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CNN International: FBI Arrests Wisconsin Judge, Accuses Her Of Obstructing ICE; U.S. Envoy Meets Putin Amid New Russian Strikes On Ukraine; Trump Won't Say If He's Spoken To Xi Since Tariffs Started; Vatican Making Final Preparations For Pope's Funeral; Insiders Alarm Over Pentagon Chaos. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 25, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:21]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm Omar Jimenez and this is CNN NEWSROOM.

We're going to start with the Trump administration's crackdown on immigration and its clashes with the judiciary. The FBI says they've arrested a Wisconsin judge. She's accused of trying to help an undocumented migrant avoid arrest by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Now, FBI Director Kash Patel took to social media accusing Judge Hannah Dugan of intentionally misdirecting federal agents away from a person that was to be arrested in her courthouse. Now she's facing two charges for obstruction and concealing the individual from ICE. She has made an initial court appearance and was released. The "AP" quotes her attorney saying the judge wholeheartedly regrets and protests her arrests, and that it was not made in the interest of public safety.

I want to bring in Whitney Wild who's live in Milwaukee for us.

So, Whitney, what more do we know about the case? What more do we know about what's next?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Unsealed court documents give more detail about what led up to this Omar. And really, the centers on another case that happened April 18th.

On April 18th, a man named Eduardo Flores-Ruiz was supposed to appear in front of Judge Hannah Dugan on battery charges. A domestic abuse case. Law enforcement. Federal law enforcement learned of his appearance. They appeared at the courthouse. They intended to arrest him because they say he is an undocumented immigrant who had previously been deported. They said that they had an administrative warrant for his removal, so they intended to take him into arrest in the public area of the courthouse after the court hearing.

And when Judge Hannah Dugan learned that law enforcement was there to arrest him, they say she became very upset. She actually had a call with the chief judge of her court and spoke with the federal agents who were there, and they agreed that law enforcement would only arrest him in the public areas of the court. When Judge Dugan returned to the courtroom to have this proceeding with Flores-Ruiz, multiple witnesses, according to the FBI, heard her direct him and his attorney to use the jury door, which would have put them into a private area of the courthouse. And it's at that moment that law enforcement says that the -- that Flores-Ruiz and his attorney briskly walked to the elevators. They were scrambling to try to bring him into custody.

He ran at one point. Eventually they did bring him into custody. But what the FBI director today, Kash Patel, said, was that her actions made this much more dangerous for the law enforcement who was trying to make what they say is this lawful arrest.

Here's Mayor Cavalier Johnson. He's the mayor of Milwaukee on today's developments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR CAVALIER JOHNSON, MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN: We'll continue to monitor the situation and raise our voice to what is happening, what's going on here, and sending a clear signal to President Trump and his administration that their actions are causing public safety to be harmed in Milwaukee. If his administration, you know, wants to talk about public safety, that's great. Let's have that conversation.

But these actions right now run completely counterclockwise to what he's trying to do, what he thinks he's trying to do, which is make us safer. America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILD: As you noted, Omar, she was in court today. She has since been released. And her attorney vehemently denies this and says that this was absolutely not in the best interest of public safety -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: And you know, when you're there in Milwaukee, do you have a sense that that people there are shocked at what happened? And do we know what happens to her cases that maybe she was set to preside over?

WILD: According to the chief judge of her court, another judge will take over those cases as needed. What is not clear is if she will, you know, resume her duties on the bench and then only, you know, pass her cases off to another judge when she is due to appear in court. Those finer details are questions we certainly have, and we're working to find out more about that.

She had a busy docket today. It is not clear how those cases unfolded today, as she was supposed to be in court, or if they were initially, you know, very quickly passed off to another judge. We just don't know at that point -- at this point.

There is quite a bit of outcry from the elected officials here. I mean, you heard Mayor Cavalier Johnson, Senator Tammy Baldwin spoke out against this today. So multiple people here expressing their real shock, there's expected to be a protest here in about an hour or so. Certainly, we may learn more from the people who appear at court, Omar. But I -- this is an escalation, but it is not altogether surprising

given what the Trump administration has said from the outset that they believe anybody local, state elected officials included, who stand in their way to what they say are enforcing these immigration laws. They are not tolerating even the slightest -- slightest pushback there, and they say they're going to bring the full force of law against anybody who stands in their way to, as I said, conduct these lawful immigration actions.

JIMENEZ: And this becomes maybe one of the sharpest standoffs we've seen to this point. Whitney Wild, really appreciate the reporting.

All right. I want to go to Moscow now, where U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff met earlier with Russian President Vladimir Putin and a push for a Ukraine peace deal.

Now, according to a Putin aide, the three-hour meeting included discussion about possibly resuming direct negotiations between Ukraine and Russia. Other senior U.S. officials reportedly weren't in the room.

Now, U.S. President Donald Trump has been pressing for a swift end to the conflict, as sources say he's frustrated that brokering a deal has taken much longer than he'd expected.

Our Fred Pleitgen joins me now from Moscow.

So, do we have a sense of what these ongoing negotiations or the prospects, I should say, of these negotiations actually are?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Russians are saying, Omar, that these were talks that were productive and in a good atmosphere, but it certainly doesn't appear as though there were any major breakthroughs that happens in these talks. One of the interesting things is what you already alluded to is that there were no other senior U.S. officials in the room there. And if we go back to the footage and we see Steve Witkoff entering that room, being greeted very warmly, by the way, by Vladimir Putin, who even spoke in English as he greeted Steve Witkoff.

They then sat down and Putin was lined by two of his top special negotiators. One of them, Yuri Ushakov, who's a longtime senior kremlin aide, and then also by Kirill Dmitriev, who's the head of the Russian direct investment fund. But Steve Witkoff did not have any other senior U.S. officials with him.

Now, the Russians are saying in these talks that lasted about three hours that there were several topics that were discussed that the Russians are not only and the U.S. are not only discussing, discussing making U.S. Russia relations better, but also a flurry of international topics, as they put it.

And then as far as Ukraine is concerned, the Russians are saying that all of this opens the prospects for possible direct negotiations between the Russians and the Ukrainians in the future. But again, it seems, though, at this point in time, they're not at that point just yet, and more discussions are probably going to have to be necessary.

This, of course, goes back to President Trump then saying that he's quite frustrated at the pace at which things are moving forward. He once again said that he believes things are on a good way. But, of course, right now it still seems as though were still pretty far away from a full on ceasefire that the Trump administration wants.

The Russians are saying they believe that things are moving in the right direction. They say there are still some important issues that need to be sorted out. And certainly, the Russians are saying that right now, they're not going to be pressured into signing any sort of agreement that they feel goes against their core national interests.

And there's really two things that the Russians have been talking about. They really haven't leaked anything in the way of any specific issues. But there's two main topic areas that they keep talking about. One of them is, of course, the territories that they've taken inside Ukraine. They want to keep all or almost all of those territories as part of any ceasefire agreement.

And then, of course, the Russians speak about what they call their red line as far as Ukraine never becoming a member of NATO. The president of the United States is, of course, also said that he believes that that is something that is going to happen. But certainly, the Ukrainians not very much on board with that at all.

So, it seems as though negotiations are going forward. But whether or not major progress has been achieved is really something that's up in the air, Omar.

JIMENEZ: And of course, from a U.S. perspective, many looking to see what concessions on the United States side are made in pursuit of this peace.

Fred Pleitgen in Moscow, really appreciate it.

Now, on another front, it's unclear whether Donald Trump has spoken to his Chinese counterpart since tariffs were implemented on Beijing. Trump told "Time Magazine", though, that Xi Jinping has called him, but he didn't offer any specifics. Meanwhile, Chinese officials say trade negotiations are not officially happening.

Now, when CNN asked Trump to clarify if he spoke with Xi, he dodged the question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: You said, you spoke with President Xi. Have you spoken to him since the tariffs? When did you last speak --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't want to -- I don't want to comment on that. But I've spoken to him many times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: I want to bring in chief U.S. national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny.

Jeff, clearly, a sensitive dance going on right now in regards to tariffs, specifically with China. What do we know, at least from the White House perspective, is actually happening right now in regards to talks with China?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Omar, as we end another week here at the White House, that is one of the central questions. Why does the U.S. President Donald Trump keep saying that he has spoken to President Xi, where there is no evidence that they have spoken? It's been one of the really back and forth day in and day out questions.

The Chinese foreign ministry says every day there have been no ongoing conversations.

[15:10:01]

The White House says there are conversations. But the bottom line is there have been no deals. There have been no negotiations to walk back. The trade war, that's the underlying point of all of this.

As the president is flying to Rome for the pope's funeral, he actually did talk to reporters in the area just a short time ago and getting a readout of what he said. He said that that China will have to make substantial changes in their tariffs as well for the U.S. to lower their 145 percent tariff.

So going into what will now be almost the second 100 days of the Trump presidency, this trade war is front and center. And the question of who will blink has been answered. In some respects, it has been the United States because Donald Trump, the Trump administration, has repeatedly sort of changed its percentages for several countries, has turned them on, turned them off. And China has actually stood fairly fast.

But that does not mean that China does not want to have a negotiation, obviously. And open trade, a trade basically has been blocked between the two superpowers because of this trade war. So, it is unclear when there will be negotiations, but it is clear that these two presidents have not spoken, despite what the White House may say -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: And a dynamic obviously, to continue watching.

Jeff Zeleny, really appreciate it.

ZELENY: Sure.

JIMENEZ: St. Peter's Basilica is now closed to the public. You're looking at live images right now. And the casket of Pope Francis will be sealed any moment now is what we're expecting now.

The Vatican is making final preparations to welcome world leaders, monarchs and just worshipers for the pope's funeral on Saturday. It says 250,000 mourners filed past his casket over the last three days to pay their final respects. Now, much of his funeral will be held outside in St. Peter's Square.

Then, a procession will take the pope's body through the heart of Rome to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. He will be laid to rest there in a simple, unadorned tomb, reflecting his final wishes.

I want to bring in CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb, who -- you've been there obviously, throughout all of this. You've seen every inch of the procession and the procedure that we've gotten to this point.

What is the mood there right now and what can we expect in the hours to come?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've just had the rite of the closing of Pope Francis's coffin in St. Peter's Basilica behind me. Now, that marks the end of the lying in state that has been going on over the last three days, with people queuing up to see Pope Francis and pay their respects. And tomorrow, we're expecting tens of thousands to be in St. Peter's Square to pay their last respects, to say farewell to Pope Francis.

Heads of state from all over the world will be gathering, and alongside of them, leaders of different faiths. Now, Pope Francis devoted a huge amount of his time into building bridges with the Muslim world and, of course, all faiths, but particularly the Muslim world. He was the first pope to go to the Arabian Peninsula. He was the first pope to visit Iraq, and he signed a landmark document on interfaith collaboration in the United Arab Emirates with the grand imam of Al-Azhar, Dr. Ahmed El-Tayyeb, and he had a gift Pope Francis, of being able to build relationships with different religious leaders.

Now, I caught up with one of them, an imam who knows -- or who knew Pope Francis from Buenos Aires and met him many times as pope. And he shared with me what Pope Francis was like with him and what he meant to him in many ways. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IMAM BEYTULLAH COLAK, DIRECTOR OF INSTITUTIONAL OUTREACH, RESPECT GRADUATE SCHOOL: I met first when he became pope in 2015. In 9/11 memorial museum, it was a huge interfaith gathering, and first time I ever over there when he finished the event after event normally, it was not opportunity to meet him. You cannot leave even one feet. So, he came to my corridor. I said, His Holiness. Turco, he said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAMB: Well, the imam there explaining that the pope had a nickname for him, Turco, and he recognized him that time in 2015, when Francis visited the United States. Now, I think the reason why the world leaders sorry, the leaders of different faiths are here in Rome for the -- for the pope's funeral is because they appreciated Francis's humanity.

[15:15:06] They appreciated what he was trying to do to build bridges with other faiths and say that faith can build a better world, that religion should not be used for violence or intolerance, but should be used to build peace. And I think those leaders from different faiths are here. We're putting dozens of them because Francis was a religious statesman, and they want to say farewell to Pope Francis at this funeral tomorrow in St. Peter's.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, as I mentioned, you've been there throughout all of this, no doubt coming in contact with so many who have traveled far and wide, not just interfaith leaders or world leaders, but truly just everyday people who want to come and pay their respects and likely have memories in different contexts of this pope. What have you heard from -- from some of these folks as maybe the most motivating factor for them coming and how they've sort of interpreted what they've been able to see.

LAMB: Well, I think we've seen a range of people over the days coming to see pope -- the pope. Obviously, there are Catholics who are very keen to pay their last respects. There were some nuns I met from Sicily who traveled overnight to Rome to see him.

But there are also those of no faith, those who respected Pope Francis, who wanted to see him in his final moments in the -- in the coffin. But I think also what we're seeing is a sense of that this pope was someone who connected with people that he was our pope. Some people have said to me that he had that connection.

So, it's not so much about the numbers here. It's about the kind of strength of emotion that people had for Francis, that connection they had. He was very much the people's pope. And you sense that in the crowds, the intensity of the love that they had for Francis, who was a very human pope and I knew him by covering the Vatican for many years. And I got to know the pope a little bit.

And he was someone with a fantastic sense of humor. He was very much at ease with himself. He was very human as a pope, he wasn't up on a pedestal.

You know, I met him on the back of the papal plane a number of times. You know, at one point, I told him a joke, which was a little bit close to the line. He said to me, you're naughty, and roared with laughter.

So, he had that humanity. He had that sense of great sense of humor. And I think that's what people feel about the pope, that they felt they knew him. And that's why they are turning out to see him.

JIMENEZ: Christopher Lamb, called naughty by the pope at one point, still here to tell the tale. Really appreciate the reporting, Christopher. Thank you.

All right. He's only been in the job for a few months. But really, chaos surrounding U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has Pentagon insiders raising the alarm. We're going to have details after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:01]

JIMENEZ: A month of total chaos. That is how one recently fired Pentagon spokesperson describes what is happening at the U.S. Department of Defense right now. This, as former insiders raised the alarm about the leadership of U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.

Now, the former Army officer and Fox News host, short tenure so far has been, let's just call it turbulent. He's been accused twice of using a signal group chat to share detailed military plans. He's fired three of his closest advisors, and his chief of staff is moving into a new role as well. He's also facing scrutiny over including his wife in high level discussions, despite her not being a department employee.

So where does this leave one of the United States most vital institutions?

I'm joined by Chris Meagher, who's the chief Pentagon spokesperson in the Biden administration.

Thank you for being here.

I wonder just how you assess the state of the Defense Department right now.

CHRIS MEAGHER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: Yeah, well, I'd have to concur with the spokesperson who was just let go describing it as a in a state of chaos. You know, the unfortunate thing is this is something that we could have predicted and many people did predict back when Pete Hegseth was nominated before the administration began. He doesn't have the experience. He doesn't have the background to run an operation like the Department of Defense.

And we're seeing the fruits of that. Come out now. You know, he was in charge of two nonprofits, pretty small nonprofits and tanked those as CEO. We're talking about an organization of 3 million people with a budget close to $1 trillion that deals in matters of life and death every single day. This guy, Pete Hegseth, as secretary of defense, is in charge of making decisions that will put troops lives in harm's way.

And so far, you mentioned signal gate, he has shown that he's not able to safely handle that information. Putting classified information in unclassified spaces before operations begin, which endangers the lives of our troops.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, given -- given just this moment, let's just sort of play out sort of the vulnerabilities here, because, look, we're talking about chief of staff. We're talking about, you know, senior aides and advisers. But -- but what are the implications, I guess, of, you know, if you're looking at three vacancies of advisers or people that work closely with the defense secretary right now just where do you begin to assess vulnerabilities, I guess? Let's just start there. MEAGHER: Sure. Well, first of all, it doesn't give the men and women

in uniform, our troops who are looking to leaders to lead much confidence when the secretary's front office is in chaos and dysfunction. I mean, they're actively on the record stabbing each other in the back now that they've been fired. It puts the secretary's ability to make decisions at question.

He -- these are people that he brought in to help lead the department. The chief of staff in the secretary of defense's office is one of the most powerful positions in government. They're the ones tasked with making personnel decisions, helping make operational decisions, taking the decisions of the secretary and putting them into action.

So not having a person in this position or having a person in this position who's unable to adequately do the job has puts our troops at risk, leaves a lot of question marks in terms of guidance for the force, and just leads to dysfunction all around. And that's what you're seeing play out right now.

[15:25:03]

JIMENEZ: And, you know, CNN is reporting Hegseth -- Hegseth adviser helped install Signal on one of the secretary's computers in his office at the Pentagon, as multiple sources have told CNN.

But can you just talk about the working relationship Signal may typically have among DOD employees because it is used? And but -- but -- do you see having it installed on a computer as unusual?

MEAGHER: One hundred percent. And my understanding is that there was a separate, quote/unquote, dirty, unclassified line installed into his office, which is completely baffling to me and something that is completely unheard of. The secretary's office, as many offices are at the Pentagon, is a classified space. You can't bring your cell phone in. You can't bring computer in.

And so, the fact that they installed a dirty line which is usually reserved in the Pentagon for special cases where people who are doing intel work might need to access websites that might not otherwise be accessible in Pentagon systems. That's what they use it for. But he just wants it to be able to text his friends and his family and his attorney and other folks. It's just completely baffling.

We used Signal in very, very limited circumstances to do mundane planning. I might be -- it might be a Saturday, and I'm out at the playground with my child. And, you know, I get a signal message that the secretary's standing up a meeting to discuss the latest in Israel. So be back at your desk by 3:00 p.m. Those are the types of signal messages that are appropriate.

Not discussing classified sensitive information before the operation has taken place. Putting that information out into an unclassified space where we know our adversaries are targeting, such as the secretary's phone or the secretary's office writ large puts our troops at risk before they even take off.

JIMENEZ: Chris Meagher, really appreciate -- appreciate the time, perspective. Thanks for being here.

MEAGHER: All right. Thank you.

JIMENEZ: All right. Meanwhile, Canadians vote in federal elections on Monday, and many voters feel it could be a turning point in relations with the United States. President Trump's threats to punish Canada with tariffs or even turn it into the 51st U.S. state has sparked a wave of patriotism.

John King reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Rock Maple Lodge spans 200 acres, more than 2,000 maple trees, 11 miles of lines to carry the syrup back to be boiled, filtered, and bottled.

PETER HAMILTON, CANADIAN VOTER: There we go.

KING: This is Peter Hamilton's business and his escape.

HAMILTON: Every year we've got to drill another hole.

KING: He also farms wheat, soybeans and corn, sells some timber.

HAMILTON: So to be here 54 years and absolute just thrilled that we're able to do this. KING: Sounds like you're working harder now though.

HAMILTON: I would like to go back one more time to play some hockey.

KING: A proud Canadian now more than ever. Yes, a lifelong Conservative but "Canada first" is Hamilton's motto as voters here pick a new parliament and a new prime minister.

HAMILTON: The bottom line is the Liberals and the Conservatives got to work together here. They can't be nit-picking and arguing amongst each other. We have to work together to make this country go ahead.

KING: Work together he says because suddenly the United States feels so far away. Rock Maple Lodge is in Ontario just 65 miles from Toronto. It's just 100 miles to the border and Buffalo, but it doesn't feel that close with Donald Trump in the White House.

HAMILTON: There is no friends, no more. The biggest thing in Canada is we have friends all over the world. How many friends does Americans have right now?

KING: The Trump effect on Canada's election cannot be overstated. You see more Canadian flags now. More of these signs too.

Federal elections here are often defined by East versus West. Urban versus rural. English versus French. Liberal versus Conservative. But Trump versus Canada defines this one.

Just weeks ago, some of the flowers here at Lola Blooms came from the United States. Not anymore. Sisters-in-law Lindsay Smith and Kaitlynn Strain are buying elsewhere now. Their answer to Trump's threats of tariffs or making Canada the 51st state.

LINDSAY SMITH, CANADIAN VOTER: It's more Donald Trump. I feel like he's a bully in this situation. We're supposed to be allies. We thought we're on like a friendship level.

KING: Some of the vases and other hardware still come from the states. But Smith and Strain are looking for alternatives.

KING: And when you hear him call your prime minister "governor" or say that, you know, this would make a great 51st state, what's that make you think?

[15:30:03]

KAITLYNN STRAIN, CANADIAN VOTER: Very insulting.

SMITH: We need a strong leader who won't stand up for bullying.

KING: They both traditionally support the Green Party but both are leaning Liberal this time.

KING: If the Liberals are going to win or the Conservatives are going to win, you want them to win by what? A healthy enough margin --

STRAIN: Exactly.

KING: -- so that they're viewed as a strong leader?

SMITH: Yes.

STRAIN: Yes, very much.

SMITH: You put your vote where it counts a little more in this situation.

KING: And is that just because of Donald Trump?

SMITH: Yes.

STRAIN: Yes. Unfortunately.

SMITH: Yes.

KING: Canadians see this as much bigger than who gets the most seats in parliament and gets to pick a prime minister. It's about spending more in the military.

Buying local. Finding new markets and new partners. Dropping any thought the ruts with Trump can just be smoothed over.

TOBY GORMAN, CANADIAN VOTER: I put up a flag myself. I never thought I would put up a Canadian flag. But I think when it comes down to crunch time, Canadians really gather up.

KING: Toby Gorman is an environmental journalist and author and a pickup hockey player in the Canadian Beer League. Passionate about the climate crisis but likely to pass on his top choice this election in hopes he can help Liberals win a big enough mandate to counter Trump.

GORMAN: If it was any other election without the U.S. situation, without, you know, the crisis we had going on, I would probably go with green.

Just push it.

KING: Gorman says he is hardly alone here in rethinking everything.

GORMAN: We're just sick of him, you know? And it's only been three months into the term and, you know, he's getting to an excess, he wants to crush us economically. I think, at first, it was kind of like losing your best friend or it's like, you know, what just happened, like, what's happening. But now, I think, we're at the point where it's like, well, we can move on.

KING: That's a big shift.

This election defined by the belief Canada and the United States are suddenly more rivals than neighbors. Suddenly, no longer skating in the same direction.

John King, Courtice, Ontario.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: John King, always appreciated.

Still to come, accused killer Luigi Mangione enters a plea in a New York courtroom. We're going to be live with the latest on today's proceedings.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:32]

JIMENEZ: Welcome back, everyone.

Now for a quick recap of our top story. The FBI has arrested a Wisconsin judge accusing her of obstructing federal immigration agents trying to arrest an undocumented migrant. Now, Judge Hannah Dugan is facing two charges for obstruction and concealing the individual from Immigration and Customs Enforcement. She's made an initial court appearance and was released at this point.

Now, speaking to Fox News a few hours ago, the U.S. attorney general said Judge Dugan was, quote, deranged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: She put the lives of our law enforcement officers at risk. She put the lives of citizens at risk. A street chase, which is absurd, that that had to happen. But yes, she put a lot of people at danger. TV HOST: Have you dug into their motive? Like what inspired them to --

to carry out these acts and harbor criminals?

BONDI: They're deranged is all I can think of. I cannot believe -- I think some of these judges think they are beyond and above the law, and they are not. And we're sending a very strong message today. If you are harboring a fugitive, we don't care who you are. If you are helping hide one, if you are giving a TDA member guns, anyone who is illegally in this country, we will come after you and we will prosecute you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, Wisconsin's Democratic senator says this arrest undermines the system of checks and balances in the American legal system.

Tammy Baldwin said the president's administration arresting a sitting judge is a gravely serious and drastic move, and it threatens to breach those very separations of power.

I want to bring in Bernarda -- Bernarda Villalona for more analysis. She's a criminal defense attorney and former New York prosecutor.

Thank you for being here. I want to start with Wisconsin. And what is your immediate reaction to what we're seeing there? Do you have any concerns?

BERNARDA VILLALONA, FORMER NEW YORK PROSECUTOR: Oh, absolutely. It's shocking. It's chilling. It's aggressive. When you're talking about that you're going to arrest a judge, a sitting judge who was actually listening to cases and doing her job. What message does that send? Obviously, it's one that they want to send a message around the country and then take it a step further.

When you have the FBI director sending a tweet to notify the entire country of what they're willing to do if you interfere or have the slight hesitation when it comes, then executing the ICE policies that they will come after you. So I'm highly concerned when it comes to this. I mean, I have seen it before in the sense of people getting arrested inside of the courthouse for crimes that they committed, but not to this extent when you're talking about a judge.

JIMENEZ: And I guess on that question, you know, what is then the sort of proper process for, you know, as one witness described that, that the judge was telling, the defendant and -- and his attorney to leave through -- through a jury door. I mean, what is sort of the proper process if ICE were to want to make an arrest of someone who may be in a courtroom.

VILLALONA: So normally the process is, is that ICE or any other investigative agency will have to wait until after the case is called, after the judge has heard the case, and they will have to either wait right outside of the door, but not actually inside of the courtroom, because you want to keep the safety of those that are on the courtroom, and you don't want to disrupt the proceedings as it's taking place.

So, they have them wait outside and wait until the case is called, and then wait for that person to actually exit the courtroom. But here, you're talking about a judge as well as the defense attorney and others. Getting involved in this case was actually makes it a lot more different in terms of cases how it normally goes.

JIMENEZ: Mm-hmm. Bernardo, stick around because there's another legal case here on the East Coast. I want -- I want to get to but before that. It just -- we're going to update you all on the story. Accused killer Luigi Mangione has entered a not guilty plea in a federal courtroom in New York. The 26-year-old is accused of stalking and killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson on a Manhattan street.

Now, a federal grand jury indicted Mangione for the December 4th murder. The U.S. Justice Department says it will seek the death penalty. I want to bring in Kara Scannell now who's been at court for us.

Kara, can you just give us an update on what we learned today and the significance of this latest legal move, I guess, from Mangione's side?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure. So, the court hearing only lasted about 30 minutes, and Mangione appeared, walked into the courtroom wearing a prison jumpsuit and previous court appearances. He was able to dress in like a sweater and khakis. So, this was the first time he walked in in that prison outfit. He was shackled at the ankles, and the wrists, led into the courtroom by the U.S. Marshals, took his seat at the defense table between his lawyers and there, his wrists were unshackled, and he was able to take some notes on a legal pad.

Officially today, he went in. He entered a plea of not guilty to the four federal charges. He stood up, leaned into the microphone, and firmly said that he was not guilty. Then they got into some of the back and forth of what kind of evidence the prosecution has. They said they would be turning over large volumes of evidence, including data from cell phones, financial records, all that law enforcement video, surveillance video, the body cam footage, all of that. They were going to begin the process of doing that.

Now, one thing that Mangione's lead attorney, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, said was that because the Justice Department officially notified the court yesterday that they intend to seek the death penalty if Mangione is convicted of the one count of murder through use of a firearm. She said because of that move, she is going to ask to have this case, the federal case, go to a jury and go to trial before the state case where he is facing murder charges for the same alleged shooting.

And so, that is a new development here. She hasn't formally made the request. It's unclear what the Manhattan District attorney's office will say about that, but she's certainly trying to get this death penalty case clearly more serious in terms of the potential sentence here to go to trial first.

She also raised something she said that she learned from the Manhattan prosecutors, where she said that they had been eavesdropping on conversations Mangione had with his attorney while he is in a federal jail. She said the prosecutor said it was inadvertent and that only one person had listened to it. But flagging this to the judge as something that she wants her to keep an eye on. The judge said she wanted the prosecution to get back to them within seven days of exactly what had happened.

Now, the next time Mangione will be back in this courthouse is in December. And that is when the judge said she expects to set a trial for 2026 -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: As people often forget, the Justice Department and the justice system take a long time sometimes. But, Kara Scannell, I know you will be there covering it all. Really appreciate it.

All right. I want to bring back in Bernarda Villalona.

Because, look, as we just heard from kara, the attorney general, the Justice Department wants to push for the death penalty and the federal case. Do you see that as realistic and as we heard from, Kara, would it be unusual for a federal case to go first before a state case for a defendant?

VILLALONA: No, it's not unusual. And sometimes it's strategic for the federal case to go first, because if there's a conviction, what you will want to do is that you will want the defendant to serve their time in a federal jail as opposed to a state jail. So, in terms of what's the likelihood that the death penalty will be found in this case, I think it's highly unlikely that a jury will find that a Luigi Mangione should face the death penalty or be given the death penalty, as opposed to life without the possibility of parole.

In the end, they will have to find him guilty first of the crimes and then move to the death penalty stage, where they have to find unanimously that, number one, that the prosecution proved the aggravating factor beyond a reasonable doubt, but also that the mitigating factors do not outweigh the aggravating factors, and that the death penalty is what should take place in this case.

It hasn't happened in New York. Just a few years ago, you had a man who plowed over eight people on the West Side Highway, and even in that case, the jury from Southern District of New York did not find that he should get the death penalty.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, I guess, look, you know, this is a case that makes a lot of people feel a lot of different things. And, you know, when you get to the process of empaneling a jury, how do you get around the very public nature of this, the sort of wider implications of, you know, let's just say the health care system, tied to this as well. How do you get around all of those outside factors to find a jury that that might be impartial here.

VILLALONA: And it's going to be very difficult, Omar, to find a jury in this case, but not impossible. So, the way you get around it is that you're going to have extensive jury questionnaires where those jury questionnaires will have a lot of questions trying to get to the deep down, how people feel in terms of these issues and whether those feelings will stop them from being fair and impartial. So, the jury selection process is going to be quite extensive in this case, especially if you throw into it that they're seeking the death penalty, because that's another aggravating factor when it comes to selecting the jury. It's not impossible, but it's going to be difficult and very expensive.

JIMENEZ: Bernarda Villalona, really appreciate you being here. Thank you.

VILLALONA: Thank you.

Also staying in New York, disgraced former U.S. Congressman George Santos has been sentenced to 87 months in prison. Now, santos pleaded guilty to aggravated identity theft and wire fraud charges related to activity during his 2022 campaign.

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In 2023, the U.S. House voted to expel Santos over ethics violations, making him just the sixth lawmaker ever to be ousted from the chamber.

Meanwhile, U.S. consumers feeling uneasy. We're going to tell you why, up ahead.

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JIMENEZ: Welcome back.

U.S. consumers are feeling uneasy as warnings of a possible recession and rising inflation trickle down to households. Consumer sentiment plunged in April despite President Donald Trump pausing many of his new tariffs.

I want to bring in Vanessa Yurkevich, who is in New York for us.

So, Vanessa, I mean, where is this plunge sort of coming from?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Well, this is a continuation of what we've seen for the past four months. This is the fourth straight decline in consumer sentiment, this survey that the University of Michigan has been doing. And so, consumer sentiment overall for April dropped by 8.4 percent.

That is a little bit better than what we saw in the initial reading that was captured in the beginning of April, but that initial reading was before President Trump announced his pause on those sweeping tariffs on April 9th, but still a drop of 8.4 percent in one month is significant. It is still the fourth worst reading since the University of Michigan started taking these readings since 1952.

So, we're still not in a positive place in terms of how consumers Americans are feeling about the economy. And what this survey really pointed out was that people were feeling moderately bad about where the economic outlook is now. But we're feeling really bad about future expectations, about the economy. And that had to do with the labor market. And of course, that had to do with trade policy as well.

How people felt about inflation going forward. There was a big jump from 5 percent to 6.5 percent in terms of people feeling like inflation was probably going to tick up in the next year.

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That's the highest reading since 1981. And the University of Michigan really summed it up in terms of where they think things are going forward. This is what they said. They said even more concerning for the path of the economy, consumers anticipated weaker income growth for themselves in the year ahead without reliably strong incomes, spending is unlikely to remain strong. Amid the numerous warning signs perceived by consumers.

And essentially, Omar, how people feel about the economy translates to how they're going to spend in the economy. And usually when people don't feel good about the economy, don't feel good about their own personal bank accounts, they're not spending. And that is problematic because consumer spending makes up about 70 percent of U.S. GDP.

That is why, Omar, we've seen all of these revisions from key groups like the international monetary fund really shrinking U.S. growth for the first quarter, at least, and for the entire year.

That's just a sign that businesses, economic groups are really starting to think that consumers may start to pull back dramatically because of the uncertainty around the economy, and particularly Omar. Obviously, the uncertainty around this trade war.

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

Vanessa Yurkevich laying out all the factors for us. Really appreciate it.

YURKEVICH: Thanks.

JIMENEZ: All right, everyone, we got more news coming up on the other side of the break.

Stay with us.

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JIMENEZ: It's been an extraordinary few days of tributes to Pope Francis this week. On Saturday, a procession will take the pope's body through the heart of Rome to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. He will be laid to rest there in a simple, unadorned tomb, reflecting his final wishes. World leaders, monarchs and ordinary worshipers will be in attendance, including President Donald Trump and former President Joe Biden.

In total, the Vatican says that a quarter of a million people have paid their respects this week. Unfortunately, though, there have been some issues along the way. Vatican officials have had to ask visitors not to take selfies with the body of the late pope. Putting aside questions of basic politeness, it's also against Vatican rules to photograph the pontiff on his sickbed or death or after death without permission.

And you can join CNN for Pope Franciss funeral on Saturday.

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Our special coverage begins at 8:00 a.m. in Rome, 7:00 a.m. in London and 2:00 a.m. on the United States East Coast.

All right, before we go. Finally, tonight, a stunning sight lit up the night skies of southern Brazil. Take a look at this. Cameras caught this meteor flaring brightly on Wednesday. You see it come across the screen there, flashing into green. It entered the atmosphere over the Atlantic Ocean before soaring across the country. The meteor split into multiple fiery trails as it disintegrated, illuminating the skies of Brazil's southernmost state. The director of a local space observatory said it might be the largest meteor to fall in the region.

All right. That's where we end the show today. Thanks for joining me here on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Omar Jimenez.

Stay with me, though, for "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS", coming up next.