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Pope Francis Lying in State at St. Peter's Basilica. Aired 4:30-5a ET

Aired April 23, 2025 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome back to our continuing coverage. We're joined by CNN Vatican analyst Elise Allen and Father Patrick Mary Briscoe. He's the the editor of "Our Sunday Visitor," which is a Catholic magazine. Thank you both for being with us.

Let's start with you. I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

We've just witnessed this incredible, incredibly moving, historic -- I mean nobody's ever seen a procession like this from Santa Marta to the Basilica. I feel so honored to have witnessed it.

ELISE ALLEN, CNN'S VATICAN ANALYST: You know, I think this is very much in line with Francis. He's a Pope of firsts in many ways. He did things his own way from the very beginning to the very end, you know, and I think there's a certain, you know, poeticness, you know, to the way that his papacy began and choosing to live in a Santa Marta as opposed to the Vatican's Apostolic Palace, a much simpler, you know, residence amongst the people.

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And then to have his final passage, you know, in his coffin from that place into the Basilica, you know, where we're going to celebrate him and, you know, and commemorate him in just a couple of days.

So I think that's very special, you know, and he did things, he made his own mark, you know, throughout these 12 years. He's the first Pope from Latin America, the first Pope to, indeed, not from Europe, right?

ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR: He was a Jesuit.

ALLEN: He was the first Jesuits. So he took the papacy into a whole other realm, you know, and we saw that in many ways in a lot of the things that he did, but mostly through how he lived his life and how he's chosen to also live his passage into the next life, you know.

COOPER: And live it in such a public, and we talked about this in the last hour, but to live his death in such a public way, and Father Patrick Briscoe is also joining us. Father, I appreciate you joining us once again. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the decision by the Pope to do that, to allow himself to be seen in a wheelchair, to allow himself to, you know, on Easter Sunday, the day before he died, to make an appearance, to go down into the crowd, to bring people along, and not hide his failing body, but to continue to show himself and push forward.

FATHER PATRICK MARY BRISCOE, EDITOR, OUR SUNDAY VISITOR: Thank you so much. It's great to be back with you. I, myself, have just arrived here in Rome. St. Peter's Basilica is just behind me here.

I was so moved by the gestures that people have offered to me personally, now that we've lost our dear Pope. As I was on the New York subway yesterday, and throughout the airport on my way here, people kept offering their expressions of sympathy, which I think reveals the closeness that so many people had to Pope Francis, not just Catholics.

I mean, the air hostess, the attendant, as I was getting my passport stamped, you know, were offering sympathies. And I think it's exactly, you know, it's exactly that vulnerability, Anderson, that you're suggesting, that Pope Francis revealed, not just as he was, in his last days, facing his illness, but throughout his papacy. There was a kind of transparency that resonated with people, such that anyone could identify with Pope Francis.

And again, many, many, many times through his pontificate, Pope Francis suggested that one of the things our culture has lost is an appreciation for the elderly, an appreciation for the vulnerable.

And what I find so heroic is the way that Pope Francis carried himself in these last days, you know, apparently against doctor's orders, making these public appearances, insisting on continuing to be with the people. It's certainly remarkable and lends that lasting impression, gives us all that lasting impression that has now generated this great feeling of compassion and sympathy that people want to express to Catholics throughout the world.

SOARES: And also, Father, a feeling of immense gratitude, which is something I've been hearing with so many here, Catholics and non- Catholics as well. And I was incredibly moved, and I think I speak for Anderson, too, as we were showing our viewers the transfer of his coffin, this casket, from Santa Marta to the Basilica, of those who knew him, those he worked with being carried, they were carrying him in their shoulders. And this idea of what we had throughout, todos, todos, todos, everyone, this is very much Pope Francis presenting himself in death, as in life, for everyone.

BRISCOE: Absolutely. The day a man is elected Pope, he ceases to belong to himself. And he really belongs, again, not just to Catholics, but to the world as a singular moral voice, as a religious leader.

And Pope Francis certainly had a great sense of that as he as he fulfilled this great service in the Petrine ministry.

COOPER: Father Briscoe, can you speak to what the Pope said? I bring this up again, because I'm a little bit obsessed with what he wrote in February about death and his thoughts about what -- the journey he was going on. He said that these are the words he wrote.

He said, Death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something, a new beginning, because we will experience something that we have never fully experienced, eternity.

That idea that he is facing the end of his life, and yet sees new life, and a new beginning. And something extraordinary is very powerful to me.

BRISCOE: Anderson, even as you were saying those words, again, I got chills, you know, it's just remarkable how all these things have overlapped. When Pope Francis opened the Jubilee year with the which the church is celebrating now, he spoke to us all of hope, which for Catholics and Christians throughout the world, hope means eternal life, hope means something beyond just what we're experiencing in the here and now.

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And I think that's, that's at the heart of why Pope Francis was so great, was this living for more, living to eternity, you might say, living for the infinite, even.

That's at the heart of why Pope Francis was so great, was this living for more, living to eternity, you might say, living, living for the infinite, even.

And so for, for Pope Francis to have passed away in this Jubilee year of hope, after having written to us about having hope in the faith, and even his, his last words in his extraordinary blessing, the Urbi et Orbi on Easter Sunday, where he was calling for us to have hope in the face of death, to have confidence in the Lord who makes all things new.

It was remarkable, I mean, it wasn't just mere foreshadowing, it was, it was prophetic, almost, even of his death, and of that great confidence that he, Pope Francis, has in Christ Jesus, and in eternal life, and life to come.

SOARES: Stay with us, Father Briscoe, let me just bring in Elise Allen here, because in 20 minutes or so, the doors will open for anyone to really Catholics, Christians, or from any walk of life, to really pay their respects. Just in 20 minutes, we're about to see that. We've seen St. Peter's Square filling, filling up in the last few moments, and what we have seen as we saw the casket move again, as we saw that procession, was a tremendous applause for the Pope, a Pope very much of the people.

Give us a sense of what this would have meant, you think, to him, a man, of course, he always went out to his flock.

ALLEN: I think for Pope Francis, this would be his most preferred moment, when the people come to him. You know, remember when he first was elected, you know, when he stepped out onto the central lodge of St. Peter's Basilica, he -- before giving his blessing to the people, asked for their blessing. And this is, in a sense, bringing that full circle, asking for the people's final blessing for him, before he steps into, you know, his funeral and the entombment, his final stage into eternal life, you know. So I think this is bringing it full circle for him. I think this would be the moment he's looking forward to the most, being with people, seeing the people come to him, the people who he's dedicated his life to. He served these people throughout his life as a priest, as a bishop, and as Pope.

And he wanted that contact with them. You know, we always talked about the importance of closeness. And this is, you know, people's opportunity, believers from around the world of any faith.

And he was very ecumenical. He reached out very much to other Christians and other faiths. So this would be his, I think, the aspect of this whole process that's most special to him.

COOPER: It's also so powerful to me that he wanted to die and be buried as he lived, humbly. That he changed, you know, parts of the the service that we saw today. He changed the way -- you know, he specified the way he wanted to be buried in the earth. A simple casket, no adornments, just his name, Franciscus.

ALLEN: Yes, he was the Pope of simplicity, you know, and that's what he was. He tried to live that in every aspect. He lived that way in Buenos Aires, and he tried to bring that into the papacy in the way that he lived as Pope.

Because that's something he wanted for the church itself, to be more simple, to be more in contact with reality, with the lives of people around us, not in such an insular world. You know, he talked about the Vatican sometimes, especially when he first was elected, being such an insulated place that looks in on itself too much. And he wanted to break that open, you know, and by making things simpler, more accessible to the people.

SOARES: Sorry, I was going to ask Father Briscoe, really on a personal level, Father, how would you remember, how would you define him? What, you know, what made him so special?

BRISCOE: You know, I love this word gratitude that that you used earlier, because that's really what I'm feeling. I mean, to be Pope is at once an extraordinary and terrible thing, to have to have all of these demands of this great office. And so my heart right now, honestly, is just full of thankfulness for any man who carries it and who offers his life, who lays it down, really in service to the Church in this regard. It's such an amazing thing.

You know, in Italian, of course, you call the Pope, Papa, and it creates this familiarity, kind of familial sense. You know, when I was asked, am I here for the funeral? I was asked, are you here for Papa's funeral, for the Pope's funeral?

And I think that's what many people are feeling as we begin to see these signs of Pope Francis' funeral, as we begin to see these ceremonies unfold. It's not just the trappings of a state funeral. There's a personal liturgy going on here. It's Catholics who are mourning, who are thankful, who are filled with gratitude, whose hearts really, really, really have been touched by Pope Francis. [04:45:00]

Because even though, you know, as Elise was saying, even though the Pope lives at great distance, in certain ways from the people, Pope Francis had this remarkable ability to transcend that, and to touch people very directly and impact them in a very immediate way.

So I think as people are going down -- I myself can't wait to go down to pray before the Pope to show my personal respect, and my thankfulness for his office. So again, I would say just right now, I'm thinking of how grateful I am for his ministry.

COOPER: Father Briscoe, just before we go, I just do want to ask you, so many people who are watching today probably are grieving in their own lives or have had recent losses. And I'm wondering what you say to people in their grief. Grieving not just for the Pope, but people in their own lives, and are watching this, and maybe they feel alone in their grief. What do you say to people?

BRISCOE: Pope Francis has been called the Pope of surprises. He's been the Pope of many firsts. And he is that, because in part, it's his personality to be a bit of a maverick, to be a bit spontaneous, to kind of throw people off, and to kind of quietly test them.

But ultimately, I think it was deeper than that, Anderson. I think it was because Pope Francis believed that God is a God of surprises, and that whatever sorrows we face, the trials we face in our life, all of our grief, God will take all of that and do something extraordinary. That God is a God of surprises.

And in the face of whatever sorrow and grief we face in our lives, that we can cling to that. And that's the source of our great hope. And this is what we were talking about, as we were saying, that it's the jubilee year of hope. And Pope Francis has a kind of confidence that there's something more.

And this is what I really loved about his papacy, you know, that he was able to convey that in such a striking and meaningful way.

COOPER: Father Patrick Briscoe, Elise Allen, thank you very much.

SOARES: Thank you, Father. Thank you, Elise. Appreciate it.

COOPER: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

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COOPER: And welcome back. Joining us again is Vatican analyst Elise Allen, also Father Patrick Mary Brisco.

SOARES: And Elise, you know, we are starting to see the crowds. If I look at those images, and Father, you probably wouldn't be able to see, but can you imagine, no doubt, the large crowds now in St. Peter's Square? Because we've got about, what, less than ten minutes before people will be able to walk in and pay their respects to Pope Francis.

And I found it incredibly moving, you know, not just the initial silence as we saw the procession, of course, of his casket, of his coffin, from his residence, but also, you know, making their way, passing so many of the mourners all the way up the steps into St. Peter's Basilica, where he'll lie in state until Saturday.

But also the fact that so many, and I spoke to quite a few yesterday, I spoke to one couple from the United States, who were embracing in that moment. And she was actually weeping at the loss of this Pope, which she felt really resonated, really opened doors to so many outside of the Catholic faith.

And I think that is so important, whether you believe in Catholicism or you don't, that he was able to push that door slightly ajar when it comes to our beliefs.

ALLEN: I think that's what Pope Francis is a genius about. You know, he was far more focused on not so much the rules, but the application of the rules to people's individual personal situations. And because of that, people felt that he was very close to them, and them personally. They felt that he was interested in them and their situation, that he saw them.

COOPER: Even if doctrines weren't necessarily changing, he was sort of reaching out a hand.

ALLEN: Exactly. And Francis, that's what he wanted the church to be. He thought that that's what the church is here for, is to reach out to the people. It's not to expect them to come to us.

SOARES: You know, Francis of Assisi.

ALLEN: Exactly, exactly. We have to go to the people. We have to be where they are. We have to meet them in their circumstances and help them come along the way. You know, he was very understanding that, you know, most people out there are not going to be able to live the ideal, you know. It's there because, you know, that's what, in the ideal world, this is what life is supposed to be.

But people are not necessarily always going to live up to, you know, that 100 percent of the time. People make mistakes. For him, commuting for divorce and remarriage was a big controversial decision that he made. He allowed that on a case-by-case basis. But he had the understanding that people are going to make mistakes, and, you know, what we want is to draw them back.

We don't want to just say, the doors are closed, you haven't lived up to this. We want to find a way for you to be as close as possible and help you get back on the right path again. And that's what I think the heart of his papacy was about, and that's why so many people felt so moved by him.

They felt so close to him. They felt like he's giving us hope. He was so very much, you know, set on reaching out to the marginalized, those who felt excluded. So I think the very fact that people felt, maybe I can be included again, was hugely significant.

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COOPER: Father Briscoe, for you, is this -- obviously there is sadness at the death of this human being, but in so many of the faithful who I've been talking to over the last day, there was also joy because of the belief in what now happens to Pope Francis.

Can you talk about that a little bit of what you are feeling?

BRISCOE: Absolutely. Part of what we're experiencing is this conflict. You know, and I've been saying these last few days, it's almost difficult to talk about because at one and the same moment, we're deeply sorrowful, but we're also deeply joyful.

Pope Francis' death occurred on Easter Monday, which is a great continuation of the Easter feast. Of course, for Christians, for Catholics, Easter is the day we celebrate Jesus Christ coming back from the dead, which is a striking belief that we believe that He who was once dead now lives, and that that gift of eternal life is offered to everyone who believes and confesses in His name. And Pope Francis dedicated his life to preaching that truth, to offering this teaching in Argentina and then as Pope to the rest of the world.

So we have a kind of conflict, and I think this is true of everyone who suffers some kind of grief. I had a friend call me up recently, Anderson, because her grandmother had died, and she was devastated because the rest of her family was very joyful, expressing boldly this confidence in eternal life, but she wanted to know if it was all right that she could feel sorrowful that her grandmother had died, even though she believes in heaven. And I said, of course, and part of what we experience is always the sorrow of death and that admixture of joy.

So it's not one or the other. It's not a kind of rejoicing strictly because we sorrow that we have our loss, but also in the face of that sorrow, there's a confidence that there's something more.

COOPER: Father Patrick Briscoe, thank you so much. Elise Allen as well.

We'll be back with more. Stay tuned.

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