leading to what some say is a Pentagon meltdown under his leadership. Details when we come back.
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VAUSE: Among the tributes for Pope Francis are messages from former U.S. presidents, all of whom met with the pontiff.
Joe Biden wrote on social media, expressing great sadness, writing, quote, "Pope Francis will be remembered as one of the most consequential leaders of our time. And I'm better for having known him."
He went on to write, "And above all, he was a pope for everyone. He was the people's pope, a life of faith, hope and love."
Former U.S. President Barack Obama remembering the pope as, quote, "the rare leader who made us want to be better people." Obama went on to write, "May we continue to heed his call to never remain on the sidelines of this march of living hope."
U.S. President Donald Trump denies there's any dysfunctioning at the Pentagon -- just to change gears here -- despite his defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, coming under fire for sharing military plans on a second Signal group chat, this time with members of his family.
Details now from CNN's Natasha Bertrand.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Sources tell us that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth shared details about the U.S.'s military operation against the Houthis in a --
BERTRAND (voice-over): -- second Signal chat last month, this one on his personal phone, and that included his wife, lawyer, and his brother.
The chat included over a dozen people and was set up during the confirmation process as a way for him to strategize with some of his closest advisers, but he continued to use it after he was confirmed to discuss things related to the military.
Hegseth's lawyer and his brother both have jobs at DOD now, but his wife does not, and it's not clear whether she has a security clearance.
There is also already an inspector general review ongoing into Hegseth's use of Signal. And sources told CNN over the weekend that Hegseth has become increasingly concerned about that probe in recent weeks.
But at least publicly, Hegseth is projecting confidence.
BERTRAND: He told reporters on Monday that the leaks were coming from, quote, "disgruntled former employees."
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PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: See, this is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. It's not going to work with me.
BERTRAND: News of the second Signal chat broke around the same time that Hegseth's former top spokesperson, John Ullyot, wrote a scathing op-ed for "Politico," saying that the Pentagon under Hegseth is in, quote, "total chaos."
Ullyot wrote that, quote, "It's been a month of total chaos at the Pentagon. From leaks of sensitive operational plans to mass firings, the dysfunction is now a major distraction for the president, who deserves better from his senior leadership. It's hard to see Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth remaining in his role for much longer."
Ullyot's reference there to mass firings has to do with Hegseth's decision to fire three senior Pentagon officials last week, including two of his closest longtime advisers, Dan Caldwell and Darin Selnick.
BERTRAND (voice-over): We were told that the firings came after weeks of infighting between Hegseth's aides, including his chief of staff, and press leaks that rattled Hegseth so much that at one point, he actually demanded an FBI investigation.
His aides advised against that, because they argued it might only invite further scrutiny -- BERTRAND: -- at a time when he's already under investigation for his use of Signal.
Natasha Bertrand, CNN, in Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Juliette Kayyem is a CNN senior national security analyst. She's faculty chair of homeland security at Harvard University and a former assistant secretary at the Department of Homeland Security.
Welcome back. It's good to see you.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks for having me.
VAUSE: OK, so here's a little more of the secretary of defense speaking Monday on why the media is to blame for all of the problems at the Pentagon. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: This is what we're doing it for: these kids right here. This is why we're fighting the fake news media. This is why we're fighting slash-and-burn Democrats. This is why we're fighting hoaxsters. Hoaxsters.
This group. No, no, no, this group right here, full of hoaxsters that peddle anonymous sources from leakers with axes to grind. And then, you put it all together as if it's some news story.
And what do we know? We know exactly what it is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you deny the story, Mr. Secretary?
HEGSETH: So, I'm really proud of what we're doing for the president: fighting hard across the board. And I'm going to go roll some Easter eggs with my kids.
(END VIDE CLIP)
VAUSE: The defense secretary is clearly under stress right now, but what do you make of his -- just his demeanor and his tone in that clip?
KAYYEM: Yes. I mean, he doesn't seem capable of running the Pentagon right now. That was a lashing out. It was an odd tone. He doesn't seem to be sort of -- honestly, sort of fully in control of his emotions.
We need a secretary of defense who is focused on the defense of the United States and the defense of our interests. This is a man who's focused on pettiness and surviving in this job.
I personally do not think he will last very long, not simply because of his demeanor, but because of the allegations he does not deny about various Signal chats, unrest in the front office, and his inability to get support amongst the highest military leaders in this country.
VAUSE: Well, the headline from an op-ed in "Politico" -- it was written by a former Pentagon spokesperson -- is pretty blunt.
KAYYEM: Yes.
VAUSE: Here it is. "The last month has been a full-blown meltdown at the Pentagon, and it's becoming a real problem for the administration."
Now, in just 86 days, as defense secretary, Hegseth has used an unauthorized, unsecured messenger app called Signal to share details of a military strike on Houthi rebels at least once, reportedly twice.
Three senior Pentagon aides have been fired, accused of leaking. At least two plan legal action for unfair dismissal.
Hegseth's chief of staff has been transferred to another job within the department.
There's also Elon Musk allegedly planning on attending a classified briefing on plans for a hypothetical war with China.
And then last week, Hegseth snubbed the French armed forces minister by not greeting him on arrival at the Pentagon.
It seems you've really got to try hard to screw up that much in such a short period of time. How is this actually possible?
KAYYEM: Yes. You have to be unqualified for the job, and that shouldn't surprise anyone. Hegseth, as you and I have discussed before, did not have the temperament, the skills, the -- the management history, and nor -- nor the intellectual depth to run this Pentagon; to run a major institution that defends the United States. The fact that we know that now should not be a surprise.
The -- the irony of that editorial is it starts within the last month. They haven't even been in power for three months. Like, I mean, this is a third of his time as leader. He cannot control his own staff. He cannot manage the major issues of our time, and he cannot get the support of the military leaders that he needs as -- as their -- as their leader.
[00:50:09]
And -- and it's a nightmare that was utterly predictable when he was nominated and Senate Republicans voted for him.
VAUSE: So much for the first 100 days, huh? And while most look at a Pentagon right now, lurching from one crisis to the next, the U.S. president does not. Here he is.
KAYYEM: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, are you concerned about the level of chaos and dysfunction that's being described at your Pentagon?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: There's no dysfunction. Go ask the Houthis how much dysfunction. There is none. Pete's doing a great job. Everybody's happy with it.
They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people. And that's what he's doing. So, you don't always have friends when you do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: The White House is also denying an NPR report that Hegseth may soon be out of a job. Fake news, apparently.
But at this point, why wouldn't they be considered dumping him? How much damage is being done to a Pentagon run by a man who just isn't up to the job, but also dangerously incompetent?
KAYYEM: I mean, there's -- there's a lot of damage, and you're seeing it.
The irony, of course, is Donald Trump says, you know, he's there to -- to weed out all the wokeness and -- and all the bad people.
The people that left are Donald Trump's people. These are MAGA Republicans who came in to try to support Hegseth and find even Hegseth is not worthy of their -- of their support. And they -- and they have left.
So, this isn't outsiders trying to bring down Hegseth. Its Trump's own team.
Look, Trump will get rid of him. And I say that confidently, because for two reasons. One is it's taking attention away from Donald Trump. He doesn't like too many headlines that aren't about him.
And the second is you are starting to hear murmurs within the Republican Party that this is -- this is too messy, even for them. And once -- once -- once they have a name that they will put forward, I believe that Hegseth will see -- will have a very short tenure.
This is just not sustainable, even for the Trump White House, given the threats that exist.
VAUSE: And as you say, all of it entirely predicted and predictable.
Juliet, as always --
KAYYEM: Totally.
VAUSE: -- good to have you with us. Thank you.
KAYYEM: Thank you for having me.
VAUSE: The pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong bracing for yet another significant blow with one of the most prominent opposition parties disbanding and closing down, citing pressure from Beijing and a security crackdown which is making dissent virtually impossible.
CNN's Kristie Lu Stout has details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR/CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The party will soon be over. Hong Kong's largest opposition group, the Democratic Party, had long been a symbol of the city's freedoms.
But amid a national security crackdown, it will soon be no more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not what we wanted to see.
STOUT (voice-over): At the handover, '97, Beijing promised Hong Kong 50 years of one country, two systems autonomy.
In the wake of the 2019 protests, pressure on the city's freedoms intensified.
STOUT: This new reality has been shaped by a national security law imposed by Beijing. Electoral reform to make sure that only pro-China patriots govern Hong Kong and a second security law passed last year.
EMILY LAU, FORMER CHAIRPERSON, HONG KONG DEMOCRATIC PARTY: It's very, very sad. And we've been around for over 30 years, and we've got the support of many Hong Kong people. And it's very sad that we have to close down.
Hong Kong to be free.
STOUT (voice-over): Lau is a veteran lawmaker and former Democratic Party chair. She's dressed in the color of the pro-democracy movement.
LAU: I hope I won't get arrested for wearing yellow.
STOUT (voice-over): For more than three decades, Lau has been advocating for Hong Kong's democracy. These days, she visits her colleagues in detention or facing trial.
LAU: We will carry on. Maybe one day, I will disappear. I may get arrested, thrown into jail or whatever. But it has to go on.
Not that we want a revolution. We're not saying we're fighting for independence of Hong Kong or secession. No, we are fighting for the Chinese government to keep the promises of one country, two systems, the basic law, and the Sino-British Joint Declaration. And what is wrong with that?
STOUT (voice-over): The crackdown has drawn international ire. The Hong Kong government repeatedly says the rights and freedoms enjoyed by the people is protected under law.
The Democratic Party recently marked its 30th anniversary, just months before the party called its own future into question. LAU: Well, if it has to happen, it happens. But the game is not over,
and the struggle goes on.
STOUT: The game is not over, but the party will come to an end.
Kristie Lu Stout, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[00:55:04]
VAUSE: Thank you for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm John Vause. Please stay with us. I'll be back with more news after a very short break. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Tributes and praise amid the grief and sadness, ahead on CNN NEWSROOM.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BELL RINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Remembering an outspoken yet humble pope who charmed the world, inspiring both adoration and, at times, criticism, as well.
Also ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: U.S. markets tumbled Monday over continuing trade uncertainty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: And that uncertainty came directly from the U.S. president, criticizing and implied desire to fire the chairman of the Federal Reserve.
To the outside world, the U.S. Defense Department is lurching from one crisis to the next. To the U.S. president --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: There's no dysfunction at all. Ask the Houthis how much dysfunction. There's none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: A former high-ranking defense official disagrees, describing the Pentagon in full meltdown under Secretary Pete Hegseth.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Atlanta, this is CNN NEWSROOM with John Vause. VAUSE: From St. Peter's Square at the Vatican and around the world,
prayers and praise continue for a pope whose outspoken views and personal humility rattled conservatives and inspired change within the church.
