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Gaza Peace Talks To Continue In Egypt; Fifth Day Of Government Shutdown; Rep. Josh Gottheimer (D-NJ) Is Interviewed About The Government Shutdown And The New Gaza Peace Talks; Trump Deployed CA National Guard Troops To Oregon; Local Health Departments Brace For Impact Of Government Shutdown; FEMA Abruptly Holds Back Disaster Grant Money. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired October 05, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

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UNKNOWN: Let's go, come on.

UNKNOWN: Oh, it's nice and salty. From the (inaudible) and the clams.

UNKNOWN: Look at that.

UNKNOWN: Mm-hmm. Come on.

UNKNOWN: Welcome to our world, Tony.

UNKNOWN: It's not going to get better than this.

TONY SHALHOUB, ACTOR: No.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. It's delicious.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Yum. Okay. I'm getting for that one. The new CNN Original Series, "Tony Shalhoub: Breaking Bread" premieres tonight at 9:00 only on CNN. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The "CNN Newsroom" continues with Jessica Dean right now.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You're in the "CNN Newsroom." Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean here in New York and on the eve of new ceasefire talks between Israel and Hamas, President Trump telling CNN Hamas faces, quote, "complete obliteration" if it refuses to give up power in Gaza. His comment, part of a text conversation with our Jake Tapper, who asked what would happen if Hamas insisted on staying in power.

Delegations from Hamas, Israel and the U.S. are now headed to Egypt for the ceasefire negotiations that do start tomorrow. Let's bring in Kevin Liptak who's joining us now from Norfolk, Virginia. The president speaking right now behind him. Kevin, President Trump is calling his own plan an amazing deal that needs no flexibility. What else is he saying today?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, and you get this sense from the president that he is optimistic that this deal will reach the finish line, but he is also aware of just how fragile this arrangement actually is. And he does seem to be acknowledging that there are details that remain to be worked out. That's part of the reason why he's dispatching two top officials, Steve Witkoff, his Middle East envoy, and Jared Kushner, his son-in-law, to Cairo, where these discussions are taking place to ensure that this gets across the finish line.

And it was interesting listening to the president speak here in Norfolk. You know, ordinarily the president is not shy about talking about his efforts to bring peace to various conflicts around the world. The president here really only made passing reference to this, saying that he didn't want to talk too much about it, essentially suggesting that he didn't want to jinx this becoming successful.

And that was sort of a tune of what we heard from the Secretary State Marco Rubio today saying that the deal was not yet across the finish line, that work remains to be done. He heard him saying that they want to see this happen very fast and that if it doesn't, the entire deal could become imperiled. And so you do get the impression from officials that they very much think that this is going to happen. They're very much optimistic that the deal that the president seems to have brokered will be the one that finally brings peace to Gaza, but acknowledging that there are some steps to be done before that's the reality.

And it's interesting here in Norfolk, obviously this is the world's largest naval installation, and that conflict is somewhat close at hand. You know, we're standing right next to the USS Harry Truman. That is a ship that was recently deployed to the Red Sea to battle the Houthi rebels. That conflict essentially sort of a fall on effect of the war in Gaza. I think we do have the sound of the president talking about this in passing. Let's listen to what he said.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We're putting out -- we're putting out a lot of fires. Maybe some of you will be angry. You'll say, what's he doing? We want to fight. You know what? If we can solve them the way I'm solving them, we solve seven. We have another one that's taken 3000 years and we're pretty close, but I don't want to talk about it until it's done.

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LIPTAK: Now, otherwise, today was really about the Navy. It was about the optics of naval sort of might. The president was on the USS George H.W. Bush looking at naval submarines, at ships. He flew here, landed on the aircraft carrier to the tune of the Top Gun theme song. The President very much embracing the optics of being commander-in-chief today, but certainly it is this outstanding conflict that he very much still wants to get solved. Jessica?

DEAN: All right, Kevin Liptak with the latest, traveling with the president there in Virginia, thank you. And from here in the U.S. to the Middle East, we have all angles on this story. CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson is in Egypt, where of course, negotiations will begin tomorrow. Nic, we'll get to you in just a second. Let's start with Jeremy Diamond who is live in Tel Aviv. Jeremy, part of President Trump's proposal includes an immediate end to the bombing of Gaza. That has yet to happen. Where do things stand from where you sit tonight?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right. The Israeli military has said that it has shifted to a defensive posture inside of the Gaza Strip, but that doesn't mean that they have stopped carrying out artillery shelling and airstrikes in Gaza altogether. We have been speaking with residents inside of Gaza who have said they've reported a decrease in Israeli strikes today.

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But according to local hospitals, at least 22 Palestinians have been killed on Sunday alone. And this is as the Israeli prime minister sat down tonight with the negotiating delegation that he has authorized to travel to Egypt tomorrow to engage in these negotiations and to try and turn President Trump's 20-point plan to end the war in Gaza and secure the release of all 48 hostages into a realistic plan that can actually be implemented on the ground. Those indirect talks indeed set to start tomorrow in Sharm el-Sheikh.

What is clear though is that despite all of the optimism and the sense of momentum, the sense that something really is different this time, and indeed it truly does feel different, there are still some major, major sticking points that need to be resolved. Several among them include the lines to which Israeli forces would need to withdraw during that release of hostages and subsequent to that. The map that President Trump has already put out represents some of the deepest lines of Israeli control inside Gaza that have ever been proposed to expect Hamas to push back on that.

And then of course, there is this major question of disarmament, which Hamas has yet to actually address publicly. Israel and the United States say that it is a requirement that Hamas must disarm in order for this war to end. And the big picture question here is really whether Hamas will actually agree to release these 48 hostages upfront without the entire 20-point plan having been finalized and agreed to between these two sides.

We know of course that in the past Hamas has sought ironclad guarantees from the United States and from others that this war will actually end if they indeed they do release all of the hostages. And so, it's clear that despite the progress and the sense of optimism there are a lot of actual details that need to be resolved and we'll get a better sense of how that is looking once these indirect negotiations begin tomorrow.

DEAN: All right, Jeremy, thank you from Tel Aviv. Let's go now to Cairo, where Nic Robertson is standing by. And Nic, here we are on the eve of these negotiations getting underway. Set the scene for us and the mood there.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: You know, part of the scene has been set by those Arab and Muslim nations that sat down on the margins of the U.N. General Assembly a week or so back with President Trump and listened to his 21-point plan, signed off on his 21-point plan, it became a 20-point plan. But they've put out a joint statement today, that's the UAE, it's Qatar, it's Saudi Arabia, it's Jordan, it's Pakistan, it's Indonesia, it's Turkey, a joint statement saying that they welcome Hamas's initial steps, but they are saying that there needs to be immediate follow through progress on the discussions and all the other issues.

They say that this is a moment where there can be a comprehensible and a sustainable ceasefire. But it's not clear really what pressure that they can actually put on the leadership of Hamas who are in this position now as Jeremy was outlining. They are in a position of needing to or be expected to hand over all the hostages, which all along have been their point of leverage, their point of leverage that ensures they get what they want out of the talks, not just the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, that that is a framework of agreement for that, but their political future, their future inside of Gaza, their future holding or not holding weapons.

All of that, this has been -- the hostages have been their leverage, so they get that. So if they give up all the hostages, it's an act of faith that through these past two years of negotiations and ongoing war, with the costs of so many lives, they're on the cusp of now being -- having this choice to take a step of faith that they haven't taken before. So it will, if they were to do it, would be a monumental step and hard to see how that could come about without some quite protracted negotiations. Jessica?

DEAN: Yeah, certainly. Jeremy, thank you to you in Tel Aviv. Nic Robertson, big thank you to you in Cairo as well. We really appreciate that reporting. We're joined now by CNN political and global affairs analyst and Axios correspondent, Barak Ravid. Barak, always good to see you. Really great to have you on this Sunday night as we head into what is going to be a critical week. The talk's obviously starting tomorrow. Here we are on the eve of the -- we're very close to the second anniversary of the October 7th attacks. As everyone gets ready to meet up in Egypt tomorrow, where Nic was just reporting from, what are you hearing from the different sides here?

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYS: Hi Jessica, good to be with you again. What I hear is that there's quite a lot of optimism in the White House at the moment, about the ability to continue on pushing both parties, Israel and Hamas, towards a deal. The mediators, Egypt, Qatar, also Turkey, are pushing Hamas very hard.

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President Trump is pushing the Israelis pretty hard. On the Israeli side, there's a lot of skepticism on the one hand, especially within the Israeli negotiation team. Netanyahu who was more optimistic yesterday, today sounded a bit more careful. But I think Everyone are going into this round of negotiations that will start tomorrow in Cairo with a lot of motivation to get a deal. That's at least my feeling from talking to all the parties. There's a lot of will on each -- on every party to try and get a deal this week.

DEAN: Barak, why now? Why is this happening now?

RAVID: I think uh it all started obviously in my opinion, at least, and from the people I talk to, with the failed Israeli strike on Qatar, on Hamas leaders in Qatar. I think that point was just too much for too many people, both in Washington and capitals in the region and I think people saw that this is one bridge too far and that this war is escalating to places nobody really wants.

And I think that at that point the White House realize especially Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, Trump's own voice, they realized that that was the point to convince the president to put a plan on the table for the first time since the war started. And I think what President Trump did is something that President Biden did not do. President Trump both put a plan on the table and put serious pressure on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to stop the war.

We are now, I think more than 48 hours into a ceasefire in Gaza that President Trump forced Benjamin Netanyahu into with one post on Truth Social. This is, to me at least, extremely significant. And it shows that Trump has a lot of leverage on Netanyahu. And I think what changed is that in the last two weeks President Trump decided to start using this leverage that he has on Netanyahu to end this war.

DEAN: And Hamas' response to this proposal was conditional. They did say that they would agree to release the hostages but they did not mention disarmament. What are you hearing about that piece of all of this?

RAVID: So, two things. First, I think what the focus is now on the first several points in President Trump's 20-point plan. And what we're going to see this week is very focused on several specifics. One, the release of hostages. Two, the release of Palestinian prisoners, including 250 Palestinian prisoners who are serving life sentences for killing Israelis. This is extremely significant both for Hamas. It's a huge achievement, and it's extremely difficult for Israel to go and do this, release those people that have tons, gallons of Israeli blood on their hands, that's number two.

Number three, an Israeli withdrawal from parts of Gaza, initial withdrawal, that would be quite significant and obviously the end of the war. I think Hamas realize and I think the White House made it clear to them that once they release the hostages the war is over because Netanyahu will not have a pretext to continue the war. Israeli society cares about the hostages. It wants the hostages out.

There will not be -- there is not a lot of support to this war right now within the Israeli society. When the hostages are back home, there'll be close to zero support for continuing this war. And I think this is what the White House has been telling Hamas, and I think this is what Hamas has realized. So that's gonna be the focus the next few days on those points. Everything else about the future will be negotiated later.

And about the disarmament and demilitarization, when you go and talk to Hamas people, what they tell you is very nuanced but very interesting. They say, we will not disarm, we will not give up on our weapons, but we will, we are ready to give up on our heavy weapons, on the missiles, on the tunnels, on the anti-tank missiles, on the rockets. Those are the things that we're ready to give to whatever Arab security force will be in Gaza. Okay? But we're not ready to give up on our guns.

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So it's very nuanced, but there's a big difference between Hamas with guns and between Hamas with tunnels, with rockets, with missiles. It's not the same thing.

DEAN: Right. And to your point, there is going to be likely nuance around that. And then there's also the role of these other Middle Eastern countries and chiefly, as you noted, Qatar and its role in all of this. Walk people through the importance of getting these other nations on board with this plan.

RAVID: So I think the Qataris played a crucial role. They also got significantly upgraded security guarantee from the United States, from President Trump, who signed an executive order that is sort of, you know, I'm not saying it's not article -- it's not Article V security guarantee, but it's pretty close. And I think for the Qataris not to deliver Hamas now is close to impossible. It will create them huge problems with the White House that they do not want. But the Qataris were crucial in this whole process. Both the Egyptians who are hosting those talks.

The Egyptians are crucial right now because they are the ones that know the situation on the ground better than anybody else. So they're crucial on A, the issue of the withdrawal maps and B, the issue of the names and the identities of the Palestinian prisoners who will be released. And those are the Egyptians. But there's a third party here, which is Turkey. And when I spoke to President Trump the other day, he told me how President Erdogan of Turkey was instrumental to getting Hamas to where it is right now.

And President Trump called Erdogan on Friday and told him, I did a lot of things for you. Now you need to do this for me. And Erdogan sent his chief of intelligence and his foreign minister to basically tell Hamas, you need to do this now. And I think he had a lot of -- he deserves a lot of credit to where we are right now.

DEAN: All right, Barak Ravid, great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

RAVID: Thank you.

DEAN: Still to come, President Trump appears to sidestep a judge's ruling by ordering dozens of California National Guard troops to Oregon. Well, California's Governor Gavin Newsom is saying as the troops arrive in Oregon tonight. Plus, we are now in day five of a government shutdown. Democrats not

backing down on their demands to keep some health care premiums from rising. And Democratic Congressman Josh Gottheimer is joining us next. You're in the "CNN Newsroom."

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DEAN: We are now in day five of a government shutdown. Both Democrats and Republicans remain adamant it is the other party's fault.

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REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Unfortunately, Republicans are lying because they're losing in the court of public opinion as it relates to what's going on right now.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Let me just start by saying I listened to my friend Hakeem there, and when we used to do debate competitions in high school, they taught us to watch out for the red herring. The red herring is a distraction. Literally everything my friend just said there was unnecessary.

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DEAN: With both sides digging their heels in, there seems to be no end in sight. Right now, Democrats trying to pressure Republicans to extend and enhance federal tax credits that help bring down the cost of health insurance for people who are covered under the Affordable Care Act. Those subsidies are set to expire at the end of the year. And if they don't act, that could hike premiums for millions of Americans. Republicans argue that this debate though, should take place after the government reopens.

So let's bring in Democratic Congressman from New Jersey, Josh Gottheimer. Congressman, thanks so much for being here with us on a Sunday afternoon. We really appreciate it.

REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Thanks for having me.

DEAN: Yeah, it's good to see you. We know the president has threatened massive layoffs to the federal workforce during this shutdown. He even posted, I can't believe the radical left Democrats gave me this unprecedented opportunity. Do you worry that Democrats are giving the Republicans power to do things like this, to gut the federal government during this shutdown?

GOTTHEIMER: No. What I worry about the most, Jessica, as Leader Jeffries said, that you're going to have millions of Americans who will start to receive their notices on November 1st, if not sooner, that their health care is going to go way up. Either they won't be able to afford it or they're going to be suffering under the crush of higher costs and prices on everything already from energy bills to childcare costs to food costs, right.

So adding higher health care premiums, which is what's going to happen if we don't address the Affordable Care Act, these extensions to get deductions on people's premiums, if we don't help them with their premiums, they will face higher health care costs and we don't have any more time to delay.

So that's why we're laying down the law here and why I'm optimistic and Jessica, I remain optimistic that we will work something out. Many of us are talking, Democrats and Republicans in the House and the Senate to figure a way forward here because keeping the government shut down and hurting veterans and families and children and seniors while this government is shut down is not something that people should ever have to put up with.

DEAN: Yeah, I did want to ask you if you were talking to any of your Republican colleagues or Democratic colleagues because honestly, we just listened to a couple clips from leadership on both sides from House Republican leadership, House Democratic leadership, and it seems the same in the Senate. They don't seem to be talking to each other and that seems not a good indicator for getting anything done. What do you think?

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GOTTHEIMER: Well, listen, I can see why our side is incredibly frustrated because they've never really brought us to the table and having any discussions about this. As you said, the president is gleeful that he shut the government down. And there seems to not care that servicemen and women aren't going to get paid. And you're talking about millions of people going to lose their health care. So, you know, that doesn't make any sense to me why he's not concerned about it, but it explains why, you know, we're making it clear that we've got to do something on the Affordable Care Act.

Now, again, the good news is a bunch of us are talking and I think finding areas where we can find agreement and that's going to be the goal here. We've got to get the government reopened. You know, I'm optimistic we'll get it done. It does not do anything except hurt the country to have it shut down. So I remain optimistic and I'm going keep working as I as I do around the clock to just figure out a way forward here.

DEAN: Yeah. And we have this new polling on where people -- who people hold responsible and it's, you know, they hold the Republicans mostly responsible. But I got to be honest with you, it's pretty split between Republicans, Democrats and then people who hold both parties responsible. Do you think this is worth it?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, mean, no one ever looks good in the shutdown. But what's on the line is definitely worth it, in my opinion, right? I think you're talking about, just to put this in perspective, 22 million Americans around the country at the end of this year will face higher health care prices. You're talking about 4 million who will lose their health care altogether because they won't be able to afford it. And that's a huge problem here in Jersey and around the country.

So that's worth fighting for because people are already under so much pressure with the tariff -- the increase of prices on everything from the tariffs plus, right, their healthcare costs, their childcare costs and their energy bills. You add all that up, we've got to figure out a way to make life more affordable for people and to get their costs down, their taxes down.

So from my perspective, this is worth the fight. I know they just want to say, ah, it's not a big deal. I think it is. And I think we can find common ground on this. You know, we're both not going to get everything we want and that's okay. The key here is to find a way forward to make life more affordable for people. I think we can get there. And we should stop pointing fingers and throw mud at each other and just figure out how to get it done.

DEAN: I also want to get your thoughts on this new proposal from President Trump to try to end uh the war in Gaza. I know this is an issue, of course, you have been very outspoken about and that you have covered and you've met with hostage families. You visited Israel most recently, I believe in August, and met with hostage families there. Do you support the president and his team and what they're trying to do right now?

GOTTHEIMER: Absolutely. If we can find a way forward here to get Hamas to lay down their weapons, to get the hostages out. As you know, Jessica, we have 48 still, 20 whom we believe are alive, two Americans who aren't, but whose remains are there. As we're facing two years here since October 7th, we've got to do everything we can to get those hostages out, including, by the way, also making sure we get humanitarian aid in. But Hamas is going to have to -- I know that they've said yes with a lot of asterisks. Those asterisks matter, including, as it was just discussed, laying down arms and making sure that they cannot be -- Hamas cannot be in control after this is over. They cannot be the governing leaders in Gaza.

We need to bring in other Arab nations to help find a way forward in the region. And of course Israel will pull back to the borders. That's all very positive if we can get it done. And I think everybody should do everything they can to make that happen and to find peace. So, yes, I'm supportive of any efforts to make that happen.

DEAN: All right, Congressman Josh Gottheimer, we really appreciate your time very much. Thank you so much.

GOTTHEMIMER: It was great to see you. Thanks.

DEAN: You too. Still to come, tensions rising in Chicago and Portland as the Trump administration pushes forward with its immigration crackdown, the latest move that is now likely to bring a lawsuit from California. You're in the "CNN Newsroom."

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JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oregon Governor Tina Kotek says National Guard troops from California have arrived in her state after a judge said President Trump could not send in National Guard troops from Oregon. The governor has been adamant troops are not needed in her state. This is just one day after the White House says Trump is ordering 300 Illinois National Guard troops to Chicago.

We'll bring in CNN's Rafael Romo here who has been following all of these lines. Tell us more about what has kind of unfolded over the last 24 hours, Rafael.

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jessica, a lot of moving pieces in three different states: Illinois, California, and Oregon. And earlier this afternoon, California Governor Gavin Newsom announced that President Donald Trump is sending National Guard troops from his state to Oregon, a move the governor says he will immediately challenge in court, though Oregon's governor, Tina Kotek, says more than 100 troops have already arrived.

The White House fired back at Newsom, saying that, and I'm quoting here, "President Trump exercised his lawful authority to protect federal assets and personnel in Portland following violent riots and attacks on law enforcement. For once, the California governor should stand on the side of law-abiding citizens instead of violent criminals destroying Portland and cities across the country."

The move comes after President Trump was thwarted in his attempt to deploy the Oregon National Guard to Portland by a federal judge. The president and his administration are framing anti-ICE demonstrations in Democratic-led cities like Los Angeles, Chicago, and Portland as violent protests carried out by -- quote -- "domestic terrorists."

In an interview with Fox News this morning, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem stated without providing evidence that protests and confrontations with federal agents are part of an organized movement funded by gangs, terrorists, and drug cartel members.

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She cited drivers in Chicago who allegedly ran their cars into a vehicle carrying federal agents, prompting one agent to shoot and injure a woman. The Department of Justice announced that two people have been charged in federal court with using their vehicles to assault, impede, and interfere with the work of federal agents in Chicago.

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KRISTI NOEM, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: I've encouraged the governor of Oregon and of Illinois, and that attorney general should go down and spend some time with our ICE officers and with our border patrol officers and encounter the protesters that they do because these individuals are shouting hateful things at them, threatening their families, um, putting their hands on them, and, uh, acts of violence are occurring on a regular basis.

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ROMO: And here's the other side of the story, Jessica. In an interview with CNN earlier today, Illinois Governor JB Pritzker criticized the Trump administration for last week's raid in the city of Chicago featured in a DHS video posted on X this weekend. According to the governor, U.S. citizens, children, and elderly people were detained for hours without cause.

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GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): What kind of a country are we living in? And this -- this -- this raid at this building is emblematic of what ICE and CBP and the president of the United States, Kristi Noem, and Greg Bovino are trying to do. They want mayhem on the ground. They want to create the war zone so that they can send in even more troops. Now, they're claiming they need 300 of Illinois's National Guard.

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ROMO: And finally, Jessica, a Department of Homeland Security spokesperson told CNN that the raid was part of a multi-agency operation that led to the arrest of 37 undocumented immigrants, most of them from Venezuela, but also included people from Mexico, Nigeria, and Colombia. Now, back to you.

DEAN: All right, Rafael Romo with the latest on, again, multiple fronts here. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Coming up, how health departments across the country are hunkering down as the government shutdown threatens to hurt them while also dealing with low staff and the threat of disease outbreaks. More on that one when we come back.

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DEAN: Local health departments are concerned about how the government shutdown could potentially impact funding for staffing and several key programs. This could include WIC that provides low-income pregnant women, new moms, and children under the age of five with food assistance. The federal government provides up to 50% of funding for several programs. And that means the longer the shutdown goes on, the more likely people could begin to see disruptions.

Lori Tremmel Freeman with the National Association of County and City Health Officials is joining us now. Lori, thank you for being here with us. Uh, the next disbursement of federal funding for WIC, which is that food program I was just talking about for mothers and children, is scheduled for October 15th. So, what happens if -- if that's missed?

LORI TREMMEL FREEMAN, CEO, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTY AND CITY HEALTH OFFICIALS: Well, this is one of those programs that is not guaranteed continuation because it uses some discretionary, uh, program dollars to keep it running. So, this particular program is, um, under direct threat because of the government shutdown, which means that something like 6.8 million people that are receiving WIC benefits under the SNAP program, nutritional packages and programs may very well not be able to get their benefits if this goes on.

DEAN: Right. And -- and -- and then that would force them to have to find it in other places, right?

TREMMEL FREEMAN: Well, there isn't a backdrop to this. You know, this is one program. Sixty-eight percent of our health departments at the county and city level run this program out of their health departments. So, it is very much tied to community, um, and community, um, uh, serving communities that are, um, in most need.

And so, these are actual food packages. It's a substantive program that's putting food on the table of these families that might not otherwise get it. There is not a secondary backdrop to actually support this program in any other way. So, this is one of those ones that are immediate, direct hit that we hope we would not see actually materialized from October 15.

DEAN: That actual food would not be handed out and given to those pregnant moms or moms that are breastfeeding and their kids under the age of five. How could the shutdown impact the CDC and the Department of Health at a local level?

TREMMEL FREEMAN: Yes. So, initially, we're not going to see a lot of impact except for those directly-funded programs that might be discretionary dollars. But the longer that time goes on, we will see additional, um, impacts and threats to funding that are -- that is reaching health departments to run critical programs on the ground in communities.

And these are things like -- that we rely on every single day, whether we know it or not. Um, we turn on the faucet, we get a clean water -- glass of water, we go to a restaurant, we're able to eat a meal without getting sick. These are functions of the health department that happen every day.

Um, the types of things that we might see impacted should this go on for a longer period of time would be that things like mobile health clinics, we might not be able to get them deeper into community, providing things like chronic disease screenings, get people into, um -- into, uh, services that they need to prevent additional harms from chronic disease, things like immunization services, vaccination clinics might be canceled ahead of our respiratory virus season.

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Um, these are the practical programs on the ground that rely on the partnership with the federal government to fund.

DEAN: Yeah. And look, a lot of these areas, rural areas are seeing, uh, a lot of their hospitals closing or it's really hard to get access to health care in a lot of parts of the United States. And a lot of these, you talk about these mobile clinics, a lot of these mobile clinics play a really key role in bridging that gap.

TREMMEL FREEMAN: They do. And these are services that are not arbitrary. They're actually intended for people in their communities that might not have another way to access these services. And the health department becomes their way of keeping safe and healthy. And so, when we're not able to provide the security of that partnership that exists between local, county, city health departments, the state health department, the federal arm of our public health system, the whole system becomes shaky and we're less able to guarantee that those services and programs will reach the people that need them most.

DEAN: Yeah. And so, October 15th, obviously, a key date. What are you all doing and -- and -- and how are people preparing for that? Should -- should we get to that point with the shutdown? What are -- what's the message to people out there?

TREMMEL FREEMAN: The local health departments of the country really, um, work hard to ensure that there is, uh, not a gap in the programs and services that they're providing on the ground. That's where the rubber meets the road. That's where the people look to be helped the most.

And our federal government's role in that is not arbitrary. It's a -- it's a defined role in our public health system. We need our federal government operating and strong. We need Congress to actually act to keep our public health system intact and operating and keeping people safe and healthy. And we need them to pass a, you know, budget and one that supports our health on the ground.

Um, what health departments do in preparation for the day when they can't provide those services is prepare the community that they may not be able to have access to those services because there is not a secondary line of defense here. Uh, we rely on this funding as part of our partnership of the public health system and we need it to operate. So, the best that we can do is actually try to prepare our communities for a day when they might not be able to have the same programs and services, and we don't want to have to do that.

DEAN: Yeah. All right, Lori Tremmel Freeman, thank you for your time. We do appreciate you walking us through all that.

TREMMEL FREEMAN: Thank you.

DEAN: Uh-hmm. FEMA is halting the release of millions of dollars to states and towns so they can be ready for disasters like fires and floods. And that's leaving those communities short hundreds of millions of dollars. What the agency is now demanding from the states before they can access those federal funds.

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[17:50:00]

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DEAN: FEMA is abruptly holding back millions of dollars meant to help communities prepare for disasters like hurricanes and earthquakes. CNN's Gabe Cohen shows us how states are responding and what this could mean for your community during the next emergency.

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GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a program that sends out more than $300 million each year to help states and communities prepare for disasters. It funds emergency management staff, trainings, equipment, public education, a whole range of things.

And yet this week, abruptly, states started getting these notices from FEMA saying that they cannot touch that money until they go back and provide an updated tally of their state populations, and they have to factor in recent deportations, and until the Department of Homeland Security decides that those counts are accurate, states are not going to be able to access those funds.

Now, typically, FEMA uses U.S. Census data to determine state populations. And officials inside FEMA told me that instructing states to go back and recount those populations is unprecedented. And there is a lot of concerns that this is just another way for the Trump administration to block states from accessing the funds that they were previously promised.

And I will note that these notices started going out this week just hours after a federal judge had blocked the Trump administration from permanently rerouting hundreds of millions of dollars of very similar Homeland Security grants away from a dozen blue states who had sued over this issue.

Now, DHS has defended its new rule, telling me in a statement -- quote -- "Recent population shifts, including deportations of illegal aliens, create a need for updated data to ensure equitable distribution. This requirement applies to all states and is unrelated to recent federal court rulings."

But right now, states are worried. They cannot figure out how the administration will decide whether these counts are accurate. And for months now, they have already faced countless funding pauses and delays and rule changes to some of these grant programs. This one, just the latest added to the list.

[17:55:00]

An organization that represents emergency managers across the country voiced that concern telling me -- quote -- "These funds are the backbone of local emergency management programs. Without timely access, communities face gaps in readiness that could slow response to disasters and emergencies when every minute counts." Gabe Cohen, CNN, Washington.

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DEAN: Gabe, thank you. America is often compared to a melting pot. But in New Orleans, that pot, full of steaming hot gumbo. And tonight, a new CNN Original Series looks at the cultures that folded together to create New Orleans's iconic cuisine. Don't miss it. It's the first episode of "New Orleans: Soul of a City." It airs tonight at 10:00 only here on CNN. It has been a weekend filled of -- with finger-pointing and blame trading between congressional leaders over the government shutdown that's now in day five. It doesn't look like they're going to be anywhere close to a deal anywhere soon. We're going to speak with one Republican congressman about what it might take to change that.

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