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Slain Conservative Activist Charlie Kirk's Wife Erika Speaks Publicly On Her Husband's Legacy And Continuing His Movement; Officials And Investigators Announce Intention To Push For Death Penalty For Accused Killer Of Charlie Kirk; Cuban National Accused Of Beheading Man With Machete At Dallas Motel; Secretary Of State Marco Rubio Criticizes Russian Drone Incursion Into Polish Air Space; President Trump Announces Deployment Of National Guard To Memphis, Tennessee, To Reduce Crime; Charlie Kirk's Popularity On Social Media Increases After His Death; Doctor Who Cured His Own Fatal Disease Now Uses Same Technique To Treat Others. Aired 2-3p ET.

Aired September 13, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: And worries about a slowing labor market are showing up in the data now. Last week, unemployment claims reached their highest level since 2021. The U.S. also created 911,000 fewer jobs between April of 2024 and March of 2025, and August jobs report showed that businesses added just 22,000 jobs, and revisions also showed that the economy lost 13,000 jobs in the month of June. That is for the first time in nearly five years. Back to you.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Vanessa Yurkevich, thanks so much.

All right, tomorrow on "The Whole Story," political violence has always threatened our democracy. After the latest tragedy, where does America go from here? "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper, Political Violence, America's Bloody History," that's Sunday night, 9:00 p.m. eastern and pacific, right here on CNN.

Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

All right, this hour, the investigation into the accused killer of conservative activist Charlie Kirk is ramping up. Twenty-two-year-old suspect Tyler Robinson is being held without bail in a Utah jail as officials work to determine possible motives behind the killing. Searches were conducted at Robinson's apartment yesterday after officials announced he was in custody. Meantime, Kirk's widow is speaking publicly for the first time since her husband's death, issuing a defiant message to the suspect and vowing Kirk's legacy will continue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIKA KIRK, WIFE OF CHARLIE KIRK: If you thought that my husband's mission was powerful before, you have no idea. You have no idea what you just have unleashed across this entire country. The movement my husband built will not die. It won't. I refuse to let that happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: CNN's Ed Lavandera is on the campus of Utah Valley University, where the tragedy happened just days ago. Ed, what more are we learning?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the campus is still closed. We've learned today that the university is planning to reopen classes next Wednesday, and that will be the day after the suspect in this shooting, Tyler Robinson, makes his first initial court appearance, which is expected to happen Tuesday afternoon after prosecutors here, we are told, will file the formal criminal charges against him. So that's what we're looking at.

As you can look after the campus still very much quiet here, Fredricka, but there has been a steady stream of people here gathering for a makeshift memorial that has popped up just on the edge of the campus here. And people just kind of constantly coming by, paying their respects. A place for fans of Charlie Kirk to mourn together here. And we've seen this kind of continuing now for several days.

But all of this continuing as the investigation and investigators try to find a motive. There's still not a lot of context by some of the initial statements that investigators have shared about what family members saying that the suspect had talked about disliking Charlie Kirk, that he felt that Charlie Kirk spread hate. There's still a great deal of context about why exactly he did not like Charlie Kirk and what would have propelled him to take the tragic steps here that ended the life of Charlie Kirk, bringing so much sadness not only to his family, but to his legions of followers around the country. The governor of Utah talked about that push to find the motive here last night with CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. SPENCER COX, (R) UTAH: Theres so much we still don't know. But certainly there was a radicalization that happened in a fairly short amount of time. And again, that's not to -- sometimes when we talk about people getting radicalized, that's to blame others instead of the person. And I don't want to take away that agency. This person made a terrible decision and will pay the price for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: Yes, officials and investigators here say they are going to push for the death penalty in this case. And again, those formal criminal charges expected to be filed next to Tuesday here in Utah. And federal charges could be coming as well. So that legal process and the investigative process continues to intensify as we get closer to those -- that looming court date on Tuesday, where were expected to see the suspect make his first appearance. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: All right, Ed Lavandera in Utah, thank you.

All right, let's continue this conversation now. With us is Cynthia Miller-Idriss. She's the founding director of the Polarization and Extremism Research and Innovation Lab at American University and author of the book "Man Up," about the rise of violent extremism. So great to see you.

[14:05:06]

I wonder, you know, this is a pretty critical moment, you know, on how America, you know, can keep the tinderbox, so to speak, of discord from exploding. Are you mostly relying on leadership to change the rhetoric out there? The tone?

CYNTHIA MILLER-IDRISS, DIRECTOR, POLARIZATION AND EXTREMISM RESEARCH AND INNOVATION LAB: I think, well, first of all, thanks for having me, Fredricka.

I think there's two things really to be super concerned about here. One is the leadership rhetoric. And we've seen, luckily, I think a pretty decent response from elected officials that in a bipartisan way condemns the violence. That's really important, to point out that there's no cause for anyone to be shot, no matter how much you disagree with them. That has to be condemned.

The social media discourse, though, has not followed, and I think that means that there's a cultural moment here for everyone over the dinner table, on the soccer field, in the pub, right, to do the same kind of de-escalation and to make sure that people aren't jumping to conclusions about the motivation when we don't know, but even once we do know a motivation if we get to that, that we're not unleashing further types of violence against groups in retaliation.

WHITFIELD: And for those who are, you know, saying that you know, its opposing political views that's at the core of fueling violence or, you know, exacerbating this tinderbox, you know, how do we collectively kind of turn that around?

MILLER-IDRISS: Well, I think there's two things that have to happen without question. One, we have to reduce the rhetoric that positions us versus them as an existential threat, that makes it seem like the other group is a danger, an existential danger to you, your family, your future, your civilization. I mean, anything like that is the type of thing that is going to make it seem like violence is a more acceptable solution, or even a desirable one.

And the second, the second and related problem is that we have increasingly, also generationally, a younger generation who believes -- I think the statistics I saw yesterday were 56 percent of Gen Z believe it's OK to use violence to achieve your political goals in some circumstances. And so really helping young people see that when they say things like there is no political solution, whether that's to immigration or to climate change, that's a call to violence. That's dangerous. And that has real repercussions for democracy, for our safety, and for our well-being as communities.

WHITFIELD: So if what you're saying is, you know, on social media, it's probably more influential than even elected political leadership, who is going to be responsible, you know, for resetting that tone on social media, especially since you just described young people largely are getting their cues from that?

MILLER-IDRISS: Yes. I mean, this is where actually I think influencers, people with large followings online and people who are experts or leaders in other ways on social media should be universally condemning the violence and calling for patience and for, you know, a little bit of lack of, you know, stop speculating, stop assuming you know the answers to these things, because it's risky. It puts people at risk. And, you know, at the same way that we're seeing a ton of doxing happen of people who celebrated it, these things are risky and they cause potential harm to other people in the future.

WHITFIELD: In fact, I do want to ask you about that because, you know, while there was universally shock, of course, and then at the same time, there was almost a glorification of what happened in other circles, too. And you saw all of that, you know, coming together, conflicting on social media and otherwise. I mean, you know, how do people process that? What are they learning about each other and the way in which people are handling what just happened?

MILLER-IDRISS: Yes, and this is, you know, we saw the same thing in the wake of the assassination of the United Healthcare executive, that when there's so much frustration boiling up and a combination of that sort of language that we hear sometimes among young people, that there is no political solution, that you start to see a valorization of violence and even assassinations.

And that's really dangerous. And I think anything we can do to tone that rhetoric back, to remind people of our shared humanity, no matter how much we disagree, and of the rule of law in providing accountability when something illegal has happened. But vigilante solutions that use violence are never going to be a good idea in moving forward with a kind of cohesive democracy.

WHITFIELD: I mean, you're in the business of evaluating all of this, but I wonder, you know, for you, what are your biggest concerns about the days ahead or perhaps even the biggest hopes?

[14:10:02]

MILLER-IDRISS: So my biggest concerns have been, you know, since this happened, really since, is that we get to more violence, right? I mean, we definitely want to see that we're not going to have retaliatory violence, that we're not going to have riots. You know, I mean, when Martin Luther King was assassinated, you had 100 cities burn, right? You don't want to see these kind of the tinderbox explode into additional anger, into additional reaction from any side. And so one, there's that, so making sure that we're dialing it back.

And two, I would say, you know, as I always say, and you've heard me say this before, making sure that we don't respond to this in a way that securitizes, that suppresses our freedoms, that locks down our lives even more. I don't think the solution here is to add so many more security measures, so many more metal detectors. We need to invest in prevention, and we need to make sure that communities understand what the warning signs are, know where to report. Most mass shooters leak their intentions. We don't know if he did, but there must be systems in place and we have to invest in those in order to prevent things like this from happening instead of just lock ourselves down afterward.

WHITFIELD: All right, Cynthia Miller-Idriss, thank you so much.

MILLER-IDRISS: Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: Later this hour, we'll look at the legacy Charlie Kirk leaves behind in Americas political landscape.

And up next, the investigation into a gruesome, deadly attack in Texas. Here the shocking 911 call.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:09]

WHITFIELD: All right, and now this extremely disturbing story out of Texas that many viewers are going to find pretty upsetting. A Cuban national is being accused of beheading a man with a machete at a Dallas motel. Police say the attack happened in front of the victim's wife and son. ICE officials are calling the suspect a depraved criminal who is in this country illegally. CNN's Rafael Romo is here with more details on all of this.

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SENIOR LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR: Thats the key word there, Fred, "disturbing." And it really is. This case is very disturbing.

And officials say the suspect, the Cuban national, is being held without bond on a charge of capital murder by terror threat and has a lengthy criminal history that includes serious crimes. According to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, those crimes include child sex abuse, grand theft of a motor vehicle, false imprisonment, and carjacking. CNN requested more detail about those allegations, including when and where they allegedly took place, but ICE did not provide any and CNN cannot independently verify the accusations.

We need to warn our viewers again that some of the details in this case are gruesome. According to a court affidavit filed in the case, the suspect, identified by the Dallas Police Department as 37 year old Yordanis Cobos-Martinez, has admitted to using a machete to kill a man. The affidavit also says that Cobos-Martinez was working in a motel room when the victim, identified as Chandra Nagamallaiah, asked an unidentified witness working with the suspect to translate the request not to use a broken washing machine. Apparently, the request made the suspect so upset that he pulled out a machete and started cutting and stabbing the victim multiple times, even after he ran to the hotel office, at one point pushing away Nagamallaiah's wife and son as they attempted to make him stop. The 911 call indicates Cobos- Martinez didn't stop at stabbing the victim multiple times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now to that stabbing. The suspect has a machete, and Fire is noticing that he is actually cutting someone's head off. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: Dallas police say this violent crime will not go unpunished.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRENCE RHODES, EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT CHIEF, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: The preliminary investigation determined that the suspect cut the victim with an edged weapon several times. Dallas Fire rescue responded to the scene where the victim died. The suspect is in custody and charges are pending.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: As you can imagine, people in Dallas struggle to put into words their reaction when asked by CNN affiliate KTVT the day after the gruesome murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANN ERWIN, AREA RESIDENT: I find it sick, disgusting. Just it, it just, I'm speechless.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's kind of out of the norm, and it's mind blowing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: Immigration and Customs Enforcement issued a statement Thursday announcing it had launched a detainer for the federal arrest and removal of Cobos-Martinez, whom ICE called a depraved criminal illegal alien from Cuba. In a statement, a top DHS official said that "This is exactly why we are removing criminal illegal aliens to third countries. President Trump and Secretary Noem are no longer allowing barbaric criminals to indefinitely remain in America. If you come to our country illegally, you could end up in Eswatini, Uganda, South Sudan, or CECOT," referring to the notorious prison for alleged gang members in El Salvador, where U.S. officials have sent undocumented migrants during the current Trump administration.

President Trump and several officials in his administration have used serious crimes committed by people accused of being in the country illegally as the reason why a tough immigration crackdown is needed across the United States, of course, something that we have reported extensively on, Fred.

[14:20:00]

WHITFIELD: All Rafael Romo, thanks so much.

All right, the next city President Trump says he will crack down on crime in Memphis, Tennessee. Memphis Mayor Paul Young said on CNN today he didn't have official confirmation of the National Guard coming to his city until the president announced it on Friday during an interview with FOX News. Earlier today, Young spoke to our colleague Victor Blackwell about the National Guard coming to Memphis. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PAUL YOUNG, (D) MEMPHIS: I learned earlier this week that it was under consideration, I think Monday afternoon. I got a call from the governor's office, and they informed me of the dialogue that was underway. Certainly, there were a couple of conversations that were happening all week, trying to look at the form of how the support would come to the city, because the dialogue that I had been having was around how we can get more federal resources for FBI, DEA, ATF. And while those things are still under consideration, I learned that the National Guard is a part of what they are exploring as well.

And as you know, the authority to call the National Guard lies with the governor and the president. And so, as mayor, my goal is to make sure that if they are indeed coming, that we have an opportunity to drive some of the decisions around how they engage in our community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And no word yet on exactly when National Guard troops will arrive in Memphis.

Quote, "unacceptable and unfortunate and dangerous." Secretary of State Marco Rubio speaking out against Russia's drone incident in Poland as the president says he is ready to hit the Kremlin with major sanctions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:14]

WHITFIELD: An anti-immigration protest in London took a violent turn today, as police say a far-right -- a group of far right demonstrators, rather, attacked officers with projectiles. The metropolitan police service said the attacks happened after Unite the Kingdom protesters breached an area that kept them away from counter- protesters. With more than 110,000 people demonstrating, authorities said officers had to intervene in multiple locations and reported a number of officers being assaulted. Huge crowd there.

All right, new today, President Trump talking tough to NATO countries and giving them an ultimatum, saying they need to stop all purchases of Russian oil if they want the White House to impose sanctions, that Moscow said this week negotiations to end the war in Ukraine had stalled. It also comes just days after Russian drones were shot down inside Polish airspace.

We've got full coverage of these developments. With us now is CNN's senior White House reporter Betsy Klein. Betsy, our NATO countries likely to fall in line with Trump's demands?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Well, they could be. I spoke with one European diplomat who is hopeful that this could ultimately lead to a resolution. But President Trump issuing this ultimatum to NATO countries, saying that the U.S. is prepared to put major sanctions on Russia only if they do the same and if they stop buying gas from Russia.

Now, this also comes in a letter from President Trump that says that these same countries should also increase tariffs on China, a significant escalation to 50 to 100 percent tariffs on China.

But all of this is really unclear whether these other countries could get on board. It would mark a very major, significant shift in policy from these countries if they meet the president's demands. The president saying in that letter, quote, "NATO's commitment to win has been far less than 100 percent, and the purchase of Russian oil by some has been shocking. It greatly weakens your negotiating position and bargaining power over Russia."

But this is generally not how NATO countries approach the use of tariffs. It's really setting up a test of President Trumps influence over this alliance. And it all comes as momentum toward ending Russia's war in Ukraine has largely stalled, and Russia has shown no signs it's planning to de-escalate. We saw that incursion of Russian drones into polish airspace just earlier this week. And Secretary of State Marco Rubio was asked about that just moments ago. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think anybody is happy about it, seeing it happen. You saw NATO respond to it appropriately. We don't want to see it happen again. We think it's an unacceptable and unfortunate and dangerous development in this regard. I think it will take a few more days for everybody to fully -- the drones were intentionally launched. No doubt about it, the drones were intentionally launched. The question is whether the drones were targeted to go into Poland specifically. If that's the case, if the evidence leads us there, then obviously that would be a highly escalatory move.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KLEIN: Now, President Trump says that his patience with President Putin is running out and running out fast. But his latest demands risk prolonging this conflict, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Betsy Klein, thanks so much.

All right, new today, President Trump calling out NATO countries over Russian sanctions. And it comes just days after the Kremlin said that negotiations to end the war in Ukraine are going nowhere. CNN's Nada Bashir has more.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

NADA BASHIR, CNN PRODUCER: U.S. President Donald Trump has issued an ultimatum to NATO allies, saying in a letter that the U.S. will issue what he called major sanctions on Russia only when all NATO member states agree to do the same and agree to stop buying oil from Russia.

[14:30:11] Taking to social media, the U.S. president quoted from the letter, saying "NATO's commitment to win has been far less than 100 percent, and the purchase of Russian oil by some has been shocking. It greatly weakens your negotiating position and bargaining power over Russia. Anyway, I am ready to go when you are. Just say when."

Trump's demands come as Russia embarks on joint military drills with Belarus, said to be testing the readiness of their armed forces, and as NATO launches a new initiative dubbed the Eastern Sentry, aimed at reinforcing the defense of the alliance's eastern flank. The operation is set to begin over the coming days, involving the U.K., France, Germany, Denmark, and others.

In an announcement on Friday, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte said the Eastern Sentry operation will add flexibility and strength to the alliance's posture and make clear that NATO is always ready to defend. The decision to launch the operation follows a breach of Polish airspace early Wednesday by Russian drones, a move described by NATO's chief as both dangerous and unacceptable.

But the secretary general also noted that this was not an isolated incident, adding that Russia's, quote, "recklessness" in the air along NATOs eastern flank is increasing in frequency.

Nada Bashir, CNN, in London.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, also new today, video showing a high rise building in Gaza City being destroyed by an Israeli bombing. It was hit shortly after an evacuation order was issued for that tower. A nearby building was targeted yesterday. One resident there says she's now homeless.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DINA MHANNA, RESIDENT OF TARGETED BUILDING (through translator): My home, my safety, my life, my whole life has been spent in this house. It's the safety of my children. Now I can no longer feel safe for myself or my home.

I don't know where to go. I'm standing here with nowhere to go. I have no place in the south, no place in Gaza. I have found nowhere. Where do we go? Someone please tell us where to go. There is no safe place. Everywhere they say is safe, but the bombing continues and death is everywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: A U.N. run school in Gaza was also hit in yesterday's strikes.

Still to come, as his followers mourn the death of Charlie Kirk, his family promises to continue his legacy of open political dialogue. And Kirk's message is now spreading to a much larger audience.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:37:24]

WHITFIELD: Supporters are continuing to mourn the loss of conservative activist Charlie Kirk in cities and college campuses across the country. Thousands have gathered at vigils paying tribute to a man who they say understood them and spoke for them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXIS BREUER, STUDENT: I think that Charlie came around at a point in time when a lot of us were afraid to voice our beliefs, were afraid of the backlash from our peers. And he was an example to the rest of us, someone else that was in our age range that understood the generation that we were in. And he was an example to us that we don't have to be afraid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Kirk's death is also sparking a massive growth in the conservative activist's fan base. Social media stats show a huge surge in popularity across media platforms associated with Kirk.

Brian Stelter is CNN's chief media analyst. Brian, with us now. You know, you've been looking into the analytics associated with Charlie Kirk's social media. And what are you finding?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes, millions of new followers, millions of new followers and subscribers across Kirk's social media footprint. And of course, this social media footprint was really important to Kirk as he built Turning Point USA and built his personal brand into one of the most influential parts of the Trump movement and the Republican Party in this generation.

Kirk was able to build his popularity by sharing videos on YouTube, by posting on TikTok, by engaging on Instagram, et cetera. And what I'm finding is in the three days since the shooting, he has added millions of followers on those platforms. We can put up some of the data on screen, you know, 3.5 million, 3.5 million new followers on Instagram, for example, more than a million on TikTok, more than 2 million on Facebook.

And I spent the day looking through his YouTube channel, where he's also gained a lot of new followers. Of course, this is all going to roll over to Turning Point USA, to his widow, Erika, and to his allies and colleagues who want to continue his movement. So it's really notable to see that big uptick all across the board in social media interest in Kirk.

I'm also seeing a lot of people sharing old videos of him in new ways, recirculating his message. And I want to tell you, Fred, the vast majority of the comments on these YouTube videos are mournful. They are not full of rage the way we're seeing from some far-right commenters elsewhere. They're not people bashing Kirk the way we've seen some on the left do really grotesquely. People are mourning. They're expressing sadness and horror about this. And that is what the vast majority of the comments on those YouTube videos show.

WHITFIELD: And what's the feeling about, you know, the sustainability of this surge in popularity long term? I mean, especially without the namesake of this movement, even though his wife and others want to keep the movement going.

STELTER: Yes, I think that's absolutely the right question to be asking. And it's the great unknown going forward. Turning Point USA is much bigger than Kirk because it has hundreds of chapters on college campuses as well as high schools all across the country. But Kirk was this incredibly charismatic leader. I thought of him sometimes as a secular preacher of sorts, as well as a movement leader, as well as a TikTok star.

As you mentioned, his widow, Erika, did say last night that this will continue. She said, my husband's voice will remain. It will ring out louder and more clearly than ever. And we know his podcast, his radio show, all of that will be continuing, but it will now be up to Erika and her colleagues at Turning Point USA to figure out how to move this organization forward on a daily basis.

WHITFIELD: All right, Brian Stelter, thanks so much.

All right, let's talk more about the legacy and the impact of Charlie Kirk. Carine Hajjar is with us. She's an opinion and editorial writer for "The Boston Globe." She wrote an op ed on Charlie Kirk this week, headlined, "The killing of Charlie Kirk, a generational conservative voice." Kareen, great to see you.

CARINE HAJJAR, OPINION AND EDITORIAL WRITER, "THE BOSTON GLOBE": Good to see you. Thanks for having me on.

WHITFIELD: So Kirk's wife, Erika says the movement will continue. In what form do you see that happening without Charlie Kirk?

HAJJAR: Well, I think in a lot of ways, the movement could be bigger than ever. He really, his goal was to go on campus and prompt sometimes uncomfortable conversations. Not only did he share his views very openly in a way that I think was really productive and jarring on college campuses, because a lot of times you had sort of a prevailing viewpoint, and he came in to change that. But he also platformed dissenters.

And I think that now Turning Point is going to more than ever, you know, try to create spaces for debate on college campuses. They have hundreds of chapters around the country. I don't see them slowing down in any way with prompting the debates that Charlie really stood for.

WHITFIELD: So let's reflect now on Kirk's rise and impact. How did Kirk go from starting Turning Point in 2012 to being so influential that he could have 800 college chapters that even Trump is crediting Kirk as helping to increase support for him?

HAJJAR: Well, I think in a lot of ways, like, look, a lot of people had issues with some of his opinions. But I think it's really admirable that he was willing to air them so honestly in hostile environments. And I think he struck a chord with a lot of conservatives on campus or anyone of any ideology that really felt like they weren't able to have a conversation with the prevailing progressive orthodoxies on campus.

And he was willing to have these conversations in this cancel culture period. He really leaned into disagreement without ever cutting off his dissenters. He always gave them a platform. It's interesting, if you scroll through his Instagram, as I've been doing, you know, just reflecting and writing about him, a lot of times he'd make a very controversial statement and then invite his commenters to, quote, "prove me wrong."

WHITFIELD: Like an example would be what?

HAJJAR: I think that that is a -- for example on abortion or on transgender issues, for example, you know, transgender athletes should not play in women's sports. These are the type of hot takes that he would have and state and then invite his commenters to weigh in on the debate. I think that spirit is something that people really had, you know, an appetite for on campus when everything was so sanitized.

WHITFIELD: So the group's goal, the group has said, you know, its mission is to, and I'm quoting now from that mission, "to identify, educate, train and organize students to promote the principles of fiscal responsibility, free markets, and limited government." So is it the topics that were the lure, that mission that's the lure, or was it mostly about him, something about his format, his communication style?

HAJJAR: I think it's a lot of -- I think it's a little bit of all of the above. But certainly, Kirk was a gifted debater and orator, whether you agreed with what he was saying or not. He was just a fantastic speaker. He really knew how to leverage social media as well. And I think it's a sort of a testament to the political savviness of the movement that he was able to build it in the early 2010s and in the Tea Party period and transition it into the MAGA movement. These are very sort of different political iterations of political conservatism, and that he was able to articulate the arguments of both so well, it does speak to his talent as an orator and as a debater.

WHITFIELD: So you wrote, you know, in "The Boston Globe" op-ed, I'm quoting now, "The political arm of TPUSA, which Kirk founded in 2019, helped run part of Donald Trump's 2024 get out the vote effort and tapped into a growing conservative appeal among young voters and its culture war conservatism.

[14:45:10]

Kirk's political style drew controversy even among some Republicans. He often made brash comments about migrants, minorities, and LGBTQ Americans, and endorsed ideas like the great replacement theory." So while he had a lot of support, obviously, there were a lot of adversaries as well. Was he mindful of that? Did that in any way fuel him or detract him?

HAJJAR: Look, I think he was fueled in large part by platforming different opinions and arguing with them. That was really at the core of his mission. And so, yes, he had very strong views, and he never seemed to really water them down for the audience he was speaking to. But at the same time, he always opened these college events up to debate. I think that's really important.

Look, we live in a really diverse, large country, and the truth is that people do have fundamental moral disagreements in this country. And I think in that way, he was an essential and sometimes uncomfortable reminder that the First Amendment is not just for, you know, pleasantries that everyone agrees on. It's for speech that makes people uncomfortable as well. And I think -- I believe that that's what he would hope his legacy is that people really remember why we have the First Amendment, and that he leaves behind an example of debate.

WHITFIELD: Carine Hajjar, thank you so much for being with us.

HAJJAR: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, still to come, the remarkable story of a student with a fatal diagnosis who discovered a life-saving solution for himself and others. The story of this champion for change, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:51:34]

WHITFIELD: All right, this week we have been introducing you to our Champions for Change, people who are quietly working behind the scenes, finding new ways to make life better for others. Well, today we meet a man who, as a young med student, was on his deathbed with a rare immune disorder. But he used his medical knowledge to discover a lifesaving solution for his own disease and carve a new pathway to save others. Dr. Sanjay Gupta shares his story.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DR. DAVID FAJGENBAUM, CO-FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, EVERY CURE: When I got the phone call from my dad saying, David, your mom has brain cancer, that just changed everything for me, Sanjay. I'd made a promise to her just before she passed where I said, Mom, I'm going to dedicate the rest of my life trying to find treatments for people like you.

And then in my third year of med school here at Penn, I just got critically ill, and everything changed. The doctors told my family I wasn't going to make it. My family said their goodbyes to me. A priest came into my room and read me my last rites. I had so many things that I wanted to do in my life that I wasn't going to be able to do. I had this amazing girlfriend, Caitlin, that I wanted to have a family with one day.

The diagnosis came back, Castleman disease. They started me on chemotherapy right away because there were no approved treatments and they just wanted to try something.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So David Fajgenbaum decided to look at his own blood samples, his own lymph nodes, as sort of a Hail Mary, trying to find a clue and hopefully find a treatment that everyone else had missed.

D. FAJGENBAUM: These are actually a couple slides from these early experiments I did. This is a typical lymph node. We saw that it's brown, means that the pathway is turned on. And as you see, there are cells that stain brown. But then we stain my lymph nodes. Wow. This result really stood out to me, and exactly I thought, OK, if this thing is so turned on, I know to turn it off because the drug sirolimus is really good at turning it off.

GUPTA: Sirolimus is a drug that's actually been around for decades, primarily used to treat transplant patients. For David, it worked. It helped tamp down his immune system, treat his Castleman's, and only cost him about $20 a month.

You saved your own life. At what point did you say, hey, look, I need to widen the mission?

D. FAJGENBAUM: Sanjay, I have never been able to walk past a CVS since then without just thinking to myself, how many hidden cures are just sitting in there that we're using them for this disease or that disease, but they can also be used for that disease and that disease. It gives me goosebumps.

In 2016, my uncle Michael was diagnosed with metastatic angiosarcoma. I went with Michael to see his oncologist, and I started asking questions. Well, could we, you know, think about existing medicines that could be repurposed? And the doctor said, David, no one with angiosarcoma responds to these medicines.

DR. MICHAEL FAJGENBAUM, ANGIOSARCOMA PATIENT: So I then went back to my doctor in Raleigh. I asked if he would send tissue for this advanced DNA testing. I was convinced because of David that this was the right course to follow. He finally sent tissue off, and it turned out that I was exact match for a drug that was already in existence. Here I sit nine years later.

D. FAJGENBAUM: In Michael's story, that for me was this incredible moment to think, wait a minute, are there breadcrumbs out there for other diseases too?

[14:55:02]

GUPTA: In some ways, this is a little bit of an indictment of the existing medical system. Like, how did they not find a $20 a month drug that you could take orally that has saved your life now for over a decade?

D. FAJGENBAUM: You know, drug companies pursue single drugs for a few diseases and then the drug becomes generic, and they move on. There's never really been the kind of computational power to really look across 18,000 diseases and about 4,000 drugs.

GUPTA: David is trying to change those numbers. So far, him and his team, they have repurposed 14 drugs, offering hope for diseases that previously didn't have a lot of hope. David is a champion for change. He not only saved his own life, but he's now using what he learned to save many more lives.

You're doing well today?

D. FAJGENBAUM: I'm doing well, yes.

GUPTA: I mean, are you physically 100 percent?

D. FAJGENBAUM: I'm 100 percent. It's been 11-and-a-half years. Today also happens to be my sweet daughter's seventh birthday. I mean, Sanjay, I'm not supposed to be here.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

WHITFIELD: Wow, what a path. Be sure to join Dr. Sanjay Gupta tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern when he hosts a one-hour special for the Champions for Change.