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The Funeral Of Pope Francis; St. Patrick's Cathedral Holds Mass In The Next Hour; Mourners Gather In Buenos Aires, Pope Francis' Birthplace; Cardinals To Meet In Conclave To Choose Next Pope; Trump, Zelenskyy Meet For Talks Ahead Of Pope's Funeral; WI Judge Charged With Allegedly Obstructing Immigration Agents. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired April 26, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:35]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Victor Blackwell in Atlanta, and welcome to CNN's special coverage of the funeral of Pope Francis.

He's now at his final resting place, breaking with more than a century of tradition and choosing to be buried outside the Vatican. His final journey to a (INAUDIBLE) basilica in Rome where he often prayed wound through the streets and passed some of Italy's most famous landmarks, as many as a million people lined the route to bid him farewell.

Another quarter million people jammed into Saint Peter's Square and spilled into the neighboring streets.

A man beloved for his humility and tireless advocacy for immigrants and the poor, drew the faithful from around the world.

Ahead this hour, we'll share some of the most moving moments from this morning's funeral.

And we'll also look ahead to the conclave. How and when will the next pope be chosen? And who are some of the potential successors to the people's Pope Francis?

First, this morning, Catholics around the world are attending mass and celebrating the life of Pope Francis. Let's start with Brynn Gingras outside of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York where service begins at the top of the next hour.

How big a crowd is expected to attend there, Brynn?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Victor, it's really hard to tell, to be honest with you. As you know, St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City is such a tourist destination.

And all morning we have been seeing people go inside the cathedral and taking a moment to themselves and thinking about Pope Francis, of course, as there is also just a memorial set up on the altar inside St. Patrick's Cathedral. But as you said, at 12:00, there is a special mass dedicated to Pope

Francis and the Archbishop Caccia is overseeing that mass. Now he was the permanent observer of the Holy See to the United Nations. That is a position that he was actually appointed to by Pope Francis.

So there is certainly a personal connection to Archbishop Caccia, who will be saying that mass at noon. And certainly, of course, as we have seen throughout the weeks, many

of the homilies of these priests, these archbishops who are overseeing the mass, like Cardinal Dolan, for example, much of their thoughts and their attention is paid to Pope Francis and just remembering his life.

Now, of course, we've talked to a lot of people who, again, who have been in and out of St. Patrick's Cathedral even this morning. And that's again where their thoughts are.

We actually spoke to one woman who was doing missionary work, if you can believe it, in Egypt, and actually just got back to New York City and said she was compelled to go into St. Patrick's Cathedral for that very reason, to remember what she does, the purpose of what she does, and how that was something Pope Francis, of course, advocated all around the globe.

Take a listen to what she had to say about being inside the cathedral this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANE SOLOMON, PAYING RESPECTS AT ST. PATRICK'S CATHEDRAL: There's so much anxiety and sadness in the world. And he was a light, a shining light that for everyone, not just -- not just for Catholics, fallen away Catholics or any other. But he was a light and gosh, and today there's so much sadness. So to go in and just kind of reflect is probably a good thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: And that woman actually said she was a little bit jet lagged, Victor, so she was able to catch some of the funeral on TV. And she appreciated how understated it was.

Of course, that is just a nod to who Pope Francis was. Everyone -- one word they always talk about of him is his humility. And she appreciated that.

So we'll certainly look for that homily coming up in this mass at 12:00, again given by the Archbishop. And we look forward to hearing what he has to say, of course, about the late pope, Victor.

[11:04:50]

BLACKWELL: All right. Brynn Gingras outside St. Patrick's Cathedral. Thank you.

Thousands of miles away, there's a processional that's happening now in the Pope's hometown of Buenos Aires. The mass just concluded -- concluded, I should say.

Pope Francis was born in Buenos Aires in 1936. Served there until he became pope in 2013. For hours, people packed the streets, paying respects to the pontiff.

CNN's David Culver joins me now from the cathedral in Buenos Aires. David, tell us a little bit about what happened this morning.

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Victor, it did start as a mass this morning here at the Plaza de Mayo, but I'm not really sure what it has now evolved into. I mean, it's almost a festival-like setting and atmosphere of a lot of young people who have different religious groups.

You have huge groups, scouts you can see out there. They were jump roping and it just seems that more than anything else, an opportunity for people to come together and be with one another, which when you think about Pope Francis, that's exactly what he preached.

He said that a bishop or priest that is out of touch with the people is not a shepherd, but an official. And he always wanted people to be within the flock and be out and about. And he thinks that for young people, too.

And it seems that they're living that today. It's interesting to hear the past several days we haven't yet -- I'm going to move this a little higher up because it's going to get loud. We haven't yet seen the celebration or gathering even of this magnitude.

And I wondered perhaps it was just going to stay as isolated little pockets (INAUDIBLE) devout citizens. But no, this has brought everyone out. And not just folks from the city center. But this is one of the priests here too handing them some bread.

Not just folks from the city center. This has brought people in from the city margins, the fringe of society, literally bussed in and brought together to be part of this moment, which just seems to be living exactly what Pope Francis was so eager to see.

BLACKWELL: A blend of mourning there, but also celebration of the man they knew well. David Culver joining us from Buenos Aires. Thank you.

The Pope was just buried a short time ago at the Basilica Di Santa Maria Maggiore. The service was simple. It was solemn, perfect for the Pope, who followed in the footsteps of Saint Francis of Assisi, the champion of the disadvantaged.

CNN's Barbie Latza Nadeau is in Rome. She joins me now. Barbie, what is it like there?

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN REPORTER: You know, it's just really still all these hours after his Popemobile brought him to his final resting place, it is still a very emotional, magical time.

And in a couple of hours' time, they'll be doing a rosary prayer service here in the piazza behind me. And they're setting up for that now. But we've seen people around all day. No one seems to want to leave this piazza.

This was such an important church for Pope Francis. Santa Maria Maggiore here is dedicated to the Virgin Mary. He visited over 100 times in his 12-year papacy, usually before a trip or after a trip. But most recently when he got out of the hospital fighting double pneumonia on March 23rd.

So it was really important. But what I find so interesting, the people here, it's a local church, it's a parish church, and all those parishioners who had seen the Pope on his visits here and who felt that he recognized them, and this was his church, too, were out here this morning welcoming him to their church.

And it was just so emotional. The clapping, the crying, the rosary, the singing along. There are giant screens that were broadcasting the funeral in Saint Peter's Square across town.

And, you know, just to see his Popemobile take him past all those amazing Rome monuments, the Colosseum, the Roman Forum. You know, he was a son of Italian immigrants.

And there's just a little part of him. I'm sure that, you know, wanted to be buried in Italy, not in Vatican City. And so, you know, a lot of people think this is just a perfect church for him. It meant so much to him. And the Virgin Mary represented by this church so much his favorite saint, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Barbie Latza Nadeau for us there. Barbie, thank you.

Again, more than 250,000 people attended the Pope's funeral, many of the world's leaders. Chief of the European Union, Ursula Von Der Leyen, she shared these photos, meeting French President Emmanuel Macron and President Donald Trump, first lady Melania Trump as well.

There are about 130 delegations total present at the Pope's funeral, but one meeting in particular made some news. President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy face to face for the first time since their Oval Office spat in February that ended in Zelenskyy essentially being kicked out of the White House.

CNN's Kevin Liptak joins us now from New Jersey, where the president will be this weekend.

[11:09:49]

BLACKWELL: Kevin, we all watched the February meeting. We got pictures of what happened today. How did this meeting go?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. The White House is calling it very productive. It only lasted about 15 minutes.

But those pictures are quite extraordinary. These two men sitting essentially knee to knee inside Saint Peter's Basilica, appears to be in quite deep conversation. It doesn't seem to be as contentious as that Oval Office meeting 57 days ago that resulted in Zelenskyy being essentially evicted from the White House. But it did come at quite a critical moment as President Trump becomes more and more frustrated that he is not able to broker a peace between Russia and Ukraine.

The U.S. has put forward this peace plan that would essentially force Ukraine to cede all of the territory that its lost over the course of this war, and would also include American recognition of Russia's sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula, which it illegally annexed in 2014.

Zelenskyy has said that he cannot sign off on that type of plan, which has led to some of this contention that we have seen between the two men.

President Trump has said just in the last week that he is, quote, not a fan of Zelenskyy. He's accused him of prolonging this conflict. But it does seem as if this meeting could potentially have broken some ground.

And we heard from Zelenskyy afterwards. He didn't provide any of the precise details of what he talked about with President Trump. But he did say this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, how did the meeting with Trump go?

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: It went really, really well. Productive meeting. I don't want to go to a lot of details if it's possible, because the questions were sensitive questions on of course, totally it's about how to bring peace closer. And how was result in positive Paris and London. And we want to continue such meetings to bring peace to Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: Now Trump is now headed back from Rome, here to New Jersey. He did post relating to the Russia-Ukraine conflict from Air Force One, and it was highly notable what he said.

He said there was no reason for Putin to be shooting missiles into civilian areas, cities and towns over the last few days. And you'll remember, Russia bombarded Kyiv just this last week, its worst assault on the Ukrainian capital in nine months.

The president went on to say, "It makes me think that maybe he, referring to Putin, doesn't want to stop the war. He's just tapping me along and has to be dealt with differently through banking or secondary sanctions."

And this is a very notable shift. Victor, you know, I asked President Trump at the White House on Thursday whether he still believed that Putin wanted to achieve peace in Ukraine. He said that both sides did want to achieve some sort of peace plan.

Now the president seems far less certain. After meeting with Zelenskyy, after speaking with some of these European leaders in Rome, it is a notable shift in tone and it is -- will be very important to see how that develops as the president nears this 100-day mark of his presidency.

BLACKWELL: Steve Witkoff was just with President Putin this week. We'll see what next week brings.

Kevin Liptak for us, thank you.

People from around the world were at Saint Peter's Square today to say goodbye to Pope Francis, some of them with signs saying "thank you, Francis" and "Goodbye, father, maestro and poet."

Here's why they say it was important for them to be there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we want to show our love for our pope, Pope Francis. This is the only way that we can show to him our love and our prayer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's just different. Really humble. Love the poor people. He went to the border between Africa and Europe and went to Iraq or Iran. And I think he was the best. Still the best, actually.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was different. He was not afraid to speak. And of course, according to me, in my opinion, he was always ready to give a voice to the voiceless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: All right. Attention now turns to an election unlike any other in the world, picking the next pope. Coming up, we'll talk about how the conclave will work and which cardinals are deemed papabile, which ones are being watched as the potential successor to Pope Francis?

[11:14:15]

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL GIOVANNI BATTISTA RE, DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS (through translator): Feed my sheep. This will be the constant task of Peter and his successors. A service of love in the footsteps of Christ, our master and lord, who despite his frailty and suffering towards the end, Pope Francis chose to follow this path of self-giving until the last day of his earthly life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: It's part of the moving homily by Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re during the funeral of Pope Francis, speaking to the role every pontiff must play in serving their flock.

[11:19:47]

BLACKWELL: Now, among the mourners in Saint Peter's Square were many of the cardinals who will choose the next pope in a closed-door process known as "the conclave".

For more on that, were joined now by CNN religion contributor Father Edward Beck. Also with us, director of Catholic Studies and Aquinas Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at Emory University, Antonio Alonso.

Father Beck, first to you, the conclave. Break down the process for us. And what will happen over the period.

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION CONTRIBUTOR: Well, as you know, it's pretty secretive. Most people by now have seen the movie. The streaming is up for the movie.

What happens is, during this time, the bishops, the cardinals, are gathering in what's called general congregation. So they're getting to know one another.

Remember, a lot of these cardinals are from countries that had never had cardinals before, so they don't really know each other. So these meetings will have an opportunity for that -- Get to know one another.

They will give speeches. They'll hear one another. There'll be some dialog. And then they will enter the conclave. And all communication with the outside world will be cut off for them.

And the first day of the conclave, they have one round of voting. And it's -- it's very kind of primitive in some ways. They have their pen and their paper, and they write, I elect nominate this person to be supreme pontiff. They put the little piece of paper in an urn. They all step up and put it in. Then those votes are counted.

Two-thirds majority is needed. So we're going to have 135 cardinals voting. That means 90 is the winning vote. So if nobody wins on the first round, the next day there's two rounds, and then two rounds the next day after that.

So it's really a process that is of discernment and prayer and them getting together to get to know each other and talk to each other.

And sometimes a very unlikely candidate emerges as a result of these meetings and conversations during these days.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Antonio, to you, it seems very kind of antiseptic -- a, b, c. How much does politics influence what happens in that room?

ANTONIO ALONSO, DIRECTOR OF CATHOLIC STUDIES, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I think what makes the conclave interesting is it's this interesting mix of the spiritual, the transcendent and the mundane, the messiness of earthly reality.

So politics absolutely plays a part in the conclave. But I think one of the most underappreciated things about Pope Francis himself was he was a great politician. He needed to build consensus with people. He knew how to use the media to evangelize through images and words.

And so the next pope as a leader on the world stage and needs to be able to do the same.

BLACKWELL: Let me stay with you. And it's interesting because Father Beck mentioned that sometimes an unlikely pope comes out of that room.

Then-Cardinal Bergoglio was not on the list of those who were being considered. He obviously became Pope Francis. But if you look back to the election of Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Ratzinger was at the top of the list.

So is it clear who is the outlier here? Is it more common for the frontrunner, the favorite, to be elected?

ALONSO: Well, I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase papabile, the electable ones. Yes. But there's also the kind of this adage that he who goes into the conclave of pope comes out a cardinal. It's a way of saying, we just don't know what's going to happen.

And it's just like you said. I remember watching him out on that balcony when he came out, and I was like, who is that? So one never knows what's going to happen.

And that's kind of one of the wonderful things. These men spent a lot of time together over these days, and they don't know each other that well, so they need to work together.

BLACKWELL: Father Beck, let me come to you. And I know it's probably a fool's errand to say or ask who do you think is going to be the next pope?

But of those who you think are papabile, as we're using the word -- the word here who are your cardinals to watch?

FATHER BECK: Ok. Now, these are not my personal choices, necessarily. I want to make that clear, Victor. But these are names that are being spoken of.

So let me say something first about Cardinal Tagle. He is Filipino. He was known by a nickname called Chito, and some called him the Asian Francis. He's now 67. He was a candidate last time. He's very much in the mindset of Pope Francis.

And really, if people think they don't want to go back to a western European candidate, that maybe they would move now toward Asia, now that they've had a pope from South America.

[11:24:53]

FATHER BECK: So I think Cardinal Tagle will be certainly one to watch.

Another one, of course, the present secretary of state, Cardinal Parolin. If you're going back to an Italian, he seems the likely choice. He again is very much in the mindset of Pope Francis, but he's a quieter person, kind of subdued personality. Some think that perhaps we need someone More charismatic now to follow

Pope Francis. But nonetheless, Cardinal Parolin would be a possibility.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

FATHER BECK: Do you want more?

BLACKWELL: Let me -- let me get more -- let me get a couple from Antonio. Who's on your list?

ALONSO: Yes, I think I would share those that Father Beck mentioned. The other one, I think that -- that's not up on the screen is Cardinal Turkson from Ghana. I think he's an interesting candidate. He was a huge advocate for Pope Francis' work on ecology and the environment. He helped author Laudato Si.

But certainly Tagle, people say he's the Asian Francis. But what I think is so interesting is what made Francis "Francis" he is from Latin America, and what makes Tagle "Tagle" is he has that experience in the Philippines, one of the fastest growing regions of Catholicism in Asia. So he would be an interesting candidate.

BLACKWELL: Father Beck, let me play a bit of the homily today and get your thoughts on it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL BATTISTA RE: Build bridges, not walls was an exhortation he repeated many times, and his service of faith as successor of the Apostle Peter was always linked to the service of humanity in all its dimensions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Words chosen carefully. The importance and relevance of that passage in this setting.

FATHER BECK: Well, certainly, as one who builds bridges, not walls -- that was an infamous statement. And again, pontifex, pontiff, the very word means bridge builder.

And of course, we had President Trump sitting there from an American perspective, we cannot help but remember that Pope Francis called out President Trump for his position on immigration, for not building walls -- he exhorted him not to. And so that certainly is there.

What also comes to mind in what the cardinal said in his homily is that this pope really was for the disenfranchised, the poor, and was for immigrants and migrants, and on the side of the dispossessed.

And so some world leaders sitting there might think, well, that's kind of a political statement. And it goes against some of their political philosophies.

But Pope Francis didn't really care about all of that. He spoke what he felt to be the gospel truth. That was his politics, the gospel. And if he got political as a result of him being steeped in that gospel tradition, then so be it. He didn't shy away from politics, but that wasn't his goal.

BLACKWELL: Father Edward Beck, Antonio Alonso -- thank you both.

FATHER BECK: Thank you, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Pope Francis often called for peace in Ukraine. And at the Pope's funeral, President Trump, President Zelenskyy had a chance to meet inside Saint Peter's Basilica.

This is going to be an enduring image of these talks between the U.S. and Russia and Ukraine. We'll go live to Rome for reaction to this moment next.

[11:28:26]

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BLACKWELL: This morning, President Trump met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy ahead of Pope Francis' funeral. The White House called the meeting very productive. Zelenskyy said it was a good meeting, very symbolic.

It happened as the United States pushes for a peace deal to end Russia's war on Ukraine.

Here's CNN's Nic Robertson in London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: You're looking here at images of an event we didn't know was going to happen, a meeting between U.S. President Donald Trump, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, a meeting on the margins of Pope Francis' funeral.

They're sitting inside the Vatican. Inside Saint Peter's Basilica, and joining them there, there's Emmanuel Macron, the French president, Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister.

Ukrainian officials say the meeting with President Trump was very productive. Lasted about 15 minutes.

But in one of the images there, Emmanuel Macron has his hand on Volodymyr Zelenskyy's shoulders -- very powerful image.

Remembering that just a few months ago, back in February, the last time President Zelenskyy met President Trump, it was a tempestuous meeting. The U.S. President pressuring to accept peace on terms he didn't want to accept. Telling him that he wasn't appreciative enough of the U.S.' support -- a tempestuous meeting.

Zelenskyy, now having the backing of the French president, the British Prime Minister in those talks. [11:34:40]

ROBERTSON: And the symbolism writ larger than even just being in the Vatican while Pope Francis' funeral is being prepared, a pope who wanted peace in Ukraine, who was all about peace in his life that this meeting should take place. So symbolic.

Nic Robertson, CNN -- London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: All right. Nic, thank you very much.

Let's go now to Rome for more with CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. He's the White House and national security correspondent for "The New York Times".

David, good to see you again. That this meeting happened, right, and these enduring images that will be part of the narrative of the future of the talks -- what does that tell you during the week that we heard the president or at least saw him on social media say, "Vladimir, stop."

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That's right, Victor.

And actually, after he left Rome this afternoon, he issued sort of a similar critique of Mr. Putin. The question is, how heartfelt is that?

So the symbolism here was remarkable. First there was the beautiful pageantry of this funeral. And I think that the genuine good feeling for the Pope and this astounding gathering of leaders, royalty, religious leaders from around the world.

What I found interesting about it Victor, was that out of that entire grouping, President Trump found only time to see Zelenskyy and only about 15 minutes. He could have stayed around and talked to the European leaders about tariffs, about NATO. Many of the other leaders did stay.

He wanted to get back to New Jersey where he was going to be at his golf club tonight. So he left right away.

But the image of the two men, Zelenskyy and President Trump poised on those metal chairs in the middle of Saint Peter's Basilica, I think, as you said, is going to be a lasting image.

And the question is, how much did they air their differences, and they are big right now, about what to offer the Russians in return for a ceasefire.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Let's stay here for a moment, because as we see these images and the conversations and they're both saying nice things about the talks.

SANGER: Right. BLACKWELL: The word that stood out to me from President Zelenskyy is that he said it was symbolic. It was very symbolic. I wonder if you saw anything in that that maybe suggested, yes, we're talking, but maybe not progress. Did you take something from that characterization?

SANGER: Well, sure. The last symbol that they had of their relationship was Mr. Zelenskyy being evicted from the White House without lunch and without this agreement on mineral rights and so forth. So he was, of course immediately ousted and his aid cut off.

So the very fact that they were engaged in what looked like an intense conversation, or at least a concentrated one, was a very good thing.

What's missing from that word is whether they had substantive agreement. And that's critical because the president and his aides have circulated a proposal for a ceasefire deal that would involve the United States reversing itself and recognizing Crimea as part of Russia.

That would give Russia most of the land that it took illegally and impose very few requirements on them and none to rebuild Ukraine.

While President Zelenskyy is circulating a counter proposal that is exactly the opposite and would require reparations from Russia and would put off the question of what land they get to hold.

BLACKWELL: One of your more recent pieces for "The Times" points out that the funeral for John Paul -- Saint John Paul II -- showed a bipartisan delegation of presidents traveling to his funeral.

There was an opportunity here because President Biden did attend today. It didn't -- it didn't happen.

SANGER: It really jumped out at me, Victor. I was on that 2005 trip, and we had President Bush, President Clinton, and President Bush's father, George H.W. Bush, all there. They arrived together. They motorcaded over and prayed in front of the body of John Paul II.

Here, President Trump barely even acknowledged that President Biden, who obviously had a pretty close relationship with the Pope and saw him last year at the summit meeting here in Italy was even there just a few rows behind him.

Mr. Biden got here on his own -- on his own steam. There was no communication back and forth.

[11:39:49]

SANGER: When asked on the plane whether he would try to see Mr. Biden, who of course, he had just pulled his security clearances, President Trump had. He said, no, I don't think I'll be spending any time doing that.

It's a really different world we're living in today than the one that we saw in 2005.

BLACKWELL: David Sanger -- understatement there. Thank you so much for your time this morning.

SANGER: Great to see you.

BLACKWELL: CNN's coverage of the funeral of Pope Francis will continue.

We're also following major news here in the U.S., including the arrest of a judge in Wisconsin. We'll get reaction to the government's claim that she obstructed immigration agents, next.

[11:40:28]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: A judge in Wisconsin has been arrested and charged for allegedly obstructing ICE agents. Judge Hannah Dugan is accused of helping an undocumented immigrant avoid arrest.

Now, according to court documents, federal agents arrived to a courtroom to detain a Mexican immigrant just over a week ago. Witnesses say they saw Dugan direct the man to leave her courtroom through a private door. He was later taken into custody.

Joining us now is CNN's senior law enforcement analyst, Andrew McCabe. Andrew, I've heard you say that this incident should never have happened. Explain why.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I think There's a whole bunch of different ways that this -- this thing went wrong.

And I should say, first of all, I don't believe that the law enforcement officers here did anything inappropriate. It is maybe shocking for some people to realize, but people do get arrested at the courthouse periodically. It doesn't happen every day.

But it is a place that you can know someone where you know someone's going to be there at a particular time. And you can do it in a way that's safe, because they've already come through a metal detector.

Now, those arrests are usually required to take place in the public spaces, the hallways, outside the courtrooms, and not to interrupt the courtroom proceeding.

But it sounds from the complaint like that's exactly what the law enforcement officers planned to do here.

Whether or not the judge intentionally obstructed the proceeding and intentionally concealed this man from arrest, those are the charges -- those are the offenses she's been charged with will come down to determining her intent.

But there are a bunch of witnesses in this complaint who will, unlike who will certainly testify on behalf of the government as to what they saw her do. So it won't be a question so much of, did she or did she not walk

these people back into a private hallway? It will be more what did she intend by doing that?

BLACKWELL: Ok, so let's stay in this space here, and let's extract the politics. Let's take the Trump of it and the mass deportation and all of that out of it.

I know you say you have to get to intent, but how strong, based on the complaint, do you think the case is?

MCCABE: I think it's fairly strong, Victor.

As I said, there's a number of witnesses here who perceived these events in real time. They've reported what they saw to the -- to the agent who's put that into the complaint.

There's a bunch of law enforcement officers who were there who listened to the things she said, who will testify about how she reacted negatively to the discovery that there was law enforcement outside of her courtroom.

So there's a lot of circumstantial evidence there. But it will come up -- it will come down to a jury to determine whether or not they think the judge intentionally tried to conceal this person or get him away from law enforcement.

So it's not a slam dunk, but it's also not a, you know, it's not an unreasonable complaint. There's plenty of evidence in the complaint to get you beyond the probable cause phase, which is where we are right now.

BLACKWELL: And then after the arrest, soon after, the FBI director Kash Patel posted an announcement of sorts on social media, the Attorney General Pam Bondi went on Fox News and called the judge deranged.

I mean, the pedestrian question is, why would they do that? What would be the value of that? But I wonder, does that damage the case in some way?

MCCABE: It should. I mean, I think when you start looking at how the judge was treated after the events that led to the charge. So where and when and how she was arrested and the fact that she was arrested at the courthouse rather than her own residence, the fact that she was placed in a jail cell for hours before her arraignment was called in the court later in the afternoon. These things are unprecedented.

Typically, upstanding members of the community who have no criminal history and aren't accused of a violent act are allowed to self- surrender at the time of their arraignment. The fact that they did not offer that courtesy to her, and instead went out of their way to treat her harshly, I believe is an act of performative cruelty on behalf of the Department of Justice, which is not the way any Department of Justice should be acting. Then their conduct in going directly to the media and spiking the

football over this arrest of a member of the judiciary, also a departure from policy, totally unnecessary. And I think inappropriate by an attorney general and an FBI director.

BLACKWELL: Andrew McCabe, thank you.

A two-year-old citizen is deported alongside her undocumented mother. That and other headlines you need to know this morning. That's next.

[11:49:49]

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BLACKWELL: We're keeping an eye on other stories making news this morning.

Virginia Giuffre, one of the most prominent sexual abuse survivors of financier Jeffrey Epstein, has died. Her family says she died by suicide after being a longtime victim of abuse and sex trafficking.

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BLACKWELL: Giuffre also accused Britain's Prince Andrew of abusing her when she was a minor at 17 years old. Now Prince Andrew has repeatedly denied the claims. Giuffre, a mother of three, was 41 years old.

A federal judge says a two-year-old girl was deported yesterday despite being a U.S. citizen. The Trump administration says the toddler's mother, an undocumented immigrant, asked to take the little girl with her as she was returned to her native Honduras. But the father was petitioning the courts to keep her in the U.S.

The woman and the child were both detained Tuesday when the mother reported for a routine check in with immigration officials. A hearing is scheduled for mid-May.

A week's worth of events for the World Pride Festival just got canceled at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. Several artists and producers involved in the event said that the events were either canceled or moved to other venues. Washington's Capital Pride Alliance disassociated itself from the Kennedy Center in the wake of the cancellations.

The Kennedy Center has undergone a slew of changes in recent months. President Trump replaced most of its board with loyalists who then elected him the new Kennedy Center chairman.

And finally, a stunning turn in the NFL draft. Shedeur Sanders still has not been picked. Most were expecting Sanders, the son of Hall of Famer Deion Sanders, to get picked early on. That pass got a lot of experts talking and even President Trump, who implied the NFL owners must be stupid not to pick Sanders.

The draft continues today at Lambeau Field.

Thank you for joining me this morning.

NEWSROOM with Fredricka Whitfield is up next after a short break.

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