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Pope Francis Died Of Stroke And Subsequent Irreversible Heart Failure; World Leaders Praise Pope Francis And His Legacy; Stocks Tumble And Dollar Hits Three-Year Low As Trump Bashes Powell Again; Clerical Sex Abuse Scandal Stains Pope Francis' Legacy; Trump Defends Hegseth In Second Military Chat Controversy. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[01:00:00]

JOHN VAUSE, CNN HOST: From St. Peter's Square, at the Vatican and around the world, prayers and praise continue for a Pope whose outspoken views and personal humility rattled conservatives and inspired change within the church. According to Vatican officials, Pope Francis died of heart failure and a stroke Easter Monday. Nine days of traditional mourning will follow his funeral, with Vatican flags flying at half-staff.

The Holy Father is expected to lie in State at St. Peter's Basilica, allowing mourners to pay their respects. And according to his will, Francis asked to be buried in a simple tomb at the Basilica of St. Marie Maggiore, where his photos are now on display. The Pope's official residence has been sealed with a red ribbon and wax seal marking the start of the official grieving period.

Notably, Francis never lived there, preferring a more modest apartment at Casa Santa Marta, a Vatican guest house which has also been sealed. This is a tradition which began to prevent looting, but now symbolizes the formal end of a papacy.

Just hours before he died, the Pontiff delivered the traditional holiday blessing on Easter Sunday from the famous balcony of St. Peter's. He also rode in the Popemobile blessing babies as he moved slowly through the crowd.

With the death of Francis, it's been felt by so many around the world. It's the 1.4 billion Catholics who are grieving for the Holy Father. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports on how Catholics are mourning and honoring Pope Francis around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bells tolled across the Vatican as thousands flocked to St. Peter's Square to pay homage to Pope Francis. Moments after the announcement of his passing.

CARDINAL KEVIN FARREL, CAMERLENGO (through translator): At 7:35 this morning, the Bishop of Rome Francis returned to the house of the Father. WEDEMAN (voice-over): Those bells soon echoing around the world. In

Paris at Notre Dame Cathedral.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The best Pope of the era.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): To the heart of London.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a man of the people.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): To Bethlehem and the birthplace of Christianity itself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will pray for him and we love him so much.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): For the 88-year-old People's Pontiff, grief now touching those he touched, traveling the globe much as he did. A reflection of the paths he took as he sought to bring comfort in the Congo, where his 2023 visit was the first for the Papacy in nearly 40 years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): May God welcome his soul because the Pope really cared about us.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): To the Philippines, where in 2015 more than 6 million gathered in Manila to get a glimpse and a prayer.

JUDE AQUINO, ALTAR SERVER (through translator): For the youth like us. He's such a big role model.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): A role model that transcended borders, seeking to bridge politics and a humanitarian promise as he made more than 40 foreign trips to points all over the globe.

POPE FRANCIS, LEADER OF ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): Let us pray for the whole world because let us have a big brotherhood.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): He set the tone for his pontificate in his first speech and for the dozen years to follow known for humility, service and tolerance, a pope of firsts, the first modern day pope born outside of Europe and the first Jesuit to lead the Holy See.

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): God is peace. Let us ask him to help us to be peacemakers each day in our life, in our families, in our cities and nations, in the whole world.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): A peace he sought in the midst of war in Gaza, speaking almost nightly to the parish priest of the enclave's tiny Christian community before falling ill. That message uniting the world, at least for a moment as world leaders offer their condolences, including Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy posting to X, he knew how to give hope, ease suffering through prayer and foster unity, unifying even those at war in a shared reverence.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The pope has done a lot, not only for his flock, but for the world in general. WEDEMAN (voice-over): Even President Trump lowering flags to half-mast in honor of the Catholic leader, despite their differing views on immigration.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He was a good man, worked hard. He loved the world. And it's an honor to do that.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Live now to CNN's Jim Bittermann standing by in Paris. And Jim has covered five popes in his reporting career, so he is somewhat of an expert. And Jim, this pope who lived a humble life, he's bringing that sense of humility to his funeral as well. Sort of scaling back some of the excesses that we've seen in the past.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. And I think one of the main ones we're seeing, John, is the fact that he has purposely said he wants to be buried in the church of Santa Maria Maggiore.

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There are seven popes who are buried there. It's kind of exceptional for the Pope to be buried there. Most popes are buried beneath St. Peter's Basilica. And he said that he liked that church. He was a great believer in the spirituality of Mary and a believer in Mary. And so this church, which is dedicated to Mary, in fact, is something that he wanted to do. He wanted to be buried there in a very simple way. Grave that's going to be -- have very little marking ornamentation to it. He's already picked the spot out.

In any case, yes, I think it's -- you could see the tributes pouring in here. In France, for example, there were bells. As Ben pointed out, the bells at Notre Dame rang 88 times yesterday for each of his 88 years.

Note the Eiffel Tower was darkened last evening, unlike what we'd see on most typical evenings here in Paris and around the world. And there were tributes everywhere. A lot in Latin America, there will be days of mourning, including in places like communist Cuba and other places where the Pope was definitely celebrated and remembered very fondly. John.

VAUSE: So, Jim, in your experience, you know, talk about how this Pope, through his example, through his life, through his. Through his example and his personality, really brought about at least the perception of change within the Catholic Church. There was no changes to doctrine, but certainly the Catholic Church under his leadership had a very big makeover, if you like.

BITTERMANN: Well, yes, it did. I think that especially coming off Pope Benedict who preceded him and retired. In fact, Pope Francis was a real contrast. And one of the things was his openness to all sorts of things in modern, for example, use of the telephone to call up people. I know reporters that were called directly by the Pope and without reference to any of the Vatican's usual public relations people.

And, you know, there are a number of instances where he was out -- he went out and got his own glasses, for example, at a local optician in Rome. So, I mean, it just -- he was just an open, sort of honest and direct person, which I think was refreshing, because the trappings of the Vatican can be very seductive for somebody like a pope who is adored as the ultimate leader of 1.4 billion people, it's very easy to fall into the trap of listening to those around you and the applause of those around you. But Francis managed to avoid that and stay humble and just a figure of humility, as you mentioned.

VAUSE: Yes, not a red Prada slipper in sight for his time as Pope. Jim Bittermann, it's very good to See you, sir. Thank you for being with us.

BITTERMANN: Yes.

VAUSE: Dawn Eden Goldstein is a Catholic theologian, Canon Lawyer and Author, and she joins us now live from Washington. Thank you for staying up.

DAWN EDEN GOLDSTEIN, CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN, CANON LAWYER AND AUTHOR: Oh, thank you so much for having me on and giving me this opportunity to speak about Pope Francis.

VAUSE: Oh, grateful for you to be here. Now, for many, one of the most memorable moments during Francis's time as pope was this. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): If a person with homosexual tendencies is a believer and seeks God, who am I to judge?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Who am I to judge? It was such an historic moment. With just five words, he conveyed this deep sense of personal humility and compassion, which we've never seen from a pope before.

GOLDSTEIN: That's right. And I remember myself when he said that, because I was in my graduate theological studies and I was being taught by Dominicans, who are one of the more conservative orders, and I had received quite a bit of education on what the church says no to.

And here was a pope who was emphasizing the positive, emphasizing the yes, Emphasizing Jesus love for every person.

VAUSE: Yes. And his time as pope, though, left some progressives disappointed for not implementing major reform within the church, not changing doctrine. It angered many conservatives for going too far. It seems ultimately, he kind of charted his own course, really, didn't he?

GOLDSTEIN: Yes, he very much did. He was not somebody who wanted this job. He was expecting to go back to Argentina, as he had done at the previous conclave, when he was one of the cardinals who elected Benedict XVI. So he was not ambitious. He chose the name Francis on the spur of the moment when an elderly cardinal said to him, don't forget the poor.

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And that was the heart that he brought to everything he did. A heart for the poor, the marginalized people who felt excluded.

VAUSE: And to this end, you know, on issues like women in the church, he wasn't in favor of ordaining women as priests. But on the other hand, the Vatican now has more women in positions of power than ever before. So there was always this yin and a yang sort of going on with Francis.

GOLDSTEIN: Oh, very much so. In Francis first major interview, the one where he was saying that although issues such as abortion are important, we shouldn't be speaking about them all the time, he also affirmed that in his own words, he said, I am a son of the Church.

So he kind of held those two things in tension, where on the one hand, he. He was open to a great deal of change, and on the other hand, he wanted to be careful to preserve doctrine. The key to understanding him is understanding that he had a priest's heart, a pastor's heart, and where he couldn't change doctrine, he wanted to change and open up pastoral practice.

VAUSE: There's still this ongoing struggle within the church of sexual abuse of children like clergy. Critics say he did little more than PR and spin saying what sounded moral and right without pushing for any real accountability. Where does he stand on this?

GOLDSTEIN: I think that's a harsh judgment. I think that in future generations, historians will see many points at which he did call for greater accountability. With that said, Francis was educated in a generation where priests were not taught the type of accountability that's really demanded in today's.

So we can certainly hope that with the next pope and with future popes, there will be a greater understanding, a greater cognizance of specific steps that the Church has to take to make sure that -- to make sure that children and vulnerable adults are protected and that everyone is protected and welcome in the church.

VAUSE: Dawn, thank you for being with us. It's so good to have you up late at night to speak with us on your thoughts on Pope Francis. It's very much appreciated. Thank you.

GOLDSTEIN: Thank you.

VAUSE: The Pope was set to canonize the world's first millennial saint this Sunday, but that's obviously been delayed now. Carlos Kutas will receive the honor. He died of leukemia back in 2006, just 15 years old. Becoming a saint requires two miracles credited to that individual, and prayers to the teenager are said to have healed a Brazilian boy of pancreatic illness and a woman from Costa Rica who was nearly killed in a bicycle accident.

Still to come here on CNN, Pope Francis critical of the Trump administration's policies towards migrants and border walls. More on the relationship there and how the U.S. President is remembering Pope Francis.

Also another stock market sell off after one of these guys called the other one a major loser. No prizes for guessing who the numbers after the break.

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VAUSE: The U.S. President has spoken of Pope Francis as a good man and a hard worker, adding the pontiff's death is a personal tragedy for Catholics around the world. CNN's Jeff Zeleny has more now reporting in from the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: President Trump saying Monday that he and first lady Melania Trump will travel to Rome for the funeral at the Vatican for Pope Francis. The president is praising Pope Francis as a man who did good work, not speaking Monday about the really a contention that was the basis of much of their relationship over immigration, over building walls. But the president said he lowered flags at half-staff here at the White House to honor Pope Francis.

TRUMP: I just signed an executive order putting the flags of our country, all of them, all federal flags and state flags at half-mast in honor of Pope Francis. So he was a good man, worked hard. He loved the world and it's an honor to do that in the.

ZELENY: President saying positive words, remembering the legacy of Pope Francis, even talking about the Catholic vote that President Trump said he won in 2024. Of course, he split that with the nation's second Catholic president, Joe Biden, in 2020.

But again, it was that immigration policy that really caused much consternation between Pope Francis and the president, really dating back many years. But I'm remembering back to 2017 when President Trump visited Pope Francis for the first time. He said he walked away a bit starstruck by visiting the pontiff. So the U.S. President said he will travel to the Vatican to represent all U.S. Catholics at the funeral mass. Jeff Zeleny, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Former U.S. Presidents, all of whom met with the pontiff, have paid their respects as well. Joe Biden expressing great sadness, posting on social media. Pope Francis will be remembered as one of the most consequential leaders of our time. And I'm better for having known him. He went on to write, and above all, he was a pope for everyone. He was the people's pope, a light of faith, hope and love. Former U.S. President Barack Obama remembering the pope as, quote, the

rare leader who made us want to better people. Obama also wrote, may we continue to heed his call to never remain on the sidelines of this march of living hope.

Donald Trump taking another shot at the Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, calling him a major loser who's been too slow to cut interest rates.

Wall Street doesn't like the encroachment on the Fed's independence. And CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich reports on the fallout.

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: U.S. markets tumbled Monday over continuing trade uncertainty and President Donald Trump's efforts to undermine and oust Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. The Dow closed down 972 points after tumbling more than 1200 points during the day. And the Nasdaq and S and P closed down about 2 1/2 percent.

President Trump called the chair of the Federal Reserve a loser and directed him to lower interest rates. That rattled investors who feared for the Fed's independence. The Fed acts as a safety net for the U.S. economy, which includes fighting inflation, which most economists believe will rise amid President Trump's trade war.

The director of the White House Economic Counsel Kevin Hassett said the president is studying whether he can remove Powell. But many experts agree the president doesn't have that power.

Investors also dug in on the reality that there have been no trade deals made with key allies. And Beijing warn their trading partners not to isolate China like the US. The dollar also fell to its weakest level in three years, while gold, a safe haven for investors, hit a new record. Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Live now to the U.S. west coast and Christopher Clarke, professor of economics at Washington State University. Thank you for being with us.

CHRISTOPHER CLARKE, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY: Good evening. Pleasure to be here.

VAUSE: So for days now, the U.S. president has publicly criticized Fed Chair Jerome Powell essentially for holding rates steady. Here is the president speaking Friday. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I keep hearing about prices and inflation. Prices are coming down, not going up. Only the fake news says they're going up. The only thing that's even are interest rates. And if we had a Fed chairman that understood what he was doing, interest rates would be coming down, too. He should bring them down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: OK. It's not fake news. CPI for March was 2.4 percent, which means prices are not going down, they're going up. But it is close to the Fed's official goal of 2 percent. But that was a world before Trump imposed sweeping global tariffs.

So let's say the Fed chair was not guaranteed an independence by Supreme Court ruling and Powell was obliged to do as the president asked. What does that do to the inflation? What does the economy look like?

CLARKE: Well, that would be a catastrophic shift in the financial institutions that have governed the world's largest economy. And the consequences would be dire just from the shock alone. But in terms of what they would do to prices within, with tariffs coming, we're going to see higher prices. And if you're going to lower the inflate -- the interest rate, then that will fuel the economy, spurring prices to go up even higher.

VAUSE: And this isn't just a hypothetical. Here's part of a report from the Wall Street Journal just four years ago. After years in which he has weakened Turkish institutions and centralized power, Mr. Erdogan, Recep Tayyip Erdogan has now assumed broad control over the economy with no one within the government to oppose him. Former Turkish officials say. Erdogan has successfully pressured the central bank to slash interest rates despite rapid inflation.

So after peaking in more than 75 percent in May last year, inflation in Turkey has now eased to a gentle 38 percent. You know, I guess this isn't entirely apples for apples comparison, but it seems pretty close to what could happen in the U.S. if somehow Powell was fired.

CLARKE: Well, the laws of economics don't care what country you're from or what period in history you are. We have been studying monetary policy for a couple centuries, and what happened in Turkey could easily happen here.

VAUSE: So basically, the only check and balance on essentially what happened in Turkey and happening here is that Supreme Court ruling from the 1930s, I believe, that essentially guarantees the independence of the members of the Federal board as well as the chairman himself.

CLARKE: Right. And that independence we have found by comparing central banks across the globe, adds to more inflation stability. When a central bank is closely run by the government, there is pressure to keep those interest rates low, which lead to a higher long run average inflation rate.

VAUSE: OK, but the problem here, it seems, is that any kind of legal guarantees doesn't seem to mean a lot to the Trump White House. I want you to listen to an economic adviser to Donald Trump speaking on Friday about what they're actually looking at doing. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think firing Jay Powell is an option now in a way that it wasn't before?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The President (inaudible).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Just that mere fact alone that the administration is looking at ways to remove Powell, that's had a chilling effect on financial markets. How much is this now fueling the total lack of confidence in the US Economy?

CLARKE: It is absolutely one of the contributing factors. Not only is the world leader in trade shrinking back from that, but responsible financial management and professionalism, which is one of the core of doing business and one of the founding principles of capitalism, is all under threat being taken over by politicized and corrupt practices.

[01:25:05]

VAUSE: Christopher Clarke, succinct and to the point. Thank you, sir. Thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.

CLARKE: Thank you.

VAUSE: Well, as Catholics around the world mourn the death of Pope Francis, critics of the church say the clerical sex abuse scandal will now likely be passed to the next pontiff. That story in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:30:41]

VAUSE: Live pictures of Saint Peter's Square at the Vatican, where tributes are pouring in after Pope Francis died of a stroke and heart failure Monday. Worshipers said rosary prayers at the Santa Maria Maggiore Basilica in Rome, a church which held special significance for the late pontiff. He requested to be buried in a simple tomb at the Basilica, mirroring his humble papacy on earth.

The Pope spent some of his last hours giving the traditional Easter blessings from the balcony of Saint Peter's Square Sunday. He also rode in the Popemobile, greeted the crowds of faithful Catholics below.

While Catholics worldwide mourn Pope Francis, victims of the clerical sex abuse scandal are looking to the next pontiff to do what previous popes have not -- enact a universal zero tolerance law to stop the abuse and cover up, which has dogged the Catholic Church for centuries.

CNN's Barbie Nadeau reports now from Rome. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The clerical sex abuse scandal has tarnished the legacy of the last three popes, Pope Francis included.

Shortly after his election in 2013, Pope Francis spoke out on the scourge of clerical sex abuse.

POPE FRANCIS, PONTIFF, ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): It is a horrible crime. A priest needs to lead children to sanctity and children trust him.

But instead of leading them to sanctity, he abuses them. And this is terrible. I will make a comparison. It's like a satanic mass.

NADEAU: Clerical sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests, nuns, monks, friars and religious brothers against children has been documented since the 11th century.

Hushed up allegations drew public attention in the 1990s when Irish singer Sinead O'Connor tore up a photo of Pope John Paul II on "Saturday Night Live" to protest the cover ups.

SINEAD O'CONNOR, SINGER: Fight the real enemy.

NADEAU: But it was only when the "Boston Globe" published its spotlight investigation in 2002, the long-kept secret was out, and thousands more victims from all over the world started coming forward with claims.

The film about the case won an academy award in 2015, just two years into Francis' papacy, bringing the issue to a non-Catholic audience.

MARK RUFFALO, ACTOR: There's 2,800 priests who they know are absolute sexual predators, whose names have still not been released.

NADEAU: Like his predecessors, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, Francis met with victims from all over the world and apologized not only for abuse but for questioning their claims.

POPE FRANICS: What are the abused ones feeling? Here I have to apologize because the word "proof" hurt them. It hurt a lot of abused people. I apologize to them if I hurt them without realizing it, but it was a wound that I inflicted without meaning to.

NADEAU: And even when Francis issued a decree in 2019 ordering priests and nuns to report suspected abuse, little changed.

ANNE BARRETT DOYLE, CO-DIRECTOR, BISHOP ACCOUNTABILITY: Without this change, this problem which we see manifested in every single country that we look at will persist.

NADEAU: Giving Boston's Cardinal Bernard Law a funeral in Saint Peter's Basilica hurt victims more while Australian Cardinal George Pell, who Francis appointed to a senior position in the Vatican, was repeatedly accused of mishandling the scandal.

Francis did overhaul Canon Law to toughen up penalties against abusers and to force bishops to take action. He also led a summit on abuse in 2019, and set up a pontifical commission for the protection of children.

But shortly after he made those changes, even the church of Italy uncovered decades of abuse in the Vatican's own backyard during Francis' papacy.

POPE FRANCIS: But as long as there is just one priest who abuses a boy or a girl, this is monstrous because that man was chosen by God to bring children to heaven.

[01:34:44]

POPE FRANCIS: I understand that young people are scandalized by such great corruption. They know it is everywhere, but in the church it is more of a scandal because clerics are supposed to bring children to God and not destroy them.

NADEAU: Despite the best intentions to change the course for tens of thousands of clerical sex abuse victims worldwide, critics of the church say the problem remains implementation, accountability and follow through, meaning the painful scandal will be passed on to the next pope.

Barbie Latza Nadeau, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: In a moment here on CNN, the death of Pope Francis means the most vulnerable among us, especially refugees fleeing violence, have lost their most high-profile advocate.

[01:35:29]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: For Pope Francis, a world with millions of people forced to flee their homes because of poverty and violence, a world with refugees left voiceless and powerless was just unacceptable. He was a powerful advocate for what was moral and simply the right thing to do.

More now from CNN's Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pope Francis' 2013 trip to this tiny island set the tone for his papacy, making clear migrants and the poor would be a priority for him.

Lampedusa, Italy located off the coast of Sicily and just about 70 miles from Tunisia, is considered a port of entry to Europe for African migrants fleeing poverty and violence. During the Pope's mass, he condemned what he called the global

indifference to their plight and prayed for the refugees and migrants lost at sea.

Pope Francis called to reawaken our consciences to counter the indifference shown to migrants. "We have lost a sense of brotherly responsibility," he said.

The empathy toward other migrants carried through his papacy. In 2016, during a visit to Lesbos, Greece, Pope Francis not only told refugees they were not alone, he brought 12 of them back home with him to Rome.

The Pope's own ancestors emigrated to Argentina from Italy.

POPE FRANCIS: As the son of an immigrant family. I'm happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.

KAYE: Given his sympathetic stance on immigration, the pontiff found himself at odds with Donald Trump. In 2016, when then-candidate Trump vowed to build a wall along the southern U.S. border to keep migrants out, Pope Francis argued Trump could not claim to be a Christian based on his anti-immigrant stance.

POPE FRANCIS: A person who thinks about building walls wherever they may be and not building bridges is not Christian. This is not in the gospel.

KAYE: In 2017, during his first term, President Trump met with Pope Francis at the Vatican. Despite their differences on immigration, Trump appeared star struck.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is something. He is really great. We had a fantastic meeting and we had a fantastic tour. It was really beautiful.

KAYE: The following year, Pope Francis continued his call to action on behalf of migrants.

POPE FRANCIS: Do not extinguish the hope in their hearts.

KAYE: Just before President Trump began his second term, Pope Francis described Trump's planned mass deportations as a disgrace.

TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: He wants to attack us from securing our border. He's got a wall around the Vatican, does he not? So he's got a wall around to protect his people and himself. But we can't have a wall around the United States.

KAYE: The Pontiff's friction with the Trump administration was hardly evident during Vice President J.D. Vance's meeting with the Pope on Easter, that was just hours before he died and migrants around the globe lost their greatest crusader.

Randi Kaye, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE) VAUSE: We'll take another break.

When we come back, embattled U.S. Defense Secretary facing one crisis after another, leading to what some insiders are saying a Pentagon meltdown under his leadership.

[01:43:47]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: Catholics gathered in Buenos Aires in Argentina Monday to celebrate the life and service of Pope Francis. Across the region, countries have declared days of mourning for the first pope from Latin America.

The archbishop of Buenos Aires praised Francis for boldly facing some of the church's biggest problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORGE GARCIA CUERVA, ARCHBISHOP OF BUENOS AIRES (through translator): He put on the table and didn't hide the need for transparency in the church, the need for reforms in the church that were longed for.

Maybe for this reason, he was so criticized because he didn't quiet the problems but put them on the table. He didn't hide them or make them up, but proposed humanity take charge of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Many left flowers, candles, and thank you letters in honor of the Pope outside the Metropolitan Cathedral. Football Badgers were also among the mementos, a sign of the pontiffs love of the beautiful game.

Harvard University has hit back at the Trump administration in an escalating fight over federal funding. A lawsuit filed by the university argues that trying to force the university to submit to government control of its academic programs by withholding funds is a violation of constitutional rights. Says there's no rational connection between concerns over anti-Semitism and funding cuts for medical, scientific and other research.

The Trump administration is freezing more than $2 billion in federal money over claims Harvard has not done enough to curb anti-Semitism on campus.

Well, to Donald Trump there's no dysfunction at the Pentagon despite his Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, coming under fire for sharing military plans on yet a second Signal group chat, this time with members of his family, his wife, his brother. Why not?

CNN's Natasha Bertrand has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Sources tell us that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth shared details about the U.S.' military operation against the Houthis in a second Signal chat last month, this one on his personal phone, and that included his wife, lawyer and his brother.

The chat included over a dozen people and was set up during the confirmation process as a way for him to strategize with some of his closest advisers. But he continued to use it after he was confirmed to discuss things related to the military.

Hegseth lawyer and his brother both have jobs at DOD now, but his wife does not, and it's not clear whether she has a security clearance.

There is also already an inspector general review ongoing into Hegseth's use of Signal. And sources told CNN over the weekend that Hegseth has become increasingly concerned about that probe in recent weeks.

But at least publicly, Hegseth is projecting confidence. He told reporters on Monday that the leaks were coming from, quote, "disgruntled former employees".

PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: See, this is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. Not going to work with me.

BERTRAND: News of the second Signal chat broke around the same time that Hegseth's former top spokesperson, John Ullyot, wrote a scathing op ed for Politico, saying that the Pentagon under Hegseth is in, quote, "total chaos".

Ullyot wrote that quote, "it's been a month of total chaos at the Pentagon from leaks of sensitive operational plans to mass firings. The dysfunction is now a major distraction for the president, who deserves better from his senior leadership. It's hard to see Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth remaining in his role for much longer."

Ullyot's reference there to mass firings has to do with Hegseth's decision to fire three senior Pentagon officials last week, including two of his closest longtime advisers, Dan Caldwell and Darin Selnick.

[01:49:50]

BERTRAND: We were told that the firings came after weeks of infighting between Hegseth aides, including his chief of staff and press leaks that rattled Hegseth so much that at one point he actually demanded an FBI investigation.

His aides advised against that because, they argued, it might only invite further scrutiny at a time when he's already under investigation for his use of Signal.

Natasha Bertrand, CNN in Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Juliette Kayyem is a CNN senior national security analyst. She's faculty chair of homeland security at Harvard University and a former assistant secretary at the Department of Homeland Security.

Welcome back. It's good to see you.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks for having me.

VAUSE: Ok, so here's a little more of the Secretary of Defense speaking Monday on why the media is to blame for all of the problems at the Pentagon. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: This is what we're doing it for, these kids right here. This is why we're fighting the fake news media. This is why we're fighting slash and burn Democrats. This is why we're fighting hoaxsters (ph) -- hoaxsters. This group. No, no, no. This group right here, full of hoaxsters that peddle anonymous sources from leakers with axes to grind. And then you put it all together as if it's some news story.

And what do we know? We know exactly what it is. So I'm really proud of what we're doing for the president. Fighting hard across the board. And I'm going to go roll some Easter eggs with my kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: The Defense Secretary is clearly under stress right now, but what do you make of his just his demeanor and his tone in that clip?

KAYYEM: Yes. I mean, he doesn't seem capable of running the Pentagon right now. That was a lashing out. It was an odd tone. He doesn't seem to be sort -- honestly, sort of fully in control of his emotions.

We need a Secretary of Defense who is focused on the defense of the United States and the defense of our interests. This is a man who's focused on pettiness and surviving in this job.

I personally do not think he will last very long, not simply because of his demeanor, but because of the allegations he does not deny about various Signal chats, unrest in the front office, and his inability to get support amongst the highest military leaders in this country.

VAUSE: Well, the headline from an op-ed in "Politico", it was written by a former Pentagon spokesperson is pretty blunt. Here it is.

"The last month has been a full-blown meltdown at the Pentagon, and it's becoming a real problem for the administration."

Now, in just 86 days as Defense Secretary, Hegseth has used an unauthorized, unsecured messenger app called Signal to share details of a military strike on Houthi rebels at least once, reportedly twice.

Three senior Pentagon aides have been fired, accused of leaking at least two planned legal action for unfair dismissal.

Hegseth chief of staff has been transferred to another job within the department.

There's also Elon Musk allegedly planning on attending a classified briefing on plans for a hypothetical war with China.

And then last week, Hegseth snubbed the French armed forces minister by not greeting him on arrival at the Pentagon.

You know, it seems you've really got to try hard to screw up that much in such a short period of time. How is this actually possible?

KAYYME: Yes, you have to be unqualified for the job, and that shouldn't surprise anyone. Hegseth, as you and I have discussed before, did not have the temperament, the skills, the management history, and nor the intellectual depth to run this Pentagon -- to run a major institution that defends the United States.

The fact that we know that now should not be a surprise. The irony of that editorial is it starts within the last month. They haven't even been in power for three months. I mean, this is a third of his time as leader.

He cannot control his own staff. He cannot manage the major issues of our time, and he cannot get the support of the military leaders that he needs as their -- as their leader.

And it's a nightmare that was utterly predictable when he was nominated and Senate Republicans voted for him.

VAUSE: So much for the first 100 days, huh?

And while most look at a Pentagon right now, lurching from one crisis to the next, the U.S. President does not. Here he is.

KAYYEM: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, are you concerned about the level of chaos and dysfunction that's being described at your Pentagon?

TRUMP: There's no dysfunction at all. Ask the Houthis how much dysfunction there is. None. He's doing a great job. Everybody's happy with him. They just bring up stories.

I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people. And that's what he's doing. So you don't always have friends when you do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[01:54:49]

VAUSE: The White House is also denying an NPR report that Hegseth may soon be out of a job. Fake news, apparently. But at this point, why wouldn't they be considered dumping him? How much damage is being done to a Pentagon run by a man who just isn't up to the job, but also dangerously incompetent?

KAYYEM: I mean, there's a lot of damage, and you're seeing it. The irony, of course, is Donald Trump says, you know, he's there to weed out all the wokeness and all the bad people.

The people that left are Donald Trump's people. These are MAGA Republicans who came in to try to support Hegseth and find even Hegseth is not worthy of their support and they -- and they have left.

So this isn't outsiders trying to bring down Hegseth. It's Trump's own team.

Look Trump will get rid of him. And I say that confidently because for two reasons. One is it's taking attention away from Donald Trump. He doesn't like too many headlines that aren't about him.

And the second is you are starting to hear murmurs within the Republican Party that this is -- this is too messy even for them. And once -- once -- once they have a name that they will put forward I believe that Hegseth will see -- will have a very short tenure.

This is just not sustainable, even for the Trump White House, given the threats that exist.

VAUSE: And as you say, all of it entirely predicted and predictable. Juliette as always --

(CROSSTALKING)

VAUSE: -- good to have you with us. Thank you.

KAYYEM: Thank you for having me.

VAUSE: Passengers on board a Delta flight were forced to evacuate on Monday after one of the plane's engines caught fire on the tarmac at Orlando International Airport.

Shortly after leaving the gate, the flight crew noticed flames erupting from the engine's tailpipe. First responders raced to the scene, as first responders often do, as more than 200 travelers exited the aircraft using emergency slides.

No injuries have been reported. The incident is currently under investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.

Thank you for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm John Vause.

Please stay with us. Our coverage on the death of Pope Francis continues with Rosemary Church here in Atlanta and Isa Soares right after this.

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