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Police Update On Deadly Michigan Church Mass Shooting And Fire; Mayor Eric Adams Out Of NYC Mayoral Race; Medical Groups Denounce Trump Tylenol Claim For Pregnant Women; Possible Government Shutdown This Week; Suspected Church Shooter Was Outdoorsman And Military Veteran; Interview With Rep. Jake Auchincloss (D-MA). Aired 7-8p ET

Aired September 28, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:48]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jessica Dean here in New York.

In the next hour, we are expected to learn more about how a gunman with an assault rifle turned a day of rest and prayer into a day of terror and grief for a community outside Detroit. You see there that church also being lit on fire. The Church of Latter-day Saints in Grand Blanc, Michigan, now mourning the murder of two people at its place of worship as hundreds were gathered there. Eight others injured in this.

The police chief says not only did the suspected shooter, Thomas Jacob Sanford, open fire on the church, as we mentioned, he also set it on fire. And authorities say Sanford, who lived in a nearby town, was killed in a shootout with police that took place within nine minutes of that initial emergency call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF WILLIAM RENYE, GRAND BLANC TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN: That call came out at 10:25 a.m. and 57 or 32 seconds. We had officers on scene at 10:25 and 57 seconds. The suspect, again we're in the preliminary stages right now, was neutralized at 10:33:44 in the parking lot of that church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: The chief will give another update, they say, about an hour from now. We will, of course, keep an eye on that and bring it to you.

In the meantime, let's go to CNN's Julia Vargas Jones who's been following this for us.

Julia, sources say investigators working right now to figure out a motive in this.

JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a motive and any connection that this shooter might have had to that church as they pieced together some of what we are seeing. You know, we saw images of that truck going into the church. We saw the two American flags, like trying to piece together who this person was, that connection to the church.

But also at that same time, Jessica, just in the past couple of hours, we're learning that law enforcement is just now being able to make their way through the church after that fire has been contained to look for potential other victims. We were warned earlier in the day in the first press conference from the police chief of Grand Blanc, that they were concerned that there could be more victims coming as they process that scene, a complicated scene, and looking for a key question here is how that fire was started.

They said that it was -- they believe that it was by that shooter, but they also found an explosive device at the scene. Just take a listen to how the chief described those moments right after -- during that attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RENYE: He rammed the vehicle through the front door, exited, then started firing shots. We are still trying to determine exactly when and where that fire ended up coming from and how it got started, so we believe it was deliberately set, though, by the suspect. So where we go from here is we have investigators. We're going to do search warrants on the suspect's residence. We're going to find out if there was a motive. We're going to go through cell phone records, things like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: And investigators are already carrying out, getting ready at least to carry out that physical search of his house, as well as cell phones. One of the key tips here where there were seeing some clue, perhaps, of what they're looking for is that we have seen, Jessica, bomb squad units being moved around that residential area near that church.

DEAN: All right, again, we are expecting an update in about an hour.

Julia Vargas Jones, thank you for bringing us the latest.

We're also joined now by Jason Pack. He's a retired FBI supervisory special agent.

Jason, thanks for being here with us. The first thing you notice when you look at this video of this scene is this massive fire, just black smoke going up into the air in addition to what we know, of course, the shooting and him, the suspect, ramming his car into the front of that church. How does that complicate what investigators are trying to do right now?

[19:05:06]

JASON PACK, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Well, Jessica, first, our hearts are certainly with that community there. No one expects that to happen when you go to church. I went to church today. No one thinks that's going to happen. So how it complicates that is this fire could destroy evidence that may be in there. It makes it harder for rescuers to go in. You see the fire companies in the ladder trucks. They're trying to put that fire out. So if there were any forensic pieces of evidence that might make that more difficult.

But it seems like they're on top of it. They know who and they know what. Now they're just trying to get to that why. So I think that's what we're looking to hear in the press conference coming up.

DEAN: Absolutely. Of course, when things like this happen, people immediately want to know the why. What was the motive? What was this person after as they are putting the pieces together with that walk us through what they'll be looking for and how they do that.

PACK: They'll be looking for anything that could track back to this pathway of violence that we hear so much about unfortunately these days. So these search warrants that are being executed, this fire investigation that the ATF and the state police are doing in concert with the FBI, all these things will be there to see where there are signs of planning. What was the ideation?

They're also going to be interviewing neighbors, witnesses, family members, associates that this person may have known to see if there are any clues in that. And also importantly, there is some reporting that there may have been a military nexus to the suspect. And so if that's true, they'll get somebody like the NCIS to verify those particular military records, see what his military operational specialty was, and identify additional associates there.

So it's a really comprehensive investigation. You know, I think 100 or more FBI agents, state police certainly are capable agency there to support the Grand Blanc Township Police.

DEAN: Yes. And again, just going back to the idea that this was an attack, as you mentioned, on a place of worship on a Sunday when no one would expect, obviously, such a thing to happen and they shouldn't expect such a thing to happen when they are -- when they are at church in the morning. This is the third attack on a place of worship in the U.S. in the last month. What does that say to you? What do you take away from that?

PACK: Well, it's certainly going to have to cause churches to kind of take a look at being what we call a soft target. And unfortunately, preparing for that. I know some states have grants for houses of worship that they're helping to do just that. It's a sad state that we have to do that. But you want to be prepared for that, but you also want to be able -- it's one thing to have law enforcement and maybe the mental health community look into this.

But as a greater community, you want to speak up. We all here, if you see something, say something. Well, that also applies to things like this when people may have these ideations and the sooner in that process that law enforcement and mental health can intercept that, the better shot they have of preventing things like this. Now, not everything is 100 percent preventable, let me tell you that,

for sure. But these ideas that you're, you know, somebody you know are saying interesting things or scary things, that's something you got to speak up and say. And I think a lot of times people have been a little hesitant to do that. But as we see this more and more, particularly on places of worship like this, it is becoming more concerning.

DEAN: Certainly is. All right, Jason Pack, thanks for your time tonight. We appreciate it.

PACK: Thanks, Jessica.

DEAN: New York Mayor Eric Adams is dropping out of the race for the mayor of New York City, ending his reelection bid. Earlier today, Adams announced he was dropping out he says due to a lack of fundraising and what he calls constant media scrutiny. He didn't say anything about what comes next for him. Democratic socialist Zohran Mamdani now responding to the news posting, "Adams had his chance," and that he did not do much to help working class New Yorkers.

Mamdani says it is time for a new day, in his words. But Mamdani's critics hope that with Adams dropping out, that potentially that could consolidate enough support behind Andrew Cuomo to really mount a challenge to Mamdani, who has continued to lead in poll after poll, of course, beating Andrew Cuomo in the June primary here in New York City.

Let's talk more about this with CNN chief data analyst Harry Enten.

You're going to run the numbers on all of this, Harry. Where does the race stand with Adams out?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Yes, with Adams out, that has the effect of being a giant dud. I don't think it makes much of a difference at all. Why is that? Well, let's take a look, Jessica. Let's take a look at Mamdani leads the New York City mayoral race. With Adams in the race, he was ahead by 19 points. Now, with no Adams in the race, guess what? Mamdani still leads the race. He leads it by double digits, by 15 points.

So, yes, maybe the margin has shrunk a little bit with Adams dropping out of the race. But when you're going from a 19-point lead to a 15- point lead, and we have only a little bit more than a month to go, the Adams dropping out of the race, at least according to the polling data that we have at our fingertips currently, will not make much of a difference.

[19:10:10]

That's why I say it will be more like a dud than a giant thud.

DEAN: Right. And so why does the margin not move much?

ENTEN: Why does the margin not move much? Well, in your intro you were mentioning Andrew Cuomo a lot. Well, there's another candidate who is still in this race. That is the Republican candidate, Curtis Sliwa. And take a look here. Choice for New York City mayor, well, you still got the opposition split, right? You got Mamdani over here with 45 percent. Then you have Andrew Cuomo with 30 percent, and then a giant piece of the pie, what we're talking about, is about one-sixth of the vote right now going to the Republican Curtis Sliwa.

Look, it may be difficult to beat Mamdani if you get into a one-on- one. But now when you have two folks who are splitting that opposition, that makes it pretty much impossible. If the race stays where it is right now, and Curtis Sliwa does not decide to exit the race, well, this is going to be one of the easiest mayoral victories that we could possibly see with Mamdani running very much ahead of the rest of the pack, Jessica.

DEAN: Yes, and look, there is no indication at this point that Sliwa is going to get out. But if he did, what would that mean?

ENTEN: OK, so now you're talking. Now we're baking with some real ingredients here. All right, Jessica. If in fact Curtis Sliwa got out of the race, what would happen? Well, Mamdani would still lead. Now it would be a shrunken margin. You got Mamdani right here with 49 percent, and you get Andrew Cuomo with 42 percent. But even so, Cuomo still trails in a two-way against Mamdani here with Mamdani right near the 50 percent mark.

And the other thing I will note as I'm sure Curtis Sliwa would say, oh, you know what? Maybe if I got into a one-on-one, right, Andrew Cuomo already had his chance in the primary against Mamdani. Give me a one-on-one. Well, I was looking at some of the data. And you know what? That really wouldn't make too much of a difference either. Curtis Sliwa would very likely lose in a one-on-one at this particular point.

No matter what way you slice the cake or the pizza pie, given that we're here in New York City, it really would suggest that Mamdani is still the favorite, regardless whether it's a four-way or now a three- way, or if you even get him into a two-way.

DEAN: And why does Cuomo always trail no matter what the scenario there?

ENTEN: Yes. OK, so this is the whole thing, right? During this entire primary season, I've heard a lot of people saying, oh, we need to get Mamdani into a one-on-one. Here is the whole freaking problem with this. All right. Here's the whole freaking problem, which is the underlying currents of this race favor Mamdani so strongly. What are we talking about? Well, why don't we just look at the net favorable ratings?

Well, Zohran Mamdani comes in with a plus 12 net point favorable rating, right? Favorability rating. Look at how far underwater Andrew Cuomo is. He is 17 points underwater on the net favorability rating scale. That is a 29-point difference. The bottom line is this. Unless Andrew Cuomo can become popular overnight, and I don't know if you know this, Jessica, but I think you do, which is that Andrew Cuomo has been involved in New York City and New York state politics since, basically, since I was yay high. And they know him and they don't like him. Unless he can magically

sprout popularity overnight in the final month of this campaign, this race is probably adios amigos. Unless Mamdani's own favorable rating is able to be brought down. The bottom line is this in races for mayor, the more popular candidate usually wins. And at this particular point, Zohran Mamdani is much more well-liked than Andrew Cuomo is.

And unless that changes, what we get is a race that looks exactly like this. If you get into a one-on-one with him, or you get this, which is probably the way this is going to end up, because as you said, Jessica Dean, there is no sign at all that Curtis Sliwa is leaving this race. And that means Mamdani by double-digits unless something changes over the final month of this campaign.

DEAN: Yes, we got about five weeks to go. Harry Enten, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Good to see you.

ENTEN: Thank you. Nice to see you.

DEAN: Coming up, an OB-GYN joins us to discuss the consequences of President Trump's latest comments on Tylenol and vaccines. We're also tracking the latest developments on two major storms spinning in the Atlantic that could potentially join forces. And time is running out as Republicans and Democrats deadlocked over keeping the government funded beyond this week.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:19:04]

DEAN: President Trump is again going beyond the FDA with his claims about Tylenol and childhood vaccines, once more telling pregnant women to not use Tylenol and saying parents should not give it to children for, in his words, virtually a reason.

This week, Trump claimed Tylenol can be associated with, quote, "very increased risk of autism" despite decades of evidence that it is safe. That same day, Trump's FDA released a statement which read in part, quote, "It remains reasonable for pregnant women to use acetaminophen in certain scenarios."

Let's bring in OB-GYN Dr. Veronica Gillispie Belle. She's also a vice chair of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists Clinical Practice Guidelines Committee.

Doctor, thank you so much for being here with us. We're glad to have you back. You were here with us just a couple of weeks ago, and we continue to just get a lot of information that I think a lot of people need clarity on. When it comes to what the president has said, that parents should not give Tylenol to their children for virtually any reason, what do you say to that? What does the science show us?

[19:20:07] DR. VERONICA GILLISPIE-BELL, OB-GYN: So the science shows us that Tylenol is safe in pregnancy, and it is safe to give to children. We have guidance from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, as well as the Society for Maternal Fetal Medicine that reassures us that the data shows that Tylenol is safe during pregnancy. And then the American Academy of Pediatrics has also reiterated that Tylenol is safe for children as well.

DEAN: And so when people are now evaluating all of this, I would assume you're hearing from patients as well in your practice, where do you think they're getting hung up? What are some common places of confusion with all of this information floating around?

GILLISPIE-BELL: Yes, as I'm talking to mothers, as I'm talking to pregnant women, they are confused. You have the, again, our professional societies saying that Tylenol is safe. Then we have the FDA, we have Secretary Kennedy, we have the president saying it's not safe. And so it's really been confusing for families to understand what is true and what is not true. And so we really have, as providers, as the medical community have really advocated for our patients to talk to their health care providers.

These are conversations and decisions that should be made between providers and their patients. Understanding that providers are going to use the guidance that comes from evidence. And again, that comes from our professional societies. And so hopefully we can help our patients and our families navigate through some of the confusion and some of the noise.

DEAN: Yes. The bottom line, talk to your doctor if you have any questions, it sounds like.

GILLISPIE-BELL: Yes.

DEAN: Yes. I also -- yes.

GILLISPIE-BELL: Yes, definitely.

DEAN: Yes, go ahead. Yes. I also want to ask you about the review by the FDA of the abortion drug mifepristone. This is a drug that has long proved to be safe and effective. Is it necessary to do an additional safety review at this point?

GILLISPIE-BELL: It does not seem like it is necessary to do an additional review. There is over 20 years of data showing that mifepristone is safe. The most recent study was in 2024. It involved over 6,000 women, and it showed that it was safe, as safe as an over- the-counter medication. So it's really unclear why the FDA is restudying the medication. It has been FDA approved since 2000, and there's no new data to show that it's not safe. So it's really unclear why the FDA is going down this road to restudy the medication.

DEAN: Can you help people understand, too, how mifepristone is used and in what scenarios?

GILLISPIE-BELL: Yes, so most commonly mifepristone is used to induce an abortion and so those are elective or if there are medical abortions. There are times in pregnancy either when the heartbeat stops for the fetus or because the pregnancy has already started to miscarry, that we need to give medications to help that process alone. And so mifepristone is used in conjunction with another medication called misoprostol to help that process go along.

DEAN: And in those scenarios where a woman is already miscarrying, where this is happening, she didn't choose it, she didn't want it. This is happening probably in a very emotionally sad way for her, if she doesn't get these drugs, if she doesn't have that, what can happen?

GILLISPIE-BELL: So that can be a very dangerous situation. Once the body understands that this is a pregnancy that is not going to be able to continue forward, and then starts that process of miscarrying, if we are not able to help that process along, it can lead to significant bleeding. It can also lead to infection. If we're not able to use medications, we have to intervene with surgery. And of course, surgery has surgical risks. Risk of bleeding. Risk of infection. Risk of injury to the uterus. We can also have injuries and complications that can make it difficult to conceive again.

DEAN: All right, Dr. Gillispie-Bell, thank you so much for being here with us. We really appreciate it. Some good facts here. We appreciate that.

GILLISPIE-BELL: My pleasure. Thank you.

DEAN: Still ahead, we are following this breaking news out of Michigan with the shooting and fire attack on a Michigan church. We'll have the very latest for you when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:28:55]

DEAN: People on the coast of Florida, Georgia and the Carolinas are getting ready for Tropical Storm Imelda headed their way. That storm expected to bring flooding and heavy rain. Imelda has shifted north. It might make another last minute turn, though, before it reaches the South Carolina coast. It's also expected to cross paths with Hurricane Humberto.

Chris Warren is tracking all of this for us.

What is the latest, Chris?

CHRIS WARREN, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, in a way, you can think that people in South Carolina and Georgia can even thank Humberto. It's going to play a role in the fact that Imelda is going to go away from the coast. This is a beast of a storm right here. Still a category four hurricane, 145-mile-an-hour sustained winds gusting to 175. This one never really had any threat to the mainland U.S. This, though, did, and I could still say, does pose somewhat of a threat getting lashed right now in the Bahamas by heavy rain and some strong, gusty winds. This is a tropical storm, Imelda, winds at 40 miles an hour. So a 100-

mile-an-hour winds lower than Humberto. So what's going on here is that the storm is -- instead of what we looked like seeing possibly just a couple of days ago going inland, it's making this hard turn. That has been the trend over the past couple of days. It is still expected to strengthen to a Category 1 hurricane sometime tomorrow night or into Tuesday, and getting up to a 90-mile an hour storm as its moving away from the U.S.

[19:30:26]

Now, when we look at the forecast models and these lines kind of all doing the same thing, a little bit of separation, but not one going this way or that way, which we did see late last week and the beginning of the weekend, much more agreement in what's going to be happening in terms of where it goes. So, on the way, you see Humberto and Imelda, notice you have some of these lines that kind of go over. You kind of get a sense that there is an interaction going on here with these two storms.

This one's a lot stronger and with this swirl, in a sense, it's kind of giving Imelda a little bit of a tug or kind of like a little nudge saying, come with me, we're going out to sea. And that's ultimately what's going to happen.

However, there is still going to be some of the heavy rain with this because it's going to take a couple of days. And even with a little bit of a wobble, a little bit of a movement closer to land could mean some heavier rain. And remember, both of them are going to be hurricanes here in a couple of days.

So, they're both going to be pushing a lot of water, a lot of ocean water toward the beaches. Rip currents going to be a huge concern. Rough surf, some beach erosion and still it's possible there could be some flooding, especially with that front sets up there near the coast, but it could have been much worse. Were still not completely out of it. Things can change, but we are feeling much more confident that there's going to be a track out to sea.

And in fact, Jessica, you can even see that track with the rain footprint right here with Imelda and then right there with Humberto as it moves out.

Now you get two to four inches, maybe four plus inches. It could lead to some localized flooding. So that's something you still need to think about. But the most dangerous, still life threatening possibility here will be getting in the water. It's the rip current risk which will be high tomorrow from Miami all the way up, Jessica, to New England.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: All right, Chris Warren tracking the latest for us, thank you for that. Coming up, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle remain deadlocked on a deal to keep the government open beyond this week.

We're going to talk to a Republican Congressman about the sticking points. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:37:07]

DEAN: This just in to CNN, we are learning more about the man police say crashed his car into a Michigan church and then started shooting inside. This is a picture of that man, Thomas Jacob Sanford, a Marine veteran in the Iraq War, Police say he went on a shooting rampage at the church of Latter-day Saints in Grand Blanc Township, Michigan, killing two people and wounding eight others before police killed him in a shootout.

Again, you are looking at the gunman. They also say he set the church on fire during his attack. You can see it's a massive fire. It spread quite quickly. Let's go to the scene now. CNN's Leigh Waldman is there in Grand Blanc Township, about an hour drive north of Detroit.

Leigh, we are seeing his face for the first time. We are learning he is a veteran. This as this investigation is very much underway to try to determine a motive and see if there are additional people still inside that church where the fire was.

LEIGH WALDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jessica, you're exactly right. And at this point, this scene, even hours later after the shooting and subsequent fire happened, you can see for yourself just how incredibly busy it is.

Let's take a look here. Down the road there is where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is. Down the road from where we are. You can see ambulances still there. There's multiple different law enforcement vehicles. We saw a helicopter flying overhead when we arrived here just a few minutes ago.

If we can also pan to the other side of the street, these people are all waiting to be taken back to their cars that are still in that crime scene area.

It's a very, very active scene here as law enforcement works to try and piece together what exactly happened here, trying to determine any kind of motive that this gunman had whenever he came inside of this church in the middle of church services began shooting and deliberately set fire to the chapel there. Now we know that there is extensive search efforts happening at the church location down the road from where we are trying to determine if there's still victims inside of that burned down chapel.

We also know that there's extensive searches happening at the suspected gunman's home. Again, trying to determine a motive. They're also looking for search warrants now to get a hold of his digital footprint, to see if that enlightens anything about his mindset before this tragedy happened -- Jessica.

DEAN: All right, Leigh Waldman there on the scene, we are expecting an update from law enforcement at the top of the hour at 8:00 P.M. Eastern time. We'll check back in with you, Leigh, thank you for that reporting.

In D.C., Congress has just days to act or government shutdown will begin just after Tuesday midnight at 12:01 A.M. on Wednesday. Tomorrow, Congressional leaders are set to meet with President Trump at the White House after he canceled a meeting previously scheduled for earlier last week or this week.

House Speaker Mike Johnson wouldn't say whether he and the President will negotiate with Democratic leadership, telling CNN he's not going to get ahead of the president. We are joined now by Democratic Representative Jake Auchincloss of Massachusetts.

Congressman, thanks so much for your time on a Sunday night. We really do appreciate it. I want to start first with where you think things stand tonight and how likely a shutdown is.

[19:40:16]

REP. JAKE AUCHINCLOSS (D-MA): Jessica, good evening. Thanks for having me on. Entirely in Republican's hands, Republicans have The White House, the Senate, the House and they're the ones who are running the government. They're the ones who claim a mandate. They're the ones who need to fund the government.

I'm a Democrat, I don't expect to pass the full Democratic agenda in the minority, obviously, but I do think my party expects that we are going to deliver for the middle class. The middle class spends more than half their budget on housing, health care and taxes combined. Those three sectors under the last nine months have seen enormous inflation, and it is suffocating the middle class.

We are asking for some very simple measures reversing the worst of the Medicaid cuts, giving Congress a vote on the tariffs that have been so inflationary. That would give a little bit more breathing room to the middle class.

DEAN: Yes, and I hear you on all of that. There is, as you noted there -- the priorities you and some of your Democratic colleagues have laid out include reversing those Medicaid cuts, eliminating -- or at least having a vote on Trump's tariffs, releasing the Epstein files, among other things. How realistic is that?

AUCHINCLOSS: All of those things have supermajority support amongst Americans. So it's realistic if the president cares about the opinion of the median American, it's unrealistic if the President is only fixated on his most extreme voters.

CNN recently did a poll I know that showed that actually, the average swing voter thinks Republicans are more extreme than they think Democrats are. And this kind of behavior exemplifies that because the President would rather throw red meat to his base than actually just govern in a common sense way.

Again, not looking for the full Democratic agenda. We are looking to take away the Medicaid cuts that are going to raise health care premiums for all Americans, not just Medicaid beneficiaries, by double digits. We are looking for a vote on the tariffs so that we are not, you know, picking a fight with Canada in a way that raises home prices because of lumber, but instead getting tough on China, very basic stuff.

DEAN: And, okay, if it comes down to the fact that let's say that they're willing to make a deal with you on extending these subsidies, is that acceptable to you, if that's all you get?

AUCHINCLOSS: My focus is on Medicaid in particular. So, the ACA premium tax credit extensions are a separate item. I know that some Democrats have emphasized those. The most nefarious healthcare policy that Republicans have passed have been a series of Medicaid policies that are going to grossly increase uncompensated care in emergency rooms and raise health insurance premiums on all Americans. We have to prevent that premium hike. We have to prevent the hospital closures. We have to prevent the physician shortages and Medicaid cuts are the primary cause of all of those.

DEAN: Okay, and the President has said and we've seen a memo from his administration that if this shutdown does happen, that there could be mass layoffs throughout the federal government. Do you -- does that give you pause? Do you think that's worth it?

AUCHINCLOSS: A shutdown is bad. A shutdown is bad for the country. It's bad for federal employees, but we're not going to negotiate out of fear.

The President, frankly, is going to purge federal employees regardless. We've seen it at Health and Human Services. We've seen it in the Department of Defense, we've seen it at the Department of Homeland Security. And in fact, one of the things that we have asked for is for the President to increase funding and staffing for law enforcement issues at the Department of Justice and through grants to local law enforcement agencies.

So, you know, we know how this President feels about the civil service and how much he wants to politicize it. That is not a flex that's going to get us to flinch.

DEAN: How confident are you in your leadership being in the House? That's Hakeem Jeffries, but also Chuck Schumer leading the Senate Democrats will be in that meeting. How confident are you in them?

AUCHINCLOSS: Hakeem has my confidence. Hakeem knows where the Democrats are in the House of Representatives, which is that we go home every week and we talk to people who are seeing 10 to 15 percent healthcare premium hikes, 10 to 15 percent hikes in their rent and they were promised when Donald Trump took office that he was going to lower prices on day one, the exact opposite has happened.

Ground beef costs more now than it ever has in real terms. We are focused on getting some core economic wins for the middle class.

DEAN: All right, before I let you go, I do also want to ask you about, obviously, you have been quite involved in Foreign Affairs, you sit on various committees that oversee a lot of this. The President is going to be meeting with the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, at The White House tomorrow. How much leverage do you think the president has to get this peace plan over the finish line?

[19:45:02]

AUCHINCLOSS: Significant, although less than he had prior to the strike on Iran, which is why when the President struck Iran's nuclear sites, I said before he made that decision that if he were truly statesman like, what he would do is one, ask Congress for authority to strike Iran; two, do it; but three, demand from Netanyahu that in exchange for that strike against Iran that he architects an end game in Gaza with the Arab league.

Regrettably, the President did not do that. And so, now he has less leverage over the Prime Minister. But if he works with and through the Arab League and pressures both the prime minister and critically, most importantly, Hamas, I do think peace is possible. I saw a synopsis of that 21-point plan that's circulating. I can't speak to the authenticity of that synopsis, but if what I saw is accurate, its reasonable. The core question, though, of course is, how do you get Hamas to release the hostages and accede to that deal?

DEAN: Yes, all right, Massachusetts Congressman Jake Auchincloss, we really do appreciate your time, thanks.

AUCHINCLOSS: You're welcome.

DEAN: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. We've got more news for you when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:50:39]

DEAN: Harvard has become ground zero in America's culture wars during President Trump's second term, his administration has launched multiple tax attacks on Harvard's funding, trying to pressure the school to get rid of all diversity initiatives when it comes to admitting students and hiring faculty.

CNN's Omar Jimenez takes a detailed look in tonight's edition of "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jessica.

Yes, when you think of showdowns, especially in the education world, it really doesn't get bigger than this. We are talking about one of the world's most prestigious and powerful universities, up against arguably the world's most powerful government, and the implications of what happens from this could be felt for a very long time.

Now, the premise that the Trump administration has used to go after Harvard is antisemitism. We just heard, though, from a judge, a federal judge, that said that the Trump administration isn't really on solid ground on that front, and what I mean by that is the judge said that the administration needed to reinstate the over $2 billion in federal funding that had been frozen on those antisemitism grounds because the judge says that the record makes it difficult to conclude anything other than the Trump administration using antisemitism as a smokescreen for a targeted, ideologically motivated assault on the country's premier universities.

That said, the Trump administration has said they will appeal. But bottom line, even though millions of dollars is starting to flow back into some of this research already, this is research that was abruptly paused, and some of it can't just be resumed because weeks, months later, money starts to trickle back in. We explored that in some of this documentary, take a look.

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JIMENEZ (voice over): As Harvard's lawyers battled to restore more than two billion dollars' worth of federal funds for science, tuberculosis researcher Dr. Sarah Fortune was scrambling along with other scientists at Harvard School of Public Health, to figure out how and if she could continue potentially life-saving research.

DR. SARAH FORTUNE, CHAIR OF IMMUNOLOGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES AT HARVARD CHAN SCHOOL: T.B. is the leading infectious cause of death in the world. We are trying to understand drug resistance in T.B. We're trying to understand immune protection from T.B., and were trying to understand how to diagnose T.B. better.

The contract that was cut was a seven-year contract roughly worth eight million dollars a year. That funded a little work at Harvard. But probably 85 percent of the funding went to other institutions. We, our consortium, actually of 21 labs at 14 institutions and that money just stopped. And for us importantly, there were research animals that were supported on the grants, which is like a half a million dollars. We gave serious thought to euthanizing the animals.

We luckily didn't have to do that because a philanthropic donor stepped forward. We should not have to count on philanthropic donors stepping forward to save research animals. In a research system that is as sophisticated as the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And so, when you talk to those in more of the research based positions at a place like Harvard, that's really what's at stake here.

Now, one of the more interesting things I heard outside of that department, just talking to students and other professors, is one -- this dynamic of an unlikely alliance, and by that, I mean this documentary picks up right after October 7th, and the shockwaves of that were felt immediately on campuses like Harvard. It caused a lot of unrest, a lot of division in some cases.

And while that hasn't totally gone away, one student told me that when the Trump administration started targeting them, it created, in a sense, this common enemy, something to say, well, hey, we have our own battles here, but who is this other person trying to come in and tell us how we should fight our own battles? So, I thought that was really interesting.

Another interesting aspect is one of the students we spoke to said he actually thinks there is a very good conservative student body on campus there, but he says it's really the professor ranks that is in need of reform. And then the final thing is that an international student told us that no matter how this fight with the Trump administration ends, one of the lasting impacts for them is going to be fear that visas could be revoked at any moment, that at any moment, the Trump administration could decide to try and ban international students, as they tried to do earlier this year, but that was shot down by a judge. And he says those are the types of conversations that are already starting to reverberate, at least among his friends around the globe.

A lot of dynamics to watch here. We get into all of it. We try to get into all of it, I should say but I'm really excited for you all to take a look -- Jessica.

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DEAN: All right, Omar, thank you. And be sure to tune in. It's an all new episode of "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper, "The United States Versus Harvard." It airs tonight at 10:00 P.M. Eastern and Pacific, only here on CNN.

Still ahead, tonight, we're continuing to track breaking developments on a deadly mass shooting at a Michigan Church. We are expecting another update from police at the top of the hour. We're going to bring it to you. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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