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Trump Tells Reporters Venezuela Would Like To Talk; House To Vote On Whether To Release Epstein Files; Border Patrol Arrested 81 People In North Carolina Immigration Crackdown; Fear Is Prompting Some North Carolina Shops To Close Due To ICE Operations; Trump To Welcome Saudi Crown Prince To The White House, "Prime Minister" Airs Tonight At 9:00 P (ET/PT). Aired 7-8p ET

Aired November 16, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:00]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: This, as we saw the secretary of state just a few moments ago, really in the last hour, designating this cartel a terrorist organization and we've seen increasing tensions there in that area between the U.S. and Venezuela.

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jessica, some really significant comments there. We don't know at this stage what President Trump plans to do in Venezuela. But what we do know is that the U.S. has amassed significant resources, military resources in the region. We know that President Trump has authorized the CIA to operate in Venezuela, and we know that President Trump has been briefed by his team multiple times in recent days to discuss options for a path forward.

Those options include the possibility of airstrikes on military and government facilities, as well as drug trafficking routes, as well as what could be a more direct attempt to oust the country's president, Nicolas Maduro. But President Trump moments ago making clear that there might be a diplomatic option here as well. We saw Secretary of State Marco Rubio announce a few moments ago that the State Department will designate Cartel de los Soles as a foreign terrorist organization.

That group is headed by Nicolas Maduro. The president was asked whether that might provide the legal justification for some of the strikes in Venezuela, and he said it allows us to do that. But we haven't said we're going to do that. The president went on to say we may be having some discussions with Maduro and that Venezuela would like to talk. And he said, what does that mean, you tell me, I don't know what it means, and we'll see what it what happens.

Again, some strategic ambiguity there, perhaps by design by President Trump. He also said that he would like to keep Congress involved. The president went on to say that he doesn't believe he needs Congress's authorization to move forward, and he doesn't like them to leak. But he does like to keep them abreast of what is going on. So very notable, interesting comments from President Trump there as he prepares to make his way back to Washington after a weekend here in Florida.

DEAN: Yes. And Betsy, as we're looking ahead to this week as he leaves Florida, obviously Venezuela top of mind as you just walked us through, he also has a meeting coming up with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, who's going to be coming to Washington. Walk us through what's also on tap as we look ahead to the days to come.

KLEIN: Well, that is certainly going to be a major meeting. It is not officially a state visit because the crown prince is not officially the head of state of Saudi Arabia, but they will certainly be rolling out some red carpets for MBS in the coming days. A major moment to watch and the first time that he will be welcomed back to Washington in the aftermath of the death of the "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

Separately, we are going to see the president deal with the fallout of cracks in his MAGA base. We saw him answer that question on Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who he described as Marjorie "traitor" Greene. Earlier this weekend he announced that he was rescinding his endorsement as she has publicly criticized the White House for not doing enough to focus on affordability issues.

The president, she believes, is spending too much time on those relationships abroad and conflicts abroad. She is also one of four House Republicans that is going to be pushing for a vote as soon as this week on releasing the full tranche of Epstein files from the Justice Department. Now Thomas Massie, the congressman from Kentucky, also a Republican who is among those four House Republicans pushing for this, says that he believes that there is going to be a groundswell more than 100 House Republicans crossing -- and crossing the president to vote for this.

That is going to be something that we will be watching very closely in the coming days. The president has dismissed that as a hoax. He's also taken aim at Greene, as we saw once more. Greene has said that she is facing personal threats to her own security. The president was asked about that, and he said, let me consult my notes here, that he doesn't -- he's not concerned about her safety.

Really interesting comments and there will be a lot to watch in the coming days.

DEAN: Certainly. All right. Betsy Klein for us in Florida, thank you so much.

And we are joined now by former U.S. ambassador to Venezuela, James Story. He served during the first Trump administration, staying on in his role for part of the Biden administration as well.

Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for being here with us. We just heard from President Trump in the last few minutes that, in his words, that Maduro and Venezuela have reached out, that they want to talk. It's unclear exactly what that means. He wouldn't be any more specific at that -- at this point. But what might that mean and where would you kind of say we are at this moment in time when it comes to the U.S. and Venezuela?

JAMES B. STORY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO VENEZUELA: Well, thanks again for having me tonight, Jessica. What I can say is that certainly the pressure that the president has put by having these military resources in the Caribbean have led the Maduro regime to reaching out.

[19:05:04]

But I would say -- and as a diplomat, as a former diplomat, I would say it's always preferable to negotiate. The fact of the matter is, in July of last year, the people of Venezuela voted overwhelmingly against Maduro to pull him out of power. So hopefully any negotiation is about his exit from that country.

DEAN: So that brings me to this follow-up question. Do you think that ultimately a big piece of this is regime change, that that's what the president is getting at?

STORY: Well, the president has laid out an argument that drugs coming north are a direct threat to the United States. Those drugs originating in Colombia but transiting through Venezuela. And they're being transited and transported with the help of the Venezuelan government and the Cartel de los Soles, of which Maduro would be the titular head.

So he's laid out a pretty strong argument here that the narcotics -- that the government, let's say in Venezuela, is really a narcotics trafficking organization, I imagine that the president is thinking through his options on how he can continue to put additional pressure on the Maduro regime, and to attack additional narcotics trafficking targets, perhaps within the country.

DEAN: And to that point, again, just within the last hour or so, Secretary of State Marco Rubio saying there are plans to designate the Cartel de los Soles as a foreign terrorist organization. Just reminding everyone it is, they say, headed by Maduro. So how significant would you say that is?

STORY: I think it's something that's a little bit different. It's not particularly -- it's more political than anything else. The organization has already been designated. Maduro himself has already been indicted. Those around him have been indicted. The government has been sanctioned. So saying that they're a foreign terrorist organization perhaps opens up the aperture a little bit for the president. But I really don't think it's much -- it doesn't give additional authorities necessarily to the president.

DEAN: All right, Mr. Ambassador, please stay with us. I want to bring in my colleague for just a moment. Stefano Pozzebon, who's in Caracas, and get some reaction from you there on the ground.

We're hearing from President Trump, Stefano, that Maduro and Venezuela do want to talk. What is the indications you're getting on the ground? Have you heard anything around that?

STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, not exactly given that the moment that remarks from the president were just 10 minutes ago. What I can tell you my experience is that this will look like music to the ears of Maduro, frankly, and probably Ambassador Story can also confirm, given that he has been involved in several negotiations with the Maduro government.

The government of Venezuela has stayed in place in the last 12 years. Exactly because they are very good at announcing negotiations, entering in negotiations and discussions with the -- with several administrations. We've had Norwegians, we have Qataris, we had U.S. administrations from both the Republican Party and Democratic Party, all involved in trying to broker what is effectively an end to this difficult situation that we are living through every single day in Venezuela.

And that solution starts with making changes at the top of these nations. I think that Maduro will be very happy with the idea that Trump is now open to talk. It's not exactly the -- like, I don't think that it would be surprising to hear that Maduro has reached out to the -- to the president and to the White House more in general. We know that they have been in touch in the past, especially with the special envoy, Richard Grenell. And I think that both Trump and Maduro know that Richard Grenell is just a phone call away from both of them.

We know that Trump and Grenell speak very, very often on the phone, and we know that Maduro has Grenell's ears if the president would authorize it. And just yesterday, by the way, Jessica, this is what Maduro said when he was trying to appease the United States. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: May be having some discussions with Maduro and we'll see how that turns out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POZZEBON: I think that was the wrong sound. But however, even yesterday, the president here, Nicolas Maduro, was saying that he wanted to bridge peace with the United States. He wanted to broker a peace and intent and avoid an escalating war. So I think that the remarks from President Trump up in Florida in the last half an hour will be definitely very, very well-heard and well-received here in Caracas.

I honestly expect, Jessica, that Richard Grenell will receive a couple of phone calls from Venezuela just like as we speak.

[19:10:00]

DEAN: OK, Stefano, thank you for that update. We really appreciate it.

I want to go back to Ambassador Story who is still with us.

Thank you for sticking with us. We did just want to touch base with Stefano down there in Venezuela. He mentioned Ric Grenell a few times. What do you think about his potential involvement in something like this? Or how these talks, maybe as someone who has participated in talks similar to these before as a diplomat, how these might proceed? What this -- how these might get set up?

STORY: Well, Stefano is exactly right. There have been any number of negotiations with the Maduro regime -- between the Maduro regime and the Democratic opposition in the country, and this has always been a way for Maduro to kick the can down the road. He kind of punches a hole in the balloon of popular discontent. There's a thought that negotiations will lead somewhere. And then they -- and then they don't.

The last set of negotiations actually created the circumstances through which there was a primary for the opposition, the democratic opposition, and then eventually a candidate and won the presidency. So with Maria Corina Machado having won the primary. And then what happens is, after an election the regime stays in power.

I would hope, as a diplomat I always believe that we should be having discussions. There should be negotiations. But these I would structure very clearly that these are around recognizing the results of the last election that took place in July of last year. And I think that means that this is a -- this will be a negotiation that is not about kicking the can down the road, but rather restoring democracy to the country.

DEAN: All right, more to come. Ambassador James Story, we're glad we had you tonight. Thank you very much for being here.

STORY: Thank you for having me.

DEAN: And still ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM, just moments ago, President Trump was asked about his public falling out with Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. We'll have more about that and what he said after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:16:44]

DEAN: The House is poised to vote on releasing the Jeffrey Epstein files as soon as Tuesday. A discharge petition has collected enough signatures to force House Speaker Mike Johnson to hold that vote, despite the president's repeated attempts to pressure Republicans, including Marjorie Taylor Greene, to vote against the bill.

The Georgia Republican appeared in an exclusive interview with CNN this morning on "STATE OF THE UNION," saying she didn't understand why the president is fighting against the files being released and that the president's harsh words are putting her life in danger.

Here's what the president just said about his public feud with Taylor Greene just a few moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Marjorie "traitor" Greene, I don't think her life is in danger. I don't think, frankly, I don't think anybody cares about her. (END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And if that vote passes Tuesday, it will then move on to the Senate.

Let's bring in CNN senior political analyst and Bloomberg opinion columnist Ron Brownstein.

Ron, it's good to see you. Look, this weekend has continued to just add to the public fallout between Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene, which is a political food fight. But what does it say to you more broadly that those two are now so publicly on the outs?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, she is clearly on, you know, some kind of journey. You know, she has certainly in her criticism of Trump over the last few months at times it's -- most times it's been from the right. The argument that he's not America first enough on things like the H-1B visas or aid to Ukraine. But there's also been criticism effectively from the left on the Affordable Care Act, the expiration of the Affordable Care Act subsidies.

I mean, there seems to be, I mean, there would be reason for some kind of personal animus on her part. She wanted to run statewide in Georgia and the White House, you know, clearly was discouraging of that. But that cannot explain everything that's going on here. And I don't think we know entirely what has precipitated. As Robert Draper, who I admire a lot, an author and, you know, a staff writer at "The New York Times" magazine who's written extensively about her, thinks she has just grown disillusioned with what she sees around her in Congress in the Republican Party.

She's not a Democrat. She's not someone who's going to ally with Democrats. But what she is learning is what every other Republican has learned, I think, is that loyalty is a one way street for President Trump. And as soon as you demonstrate any independence, any prior service is immediately erased from the blackboard and he's calling you Marjorie "traitor" Greene. You know, I think it's just kind of a reminder to everyone what they are dealing with in the Republican Party at this point.

DEAN: Yes. And he also said just a little bit ago that he's negotiating with lawmakers. He said some Democrats, though he didn't want to name names, ahead of this vote, that could happen. That's been promised on extending these Obamacare subsidies. He says -- I thought this was interesting. His whole plan was about sending people money directly so they can buy their own insurance. What did you make of all of that?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. You know, every Republican alternative to the Affordable Care Act has rested on the same idea, going back to the bill that Trump supported and that passed the House in 2017.

[19:20:02]

And the core idea is to allow insurance companies to, again, segregate out the healthy from the sick on the theory that that will allow them to lower premiums for people who are healthy. I mean, the central artery of the Affordable Care Act is pooling risk. And the Republican alternatives have all been about undoing that because you can lower premiums for people who are younger and healthier if you separate them again from people who are older and have greater health needs.

The problem is the older people with greater health needs will pay vastly more in premiums if they can get coverage at all. That's the core of the idea of protecting people with preexisting conditions. What the president is talking about today is just another way of separating out the healthy from the sick. If you send money to everyone directly to do with what they want in these health savings accounts, people who are younger and healthier will either not buy coverage at all and pay out of pocket and keep some of the money the government sends them, or they will buy bare bones policies with that money that will also allow them to spend less.

And once again, you will end up with older and sicker people locked into an insurance system where the risk pool is just getting out of control and costs are just exploding. The paradox, of course, in all of this is that the Republican Party in the Trump era is heavily dependent on blue-collar voters, older blue collar voters, who tend to have the biggest health needs. There is no one, none of the Republican alternatives going back to 2017 and certainly this one can avoid the conclusion that it imposes the biggest costs on their own voters.

DEAN: That is kind of the irony of all of this, isn't it?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

DEAN: Yes. That you point out and, and just this idea, too, Democrats certainly want to push this issue of health care as they head into the midterms. I mean, they really believe this is a winning issue for them. And the Republicans have yet, to your point, to come up with a meaningful alternative to what currently exists.

BROWNSTEIN: Well, first of all, yes. Well, first of all, they're building on what they did in the one big beautiful bill, which is the biggest cuts in Medicaid that have ever been passed. And again, who is on Medicaid, particularly inside the coast? It is, you know, the people who were hit by the Republican cuts in the reconciliation bill are the working poor who were made eligible for Medicaid under the ACA.

Those are predominantly non-college working people, working age people inside the coast. They're predominantly white and they are, you know, by all indications, in those places, mostly Trump voters. So you start with that as a baseline, 10 million or 11 million people losing coverage because of that. If the ACA subsidies expire, another four million to five million people, again, mostly in that same income class, lose coverage, 20 more million will have their health care premiums go up.

And Democrats see this really as exhibit A in the broader argument they want to make in '26, which is you elected Donald Trump to solve your cost of living problems, and all he's done is further enrich his wealthy friends and, you know, obsess about his own kind of priorities, whether it's launching prosecutions against his political adversaries or tearing down the East Wing of the White House.

If anything, his agenda, they want to argue, is making your cost of living worse with tariffs and in particular these health care cuts. So, you know, the shutdown ended in a way that I thought was very damaging to Democrats, compounded their image of weakness. But it did compound the same time the Republican problem on health care, which as we've talked about before, is one of the few issues on which the public still consistently says they trust Democrats more than Republicans. And they are looking at massive premium increases that could become a real political albatross for them.

DEAN: All right. Ron Brownstein, good to see you. Thanks for that.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks for having me.

DEAN: Up next, we're going to talk with the state lawmaker who represents Charlotte, North Carolina, as the Trump administration's immigration crackdown nets dozens of arrests, sparking fear in the community and prompting some businesses there to close their doors.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:28:25

DEAN: Federal agents are on the ground in North Carolina. Border Patrol officers arrived in the Charlotte area yesterday to continue their immigration crackdown. President Trump's top Border Patrol official, Gregory Bovino, says 81 people were arrested in five hours. Hundreds gathered to protest the operation yesterday in Charlotte Park.

North Carolina State Representative Jordan Lopez joins us now.

Thank you so much for being here with us. We appreciate it. City officials released a statement saying that these operations are, in their words, causing unnecessary fear and uncertainty in our community. What would you say to your residents? What are you saying to your residents right now who are afraid?

JORDAN LOPEZ (D), NORTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: I'm telling them that as their state representative, but I've been joined by other elected officials throughout Mecklenburg County, throughout the city of Charlotte, have felt support from elected officials across the state of North Carolina. I'm telling them all that we are standing with you and that we want to ensure everybody feels like this community can be their home.

We are walking the streets. I have been out in the Central Avenue Corridor, which is a core part of the district that they have been operating in. They being the Border Patrol, making sure that people can see us as leaders, being present in their communities, trying our best to document what we see and otherwise just showing up for folks. And that's what I'm hearing from my constituents, is that they just want to see their leaders show up for them. DEAN: Yes. And we know that several businesses in the Charlotte area

have closed because they're concerned about what's going on. They just think that's the safest thing to do. So in addition to the human piece of this, there is the business piece of this. What do you -- what do you know about that? And are you concerned other local businesses may follow suit?

[19:30:08]

LOPEZ: I absolutely am concerned about that. The small business community is like the backbone of the Charlotte area and when you have so many businesses that are having to close, especially when we are already in a time where the economy is not great these businesses are already feeling the squeeze and a variety of other ways now, when their customer base is feeling like they can't leave the house, or their employees themselves feel like it may not be safe to go out and be present at work.

It definitely has a ripple effect throughout the entire community, and its already a fragile community at that. With respect to our small business economy, and so, definitely concerned about it and we have been speaking with business leaders throughout the weekend who were in their businesses, place of business when CBP had rolled up on their property and apprehended individuals, or they sat out front of their business and otherwise just kind of posted up there for a while.

So, then what do you think that does to people's willingness to go when we know that they're not exactly going after specific people? It's kind of a grab first, ask questions later approach, and that's damaging to everybody.

DEAN: And so, that's the other piece of this I wanted to ask you about, which is the Trump administration has said this is all about an immigration crackdown. This is about crime and safety. This is about getting criminals out of neighborhoods, in this case out of Charlotte. Do you feel like that's needed right now, as someone who knows that area? Do you think that there is the need for federal law enforcement to be there, going through with these arrests?

LOPEZ: So, as a state lawmaker, I will say I understand the importance of enforcing the law. But how you enforce the law matters and the way that the Trump administration has decided to enforce the law with the city, with respect to the city of Charlotte or Chicago or Los Angeles? No, we do not need that in our community. And if anything, it erodes years of trust that have been built between the Latino and Hispanic Community and other minority communities across the city, and CMPD or the Sheriff's Department, because that's just law enforcement to them.

And they're seeing the worst of it at the moment. So, no, I do not believe that it would be necessary. We saw the report from Chicago. Was that Operation Midway Blitz, where only a small percentage, I think it was less than five percent of the several hundred individuals that were apprehended during that operation actually had criminal records. They're going after everybody that they can get their hands on.

DEAN: All right, North Carolina State Representative Jordan Lopez, thanks for your time tonight.

LOPEZ: Thank you for having me on.

DEAN: Still ahead, a crucial moment for a key international relationship. What will be at stake when President Trump welcomes the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia to the White House?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:37:25]

DEAN: The White House is pulling out all the stops as it prepares for a visit this week by Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. A U.S. official says the two sides have been working to finalize agreements on defense and security cooperation, including major new purchases of American made fighter jets.

President Trump also sees an opportunity with the Gaza ceasefire holding for Saudi Arabia to normalize its ties with Israel. We're joined now by CNN political and global affairs analyst Barak Ravid. He's also a correspondent for AXIOS.

Barak, good to see you. Look, this is going to be a big meeting and obviously the president would very much like to see Saudi join the Abraham Accords. What are you hearing about these negotiations?

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Good evening Jessica, well, I think, it's a pretty big visit first because, we remember how in 2018, during Trump's first term, Mohammad bin Salman was at least according to U.S. intelligence was behind the murder of Jamal Khashoggi at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul, something that turned them into a pariah, in the U.S. and around the world.

And only when Joe Biden became president, the relations between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia started to unfreeze. And when Trump came into office for the second time, Mohammad bin Salman was already, rehabilitated world leader and actually, this visit to Washington is his biggest validation, as a world leader. And, I think this might be the most interesting and important part of this whole visit before we even start talking about its contents.

DEAN: Yes, because, I mean, do you think that, that will even come up with the President? It seems like they will move right on past that to even bring up Khashoggi?

RAVID: No doubt, no doubt. That's in the past and the fact that, Mohammed Bin Salman is coming and being accepted in Washington with red carpets, I think means a lot to where this leader is the 40-year- old leader of Saudi Arabia, who in the next few months could turn into the king for the next 40 years.

And this is why this visit is so important to the U.S.-Saudi relationship. And there are there are series of agreements that the Saudis hope to sign during this visit. We have to remember, Donald Trump was in Saudi Arabia last May. There were a series of agreements that were allegedly agreed on, but the Saudis feel that they were never implemented.

So, a lot of these discussions during this visit is, how are they actually going to implement the agreements that they've been discussing since last May? One of those agreements is a defense and security agreement, I mean the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, wanted the defense treaty for a long time. This is not going to happen because there is no majority in the Senate to do that.

[19:40:28]

The Saudis are going to get something like what Qatar got a few weeks ago, some sort of a U.S. security guarantee that will be anchored in a Presidential executive order. The Saudis want to get a bit more than what Qatar got, but I think that's the best the Saudis can hope for at the moment.

Obviously, part of that is a massive weapons deal. There's a possibility of F-35 fighter jets being sold to Saudi Arabia, although this is not a done deal yet. And obviously, the issue of how this comes together with what President Trump wants to see, which is Saudi Arabia joining the Abraham Accords and signing a historic peace deal with Israel, although everybody in the White House knows that this is not something that's going to happen during this visit, this visit might launch the negotiations over such a deal.

DEAN: Yeah, and just quickly, in terms of the that potential supplying of the fighter jets to Saudi Arabia, what might that mean for the military balance in the Middle East?

RAVID: Well, obviously, if this deal goes through, it's going to be a huge change because today, Israel is the only country in the region that has F-35s. In 2020, when Israel and the UAE signed the Abraham Accords and signed the Peace Treaty, Israel agreed that the U.S. will sell F-35s to the UAE.

This deal never materialized because certain conditions the U.S. wanted to put as part of the deal, and the UAE said we don't want it. So, this will be part of a possible deal with Saudi Arabia too because according to U.S. law the U.S. has to consult with Israel about how such a deal with Saudi Arabia will influence the military balance in the region, and Israel will have things to say about that.

Israeli officials are telling me that they do not oppose such a sale in principle, but think that it should be conditioned with full normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel, because they say there's one chance to do it. And if Trump, goes forward with this arms deal with Saudi Arabia and sells them the F-35s now, he loses part of the leverage that can get Saudi Arabia to normalize relations with Israel.

DEAN: All right. More to come, a big week, Barak Ravid, good to see you, thanks.

RAVID: Thank you.

DEAN: And you're in the CNN NEWSROOM. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:47:50]

DEAN: A new CNN documentary offers an inside look at the life of New Zealand's recent Prime Minister Jacinda Arden, from leading her country through COVID to redefining ideas of leadership and motherhood. CNN's Prime Minister provides a powerful glimpse into how Ardern's empathy and determination set her apart.

"Prime Minister" directors Michelle Walshe and Lindsay Utz are here now with us. Thank you both for being here with us, and I'm sorry I had to interrupt you last hour to go to the President, but I'm glad you stuck around. Lindsay, let's start first with you. Walk us through how you came up with the idea for this film.

LINDSAY UTZ, DIRECTOR, "PRIME MINISTER": Yes, actually, Michelle should take that question, since the project originated. in New Zealand, so let her take that.

DEAN: All right, so go ahead, Michelle.

MICHELLE WALSHE, DIRECTOR, "PRIME MINISTER": It really began very simply and that Clark, Jacinda's partner is a broadcaster, and he had the foresight to pick up a camera and begin to document the very surreal experience that he and Jacinda were living through, and that was unfolding in their lives.

And my husband and I had worked on her 27 campaign briefly, and we got to see that fresh, modern, empathetic approach up close. We knew she was very special, so we had some intimate access, throughout her term. But of course, we could never have predicted what would have unfolded over the next couple of years. And so, when she stepped down, we asked if we could shape it. All that footage into a film. And lucky for us, she agreed.

But I think the cherry on top for us was access to dozens of hours of really intimate audio diaries that Jacinda filmed throughout her term that she didn't expect that would ever hear in her lifetime. So together, that created this once in a generation chance to really show the human behind the leader, and Lindsay came on to help tell the story, and it was just a beautiful journey from there.

DEAN: Yes, it's really special. And so, Lindsay, because you had so much access, because you all had so much access and Michelle, you know, they had this incredible video and then access to the video diaries. How did you balance telling that story from both the personal and these public moments, kind of weaving that all together?

UTZ: Yes, well, you know this was really two teams, two countries coming together to tell this larger global story. We wanted to make a film that transcended politics, that really touched on themes of motherhood, work-life balance and what it looks. like behind the scenes under pressure. And this is a film, you know, there's been a lot of focus on the fact that she sooner became a mother while she was in office. And of course, that's a big part of her story for Michelle and I.

We're both mothers so we were drawn to those themes. But what really defines her leadership are the decisions she made for her country. She brought New Zealand together after the worst terrorist attack against its Muslim Community. She banned assault weapons and she decriminalized abortion and then led her nation through a pandemic with the singular focus on saving lives and those moments show her strength.

[19:50:54]

DEAN: Yes, it is an incredible story. We're all looking forward to it. Michelle, Lindsay, thank you again for sticking around to have this conversation. And I just want to remind all our viewers to be sure to tune in to "Prime Minister", it premieres tonight at 9:00 Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN. And then you can watch it tomorrow on the CNN App.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:55:54]

DEAN: President Trump claims White South Africans are suffering from human rights abuses, even calling it a genocide. And he refuses to send a U.S. delegation to the next gathering of world leaders at the G27 summit in South Africa. Up next, on "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper, senior correspondent Donie O'Sullivan investigates what's actually happening in South Africa. He visits a Whites only town that inspired one man to build something similar in Arkansas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Right now, there's about 40 or so people living here, give or take. But you tell me there's hundreds of people want to move here. Hundreds of people have applied.

ERIC ORWOLL, CO-FOUNDER, WHITES-ONLY SETTLEMENT IN ARKANSAS: Yes, there are quite a few people waiting to be interviewed.

O'SULLIVAN: Wow, are they all racists?

ORWOLL: Well, it depends on what you mean by racist. Are they racist in the sense that they hate other groups of people and want to deprive other groups of people of resources or opportunities? No.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): People like Eric are afraid that White Americans are being replaced, and a projection from the U.S. census has them worried.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): I think America is due to become a minority White Country for the first time in the 2040s. Are you concerned about that?

ORWOLL: Of course, I'm concerned about that and look at what's happened in South Africa. O'SULLIVAN: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: CNN's senior correspondent Donie O'Sullivan is here now with us. Donie, good to see you. Why is South Africa become such a talking point in the U.S., especially for the President and others.

O'SULLIVAN: Hey, Jessica. I mean, look, it's been about 30 years since the end of apartheid, of course, when a minority White population, it's put a brutal system over the majority Black population in South Africa. And what's been going on online for years in very far right corners, also, frankly, White supremacist corners of the internet is trying to paint you know, South Africa's problems today as something that is exclusively to do with race.

Now, what we've seen over the past 12 months, especially, is that sort of mainstreaming, of this idea that there's a White persecution and even a White genocide happening in South Africa. And of course, it's the reason why the Trump administration says that it is changing its refugee policy over the past decades, hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing war and persecution all around the world have been welcomed to the United States.

Over the next year, that number is going to be reduced to about 7,500, most of which are White South Africans. So yes, of course, we went there to try and figure out, to try and find this White genocide that Trump and others have talked about, and it's just not happening. One person, of course, who is big in pushing this misinformation in the United States is Elon Musk. And we spoke to his father, Errol, when we were in South Africa. Have a listen.

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O'SULLIVAN: America, in the next 20 years will become for the first time in its history, a minority White country.

ERROL MUSK, FATHER OF ELON MUSK: Well, that will be very, very bad thing to happen. You want to see the U.S. go down? Why? Oh, you don't like cars and electric cars and you don't like technology or what is it you want to go back to the jungle or --

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O'SULLIVAN: And, yes, just so as you can see there are pretty shocking comments from the father of Elon Musk. But look, that's the sort of attitude that is, sort of behind a lot of this rhetoric when it comes to South Africa. As you'll see in the hour that's coming up next. South Africa does have a lot of problems. There's a lot of crime and there are attacks on White people, but there are attacks on Black people as well. And overall, South Africans -- White South Africans are still doing much, much better statistically today than Blacks.

DEAN: All right, Donie O'Sullivan, good to see you. Thank you so much. Donie's all new episode on "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper, "MisinfoNation, White Genocide" is next. Its' right here on CNN. You can watch tomorrow on the CNN App as well.

Before we go some breaking news into CNN, as the FAA does say, it is returning to normal operations starting tomorrow. This will end the flight cuts that were put into place during the government shutdown, as airports coped with staffing shortages that led to hundreds of delays and cancellations across the country. But for now, for air passengers and those who work in the industry, the FAA returning to normal flight operations.

Thanks so much for joining me tonight, I'm Jessica Dean, we'll see you again next weekend.