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Mourners Gather In St. Peter's Square To Honor Late Pontiff; IMF: U.S. & Global Economies To Slow Sharply Due To Tariffs; White House: China Trade Deal "Moving In The Right Direction"; Harvard Sues Trump Administration Over Funding Freeze; Hegseth Under Scrutiny After Second Signal Group Chat Revealed. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:24]

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm Max Foster in London.

ISA SOARES, CNN HOST: And I'm Isa Soares, coming to you live from Rome, where mourners are continuing to gather following the death of Pope Francis.

Later, we'll take a look at the possible candidates to be the next pope.

But first, this evening, these are the scenes, and we'll bring it to you in Vatican City this hour. It's just gone 9:00 in the evening, where people continue to arrive and been arriving all throughout the day at St. Peter's Square to pay their last respects to Pope Francis. The late pontiff died on Easter Monday after suffering a stroke, as well as heart failure. Francis's coffin is expected to be transferred to St. Peter's Basilica on Wednesday, and then his funeral is to take place this Saturday.

Meantime, cardinals from around the world have started to make their way to the Vatican to attend the funeral, as well as prepare for the conclave. That is, of course, a highly secretive process of selecting a pope, which is steeped in centuries of tradition. This time around, many of the cardinals involved will have been selected by Pope Francis himself during his 12-year papacy.

Christopher Lamb is here with me.

And, Christopher, before we start talking really about what the next pope will look like, who that might be, and the direction of the church that, you know, the pope, the next pope will take, y. Youve just had the incredibly lucky and privileged moment of being able to go to Casa Santa Marta, where the popes coffin is lying in rest, and you were able to see the pope.

Speak to that, what was that like? How emotional that was for you as a Vatican correspondent, but also the people who were there to also pay their respects?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a very emotional moment because those of us who've covered Pope Francis closely obviously invested a lot in reporting on this papacy. You know, the amount of times that I've said, Pope Francis did this on air or written Pope Francis in an article. I can't count the times.

So, it was very emotional to see him lying there in the coffin. You know, when I saw it, him you feel that, you know, his personality. He's not there. But it obviously brought back a lot of memories and emotions to be there in the chapel of the Casa Santa Marta, a beautiful chapel, a modern chapel where he used to celebrate mass each day.

And, well, when I went up there, I was accompanied with by CNN's Antonia Mortensen, who works at the Rome bureau as producer. She came with me and we went to, first of all, queue up to go in. It was the long queue of Vatican employees, officials.

I mean, basically, it was a question of just try and get in, you know? We weren't told you couldn't go, so we just tried to go and we weren't turned away. So, it was a really an amazing experience and a very moving one. And I think I imagine tomorrow, there'll be big crowds who will go to St. Peter's to see Francis.

SOARES: Speak to what we're likely to see tomorrow. We're looking at images of the of the chapel, as you were saying there at Casa Santa Marta. Tomorrow, we'll see the procession. When, of course, his coffin will move to St. Peter's. Square. So, St. Peter's Basilica speak to what we're likely to see tomorrow morning. And the importance, of course, of the procession and the route it's taking.

LAMB: Well, tomorrow, we're going to see the pope be transferred from the chapel of the Santa Marta to St. Peter's Basilica, where he will lie in state, and people are going to be able to pay their respects. And then, of course, the funeral will be on Saturday, and that will take place in St. Peter's Square, and it will be presided at by the dean of the College of Cardinals, Cardinal Battista Re. And now, this is a view of watched conclave. Know the dean --

SOARES: I think everyone's watched "Conclave". At this point, I think everyone knows the machinations going on.

LAMB: So the dean plays an important role in organizing the conclave, and he will preside at the funeral, and then the pope will be transferred to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, where he has decided he's going to be buried. He's the first pope in, I think, 300 years to decide to be buried at Santa Maria Maggiore, which was a church that was very close to his heart. He used to go there before and after each foreign trip.

SOARES: I read he went something like 125 times.

LAMB: Yes.

SOARES: And the importance of that, especially the importance of the Virgin Mary to him.

[15:05:00] LAMB: That was hugely important. And he wrote in his last testament that that the Virgin Mary, he felt was, was protecting him throughout his life. And so it's quite fitting that he wants to be buried there. So close to an icon of the Virgin Mary is very devoted to the Salus Populi Romani, which is linked to the Roman people. So, he decided, has decided to be buried in a very simple tomb, just Franciscus, which I think sends a strong message.

And he's also, of course, arranged for the costs of his burial to be covered.

SOARES: That is so -- that's such a Pope Francis thing to do, isn't it?

LAMB: Well, it's a bit like him paying his hotel bill. After he was elected, which he surprised people when he did that.

SOARES: And I think it's that simplicity, that humility, that sense of compassion that, you know, this is something I kept hearing throughout the day today that people will want to see that kind of continuation. And I know no one's going to give me an answer, but what is your sense? It's a wide field of contenders. Do you think we're going to see the continuation of that?

LAMB: Well, look, I think broadly speaking, there's sort of three different directions that the church or the cardinals could go. One would be to say we really want to continue very much with the Francis line.

SOARES: Yeah.

LAMB: Another school would be saying, well, we want to try and row back here. We're not happy. And then I think there might be quite a few who say, yes, we want to continue in the Francis way, but perhaps in a different style, perhaps a bit more cautiously. So, I think those are the kind of questions that the cardinals are going to be looking at. But I think a key one for whoever is elected pope is what is the church that they're coming from look like.

So the church, the Catholic Church is growing in Asia, Africa. So, are there candidates from those parts of the world where the church is growing who are suitable or who are papabile, as they say?

SOARES: And there is one in particular that I think is from the Philippines. You'll be able to tell me that's Luis Antonio Tagle, who is relatively young.

LAMB: Relatively young.

SOARES: But he is seen as a young Pope Francis.

LAMB: An Asian Francis.

SOARES: An Asian Francis, as he's called. Yes, exactly. We shall see. Very much. An open field.

Thanks very much. Appreciate it. Thanks to Christopher Lamb.

Well, earlier, I spoke with some of those grieving here in Rome. In fact, at the Vatican, who told me of their sorrow as well as their fondness of Pope Francis. Have a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was a good pope. I just hope that we have. Someone that's just as good that takes his place. We were lucky to have him for as long as we did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two of the pope's sayings that always stayed with us were, pray for me, and he called for young people to not stay still, to not be boring youngsters like the others, and to go and meet others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am not a very Catholic person, not a very religious person, but for me, it was the pope for the people because he helped to open the church to all the people. That's my opinion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me, myself. I would really like to have a pope that would be a bit more progressive. Probably that's not a --

SOARES: We shall see.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We shall see what comes next.

SOARES: From sadness to gratitude, what I've heard here is a deep appreciation for Pope Francis. And there was one unifying message from everyone I've spoken to. And that is a man of the people. And it is here on these grounds, St. Peter's Square, that his funeral will be held. Dignitaries, world leaders, most importantly, the people paying their final respects to Pope Francis.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: And that is very much the message I heard today. While Pope Francis's legacy is being remembered today in his hometown of Buenos Aires in Argentina, earlier mourners attended a mass at Buenos Aires Cathedral honoring the world's first Latin American pontiff and first non-European pope in more than a millennium.

Cecilia Dominguez joins us now from Buenos Aires, Argentina.

So, Cecilia, give me a sense of what -- how people are remembering really one of their own.

CECILIA DOMINGUEZ, CNN REPORTER: Hello, Isa. How are you? We are working at the Metropolitan Cathedral of Buenos Aires. Right now, the interreligious ceremony encounter is a star -- is starting. It will start in just a few -- few minutes.

There's like an introduction. Now, this is what's happening inside the cathedral. There are some representatives of various faiths and also, some of the members of President Milei's cabinet members are here at the cathedral. The idea of this interreligious encounter is to honor -- honor Pope

Francis's legacy. The idea is to pray for Pope Francis.

As you can see, many people are still coming inside the church. There are screens showing. As you can see Bergoglio -- Pope Francis's life, images, pictures. And many people are coming inside just to be part of this inter-religious encounter. Besides -- after that, there's going to be a mass presided over by the archbishop of the city of Buenos Aires.

And we're going outside the cathedral just to show you how many mourners, as you know, since yesterday, many mourners have gathered here just to bring flowers, to bring candles, to bring pictures, and -- and also flags and football badges just to honor and pay tribute to Pope Francis.

The idea is that what they wanted to do, what mourners wanted to do was to build this memorial site to honor Pope Francis. This is what is happening. The cathedral will close its doors at 8:00 p.m., this in a few hours.

So, tomorrow, they are opening its doors again very early in the morning so that people can say goodbye to Pope Francis -- Isa.

SOARES: Thank you very much, Cecilia.

Argentinians taking the time to say goodbye to one of their own. Football clubs, important, his club is their club since he was very young boy was San Lorenzo. Hence why Cecilia was referencing that. So important.

Thank you, Cecilia.

And still to come today, a stark warning from the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, the impact it says U.S. President Donald Trump's trade war will have on the global economy. We'll have that discussion next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: Now to an issue that affects nearly everyone watching right now and that is your money. The IMF says the world economy is heading for a slowdown this year and next. It predicts most economies will grow more slowly than expected.

Just months ago, it says U.S. growth will be especially hurt.

[15:15:02]

The culprit? President Donald Trump's trade war.

After a steep selloff on Monday, stocks on Wall Street are sharply higher heading into the close. Even so, the Dow Jones is currently on track for its worst April since the Great Depression, would you believe? Investors running for cover, finding it in gold, the rare commodity hitting record highs amid tariff uncertainty. Richard Quest joins us now from Dubai.

I guess, you know, this was inevitable, but its pretty stark when you look at the numbers.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: The -- both the growth numbers from the IMF are worrying, particularly when they call it a major negative shock on the tariffs. I'm not surprised to see the gold rallying so sharply. You have the oldest story in the book about it being the last big safe haven.

But if you bear in mind the questions that have been raised over U.S. government bonds and the sanctity of you will of U.S. government borrowings, then you realize gold is the last bastion. It's the only game left in town. And I think that's what you're seeing.

As for today's rally, it's a bit of a smoke and mirrors rally. It's largely on the back of comments, for example, of Vance with Prime Minister Modi in India, and Scott Bessent saying that he believes that a U.S.-China trade deal is on the cards. So that's given a bit of hope, if you will, to markets that are otherwise grasping at straws they can.

FOSTER: Yes. So, lots of people, investors hoping there will be some sort of trade deal because I'll show that more trade deals might follow, right?

Just going to that sound bite on China, this is what the White House said earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president and the administration are setting the stage for a deal with China. So, we feel everyone involved wants to see a trade deal happen and the ball is moving in the right direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: I mean, it's a hugely complex thing, isn't it? A trade deal with a country like China, but it probably is. The reassurance markets are looking for, isn't it, Richard?

QUEST: It is. But I think what you have to take in mind from it is if those are the sort of comments that can send the market up by, say, a thousand points, then it can go down as quickly, if not twice as quickly if that trade deal doesn't materialize, if it isn't as good as people thought, or you know what are in such a fragile environment where the market is responding to this comment or that comment, that it would be a very brave person to sort of take any comfort from the current direction. Which is why, once again, you look at gold as being the harbinger of doom and the harbinger of last safe haven, as it has been for so many years, for centuries, indeed.

The other one is crypto. Crypto is still not fully accepted as a real safe haven. FOSTER: Okay, Richard in Dubai, back with you later. Thank you so

much.

Now to a monumental clash in the United States that could have implications far beyond the halls of academia. Harvard University is suing the Trump administration to block a federal funding freeze after the school rejected a list of White House demands that it calls illegal. The White House press secretary says the administration will respond in courts.

More than 170 leaders from universities, including Princeton and Brown, are now showing solidarity. They signed a joint statement against what they call the, quote, unprecedented government overreach and political interference now endangering American higher education.

Let's bring in CNN's Kara Scannell for more on this.

Because this is, you know, this is a really profound conflict, isn't it, between two very powerful sectors.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is, Max. And we're really seeing this fight really escalate with the filing of the lawsuit by Harvard late yesterday, where they're saying that the Trump administration has violated numerous laws, including the First Amendment and the Constitution, as well as certain administrative laws that govern the actual process of federal funding because under those rules, if the government wants to revoke or withhold some funding, they have to take certain steps.

And the administration, the Harvard is saying the administration didn't do that. But at the crux of this is the tension between academia and the government. And Harvard is saying in the lawsuit that they believe the Trump administration is trying to assert control over Harvard's academic freedom, including its freedom of teaching, who it hires and its students because as part of the demands that that Harvard received from the administration that included a government audit of the hiring practice and the admissions practice, because the administration said they wanted more diverse voices in that community. So, this lawsuit is the latest salvo here.

[15:20:00]

Interestingly, as you said, a number of university presidents signed this letter standing behind Harvard. And today, earlier this morning, the education secretary, Linda McMahon was on CNBC. And in that interview, she said that while the administration did not see that demand letter as their final offer, they would hope that Harvard would come back to the table to negotiate with them.

Harvard asking the judge in this lawsuit to move expeditiously. And of course, they want the judge to stop this funding freeze, as well as any other related actions -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay. Kara, thank you. Witnesses are describing an horrific scene in the disputed Himalayan region of Jammu and Kashmir, where gunmen opened fire on a group of tourists. Authorities say 26 people have been killed in the suspected terror attack in an Indian controlled area. They say it's the worst attack against civilians in the region in years.

India's army says a search operation is underway for the gunmen. Prime Minister Narendra Modi vows they will be brought to justice.

Russian President Vladimir Putin says he's open to bilateral talks with Ukraine. President Putin says his country has a positive attitude towards a ceasefire. This is the first time he's made such remarks since Moscow's invasion more than three years ago. It comes as U.S., European and Ukrainian officials are due to meet in London this week. Washington has warned that it could abandon its efforts towards ending the conflict if progress isn't made towards securing a peace deal.

And from Russia with love, CNN is getting a glimpse of a Donald Trump portrait gifted by Mr. Putin. You may recall that in March, the Russian president sent Mr. Trump a portrait via Trump envoy Steve Witkoff. Well, this is it. The artist in Moscow gave CNN an exclusive look at the painting, and the Kremlin confirms it. It shows President Trump raising his fist. That was last July after a failed assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania.

CNN's Matthew Chance met with the Russian painter who created that portrait.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIKAS SAFRONOV, RUSSIAN ARTIST (through translated text): It was very important to me to show the blood, the scar and his bravery during the attempt on his life.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well, this is the first glimpse of what we're told is a portrait gifted to President Trump by Vladimir Putin in March. You can see the Russian artist who we met in Moscow was pretty kind, showing Trump looking heroic, even trim.

SAFRONOV (through translated text): He didn't break down or become afraid, but raised the arm to show he is one with America and will bring back what it deserves.

CHANCE: The painting handed to Trump envoy Steve Witkoff was clearly meant to flatter, as Trump and Putin discuss ending the Ukraine war and rebuilding ties.

And apparently it worked. Witkoff said Trump was touched at what he called the beautiful portrait.

Safronov is one of Russia's most famous artists and has painted dozens of world leaders before. The late Pope Francis and, of course, Vladimir Putin. The Trump painting, he told me, was commissioned by a patron he suspected was the Kremlin.

SAFRONOV (through translated text): I realized this could bring our countries closer. CHANCE: Later, he says he was contacted by President Putin himself, who told him the flattering Trump portrait was an important step in Russia's relationship with the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Well, still to come, cardinals are on their way to the Vatican to pick a new pope. We'll take a look at who some of the top candidates are.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:40]

SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. I'm Isa Soares, coming to you live from Rome, where it's just gone, 21 minutes, at 27 minutes past -- past 9:00.

The funeral for Pope Francis is to be held this Saturday, with mourners from around the world set to attend. Among them the cardinals, who will pick a new pope.

As CNN's Ben Wedeman explains, those who entered the conclave as favorites, well, they aren't often the ones elected.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of the top candidates to succeed Francis is the man who served as his second in command, the current Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Pietro Parolin.

From visiting war-torn Ukraine to brokering a deal that saw the Holy Sea meant ties with China. The 70-year-old Italian is seen as a skilled diplomat and a conciliatory figure who could appeal to both conservatives and progressives.

His election, however, could lead to clashes with the Trump administration as he has rebuked the U.S. president's Gaza Plan.

Another top contender is Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu of the Democratic Republic of Congo. A strong defender of democracy and human rights, Ambongo has been cardinal since 2019.

CARDINAL FRIDOLIN AMBONGO BESUNGU, DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO (Through translator): I am happy. I'm aware of the responsibility this appointment brings.

WEDEMAN: That responsibility has seen him stand up to warlords and corrupt leaders becoming a respected moral voice. The 65-year-old is also the leader of a massive local church of more than 7 million people and represents the growing church in Africa.

A surprise candidate may be Cardinal Robert Prevost from the United States. America's global influence has made electors shy away from choosing a U.S. pope in the past but the 69-year-old from Chicago spent many years working in Peru before leading the powerful Vatican office for bishop appointments and he shouldn't be ruled out.

The top contender though may hail from one of the corners of the globe where the church has been growing and few cardinals are as charismatic as Luis Antonio Tagle from the Philippines, often dubbed the Asian Francis.

[15:30:09]

CARDINAL LUIS ANTONIO TAGLE, FORMER ARCHBISHOP OF MANILA: We believe that Jesus is alive and he was born in the -- ministered, he died and rose from the dead in Asia.

WEDEMAN: The 67-year-old led the church's charitable arm as well as the Vatican Department of Evangelization. And he may be well- positioned as the church pivots toward parts of the world where it's expanding.

Still, it's impossible to say which, if any of these candidates will be chosen. If there's anything we can glean from past conclaves, it's that, usually, the favorites don't get picked.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: That is indeed a case, is what we saw, of course. If you remember with Pope Francis, he wasn't one of the favorites. Yes, he's the one who picked the first pope, of course, from Latin America and the first from outside Europe in something like 800 years. Well, in the coming days, we will start seeing senior figures in the Catholic Church making their way to the Vatican to prepare for that moment, for the conclave. That very secretive process that has been steeped in tradition.

So how exactly does it work?

Our Nick Watt explains it all for you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new pope to lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics will be chosen by just around 130 cardinals in a mysterious, many-centuries-old rite -- the Conclave -- conclave -- "with a key."

REV. THOMAS REESE, S.J. SENIOR ANALYST, RELIGION NEWS SERVICE: They're locked in the Vatican and all their phones are taken away. They're not allowed to communicate with the outside world until they elect a vote.

WATT: Every cardinal under the age of 80 is summoned to Rome for this and must swear an oath of secrecy punishable by excommunication.

REESE: It's a secret ballot. The cardinals don't even know who voted for whom.

WATT: Father Reese says the movie "Conclave" got it almost right.

STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR: You have to commit to a side.

WATT: Except a secretly elected cardinal would never be allowed in. And the cardinal's robes were slightly the wrong color.

REESE: I think Hollywood got it better than the Catholic Church. I like the deeper red.

WATT: By day the cardinals will sit in silence and prayer in the Sistine Chapel under Michelangelo's magnificent ceiling. Two votes in the morning, two in the afternoon until one candidate wins two-thirds of the ballots. By night, they stay in a boarding house nearby where the horse trading happens late into the evening.

REESE: Different cardinals will go around pushing for the candidate that they would like to see become pope. Your friends have to do that for you.

You cannot do that yourself. That would indicate a level of pride that would be unacceptable in a pope.

WATT: The pope just has to be male and Catholic but since 1389, the cardinals have always elected one of their own. After every inconclusive round of votes, the smoke from the chapel chimney is black.

Ballots are burned with some chemicals thrown into create the color. When a new pope is chosen, the smoke is white. At the last Conclave, there was a problem.

REESE: The monsignor in charge of the stove didn't follow the directions and the smoke came out gray and everybody in St. Peter's Square was scratching their heads.

WATT: So they rang the biggest bell in the square as well.

REESE: And as soon as you see it swinging, you know it's over.

WATT: The new pope chooses a name and is ushered to the Room of Tears.

REESE: And in that room, they will have three sets of papal garments, the white cassock that the pope wears, one small, one medium and one large.

WATT: For the new pope to wear when he walks out onto that famous balcony in St. Peter's Square.

So the Conclave will convene in just a little over two weeks from now. How long they'll take? Well, that's an open question. You know, back in the 1200s, they once took nearly three years. That was to elect Pope Gregory X.

Recent years, it's more likely two or three days. That's going to become the norm. Now the fact that there's no clear frontrunner, that might add a little time, something that might take away a little time, is 80 percent of these electors, these cardinals, were appointed by Pope Francis.

So there's a decent chance they might be on a similar page. And remember, these cardinals are not just choosing the next pope. They're essentially also choosing the direction that the church is going to take over the next few years.

Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: Let's explore that then. Who likely will be the next pope?

Joining us now is Claire Giangrave. She is the Vatican reporter for Religion News Service.

Claire, I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us.

You know, of the 135 cardinals who are under the age of 80, who are eligible, of course, to vote, 108 were appointed -- were appointed by, by Pope Francis. And I think they come from countries something like 20 countries, 20 places and even have a cardinal before.

[15:35:03]

So give us an understanding -- your thoughts of who the top candidates are here because as we heard from our correspondent, it is very much an open field at this stage.

CLAIRE GIANGRAVE, VATICAN REPORTER, RELIGION NEWS SERVICE: Absolutely. I would just keep in mind, though, as we think. About numbers and statistics, that the conclave that elected Pope Francis was in fact decided and selected by other representatives, by other popes who would be considered more conservative, for example. So, John Paul II and Benedict XVI had decided, the cardinals who eventually elected Pope Francis.

So he can yes, stack the college of cardinals to a certain extent, but it's hard to really come up with a real decision. Will it be a progressive like we think Pope Francis is, or will it be someone more conservative?

Now a few names are being thrown out already. An evergreen candidate is the number two official at the Vatican, Cardinal Pietro Parolin. This is a man who has worked closely with the pope, who understands the pope. And more than anything, in this conclave of strangers coming from all over the world. He has met with many of these cardinals.

FOSTER: Yeah. And look, and perhaps the question I should have framed, Claire, to you is, you know, what is the direction you think that the church will want to go? Will it want to see a continuation of Pope Francis, or do you think it will take a more restrained, perhaps outlook, you think? GIANGRAVE: Well, what I'm hearing from Rome right now is that there

-- the polarization that exists in our society has seeped into the conclave as well. So, we have a strong group of people who are like minded with Pope Francis. We can name a few cardinals. And that cohort. Cardinal Matteo Zuppi, the head of the Italian bishops, but also Cardinal Luis Tagle from the Philippines and several others who would like to see Pope Franciss vision be pushed forward and continue.

And then there are a smaller but organized group of cardinals who think instead that its time to rein in some of the more progressive aspects of Pope Francis's pontificate. This includes his outreach to LGBTQ Catholics, but also his restrictions on the Latin mass and liturgy, which were known as the liturgy wars in the Catholic world. And now representatives from that camp would be Cardinal Sarah, for example, and several others.

So, we're going to see these two battle a little bit, probably in this conclave.

SOARES: And just picking up from what you've just told me, Claire, then what would you say? Giving us a sense in terms of direction of the church would be Pope Francis greatest legacy.

GIANGRAVE: Well, if we're thinking about the conclave, there are certain things that Pope Francis did that cant be undone. He hasn't changed doctrine at the end of the day, in these 13 years, almost, he hasn't changed the teaching of the church.

But there are people who weren't used to be at the table, who weren't used to being invited into the conversation. I'm thinking of advocates for LGBTQ Catholics. I'm thinking of people who were on the outskirts of the church, people who are now used to seeing a pope who is more humble, who doesn't wear all the -- hasn't had -- doesn't have all the bells and whistles that the popes sometimes have had in the past.

And that kind of change is really hard to forget and to ignore. So, it's likely that whoever comes next is going to have to somehow face this legacy and take on that responsibility, because the world and the 1.4 billion Catholics across the globe will not be able to get used to go back, perhaps, to the way it was before.

SOARES: Indeed. I mean, that transparency that, you know, humility, clearly that resonated with so many right around the world in particular, we're seeing growing numbers in the Asia Pacific region, which is which says a lot, really, the idea of Pope Francis going out to his flock.

Claire Giangrave, I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. Thank you. Claire.

GIANGRAVE: Thank you.

SOARES: And still to come right here, the U.S. defense secretary is firing back in the midst of yet another controversial group chat scandal. Why? Pete Hegseth says he has no plans to step down from his post. Max Foster has that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:42:33]

FOSTER: The White House is standing firmly behind the U.S. defense secretary, embroiled in a second signal chat controversy. Pete Hegseth isn't disputing the existence of a separate chat on his personal phone with his wife, brother and personal attorney, amongst others, but he is denying that any of the information he shared about military plans was classified.

President Trump's press secretary had this to say on the matter a short while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Let me reiterate, the president stands strongly behind Secretary Hegseth in the change that he is bringing. They were Pentagon employees who leaked against their boss to news agencies in this room. And it's been clear since day one from this administration that we are not going to tolerate individuals who leak to the mainstream media, particularly when it comes to sensitive information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Sabrina Singh is a former deputy Pentagon press secretary.

Thank you so much for joining us. I mean, they, of course, you know, the journalists are obviously addressing the point whether or not he did this, but the, you know, the White House, the press secretary, aren't addressing that. They're -- they've got more of an issue that it was leaked. What do you make of it?

SABRINA SINGH, FORMER DEPUTY PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on.

Look, it's clear that the White House, the Department of Defense, you know, the secretary of defense wants to do everything possible right now to point the blame at someone else. And so, they're blaming the media. They're blaming former employees, you know, that they're disgruntled.

The reality is, is that the media isn't the one that typed up sensitive military operations before a strike and put it into a signal thread, both with the national security apparatus and then separately with, you know, Pete Hegseth senior team, and which includes, apparently his wife, his brother and his personal lawyer. The media didn't do that. The former employees that he just fired also didn't type that up and put them into Signal threads.

So, again, you know, they're going to continue to do this blame game. But the reality is, is that the person who's culpable here and who really needs to take the most accountability is the secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth. FOSTER: President Trump, obviously standing by his man. But, you

know, if it keeps happening, this sort of thing, it becomes a problem he doesn't need, doesn't it?

SINGH: Absolutely. And I think Donald Trump is someone that doesn't necessarily like the attention shifted off of him, shifted off of the priorities that he wants to talk about. And the fact that this is, you know, a very serious story that deserves not just public scrutiny, but congressional investigations, independent inspector general's investigations into this.

[15:45:12]

That's certainly going to detract from Donald Trump's, you know, agenda, whether it be on tariffs or the economy or something else. And at the end of the day, you know, I don't think loyalty no matter how loyal you are to the president, the president is always going to look out for himself. And so, we'll see where Pete Hegseth really ends up at the end of the at the end of the day.

FOSTER: Yeah. I mean, in these situations, you've been in situations where a story has run away with itself, it becomes a problem. You can't do your work, right. I mean, when does it become a problem for the White House? If, I mean, how long will it go on for do you think?

SINGH: You know, it's hard to say. It's clear that there are more signal messages out there. You know, it was reported that there could be up to 20 different signal messages that were used by members of the national security team. So, I think if other people get their hands on that this is a story that has a lot of legs.

But, you know, what's really important here is like, this story is already is very important because, you know, the secretary of defense, the person that is in charge of safeguarding our men and women in uniform, looking out for civilian career employees literally endangered the lives of the American pilots that were going up and conducting the operation and the sailors in the Red Sea that were launching some of those missiles towards the Houthis.

By putting information like this out in an unclassified you know, texting app, an app that we both have on our phone. So, it's very problematic. And I certainly think this is a story that's going to continue and deserves to be looked into further.

FOSTER: We don't think those operations were harmed at all by this, do we? And were also getting the impression they're not using Signal anymore. They are using more secure methods of communication. Is that enough?

SINGH: Well, they should be using the methods of communication that include the classified systems and following the protocols. So we shouldn't give them too much thanks there. That's also something that should have just been their job from the beginning on day one, stepping into office.

But look, you know, of course they need to follow those protocols. At the end of the day, this was a successful operation and should be applauded. Because our men and women in uniform are the best of the best, and they're able to conduct these operations with sophistication and you know, with -- with absolute professionalism.

But what they don't deserve is the person that's in charge of looking out for their lives, literally putting their lives at risk.

FOSTER: Okay. Sabrina Singh, thank you so much. And this story that just doesn't seem to go away. Thank you for joining us.

This just in, the Environmental Protection Agency in the U.S. is firing or reassigning hundreds of employees. The announcement from the top U.S. government agency on the environment comes on Earth Day, and it targets about 280 employees affiliated with diversity efforts. We'll be back in a moment.

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[15:50:48]

SOARES: Well, I want to take you back to Vatican City where people continue to arrive. As you can see, it's ten minutes to 10:00 p.m. St. Peter's Square to pay their final respects to Pope Francis. The late pontiff died on Easter Monday after suffering a stroke, as well as heart failure and his funeral mass, as we've been telling you on the show, is to be held on Saturday morning, Rome time.

And then in the coming weeks, cardinals from really from all over the world will face a difficult question, who will become the next leader of the Catholic church? Well, after presiding over his predecessor's funeral, Pope Francis simplified some of the protocols and chose to be buried outside of the Vatican. That is something.

Christopher Lamb looks at why the pontiff decided to lie in a basilica in Rome, and what it meant to him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: Well, behind me is the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, where Pope Francis has decided he wants to be buried. Now, no pope in the last few hundred years has been buried here at this ancient Roman basilica. But Pope Francis had a very strong devotion to this place. He would come to the basilica before and after every foreign trip, to pray in front of an ancient icon of the Virgin Mary, the Salus Populi Romani, which is linked to the protection and the health of the roman people.

Pope Francis, in his last testament, said he always felt under the protection of Mary. Before each meeting I was told by a Vatican official would go in front of a statue to pray of the Virgin Mary before he would meet heads of state or bishops. So, his decision to come here is very significant. It shows his devotion to Mary and also his desire for a simple burial.

He said that he wants his tomb to simply be engraved with Franciscus, no adornments. Again, Francis in death, showing he continues to reform the papacy through his emphasis on simplicity and humility.

Christopher Lamb, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: Christopher Lamb there, outside Santa Maggiore.

Well, we're seeing a heartfelt tribute to Pope Francis from his beloved football team that is San Lorenzo in Argentina. Pope Francis was a lifelong supporter of the top flight Argentine club, whose fans are nicknamed Los Cuervos, meaning the crows. The team posted this message, translating as: he was never just one of us, but always one of us. Cuervo as a child and as a man, Cuervo as a priest and cardinal Cuervo as pope, too. Incredibly moving.

Wonderful to see again, yet again, Max, how this man was very much one of the people. And that's something that so many people have been speaking to, just loved and admired about him.

FOSTER: Yeah, that simplicity, as you called it earlier, and humbleness, wasn't it? It's really come through. Weve learned so much more about him, but you've got the exciting bit now, haven't you, Isa? This is when the hard politics begins. All the cardinals come in.

Let's not pretend it's anything other than that.

SOARES: Oh, you've been watching the conclave, haven't you? Seems everyone has been watching --

FOSTER: It is a group of men who. ultimately decide this.

SOARES: -- and has some understanding of the machinations.

Yes. And look, it's really -- it's really interesting because now it comes the politicking. And as we've heard, you know, of the 135 cardinals under the age of 80 who are important, say, eligible to vote, 108 were appointed by Pope Francis. And though he did stack up the college of cardinals, as we have seen in previous years, and the case of Pope Francis as well, Max, it doesn't necessarily mean that any of those cardinals that he appointed are actually going to go -- are going to be pope.

Important that he included more than 20 cardinals from countries that, you know, didn't even have a cardinal before, so very much an open field. So, I think the question right now is what is the direction, what is the mood within the Vatican as to the direction that the Vatican wants to go? The church wants to go. And I think that is something that we -- we don't know.

What I've heard throughout from many of the guests I've been speaking to, is that they thought that Francis -- well, he was very much a man of the people.

[15:55:04]

He was a bit of a lightning rod. I think the sense I've got is they want to try and bring rein, whoever that is in, but stick very much with the message and the simplicity and the humility that he brought to very much the papacy. And that is going out to his flock, extending Catholicism in for the east of -- eastern -- to Asia, which we've seen it growing significantly.

So interesting to see if that that is the direction that this -- that the next pope will want to go, Max.

FOSTER: Yeah. And also, a big event on Saturday, all those world leaders flying in, rubbing shoulders for the funeral as well. So, lots for Isa to cover. We'll be back with you of course, throughout the hours and days ahead.

SOARES: Thanks, Max.

FOSTER: Thank you all for joining us on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Max Foster.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" with Richard, up next.