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Ukraine's Allies Seek "Additional Work" On Trump's Ukraine Plan; Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador To Ukraine William Taylor; Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene Says She Will Resign In January; Polls Show Trump's Inflation Message Is Falling Flat; Woman Shot Five Times By Border Patrol Speaks With CNN. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 22, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:59:27]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean here in New York.

And new tonight, President Trump says the U.S. proposal to end Russia's war on Ukraine is not his final offer, ahead of key talks tomorrow in Switzerland. A U.S. official telling CNN top U.S. diplomats will meet with Ukrainian officials and European national security advisors on the sidelines of the G20 today, which the U.S. has boycotted.

European leaders pushed back on several points in this deal. The plan, calling for Ukraine to make some pretty major concessions, including capping its army and giving land over to Russia. And it calls for the world to allow Russia back into the global economy.

Let's go now to CNN's senior White House reporter, Kevin Liptak.

Kevin, we have these talks that are on the horizon for tomorrow, the deadline that the president has set, in his words, was Thanksgiving, which is next Thursday. What do you know about what's happening in this time between all of those things?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, I think it's clear that this is going to be the most intensive stretch for diplomacy since the start of the president's term in January.

As these meetings get underway in Switzerland, we expect that the president's foreign envoy Steve Witkoff, the Secretary of State Marco Rubio, will be in Switzerland with the Ukrainians so they are able to put their imprint on this plan.

And we expect that shortly thereafter, there will be meetings with Russian officials as well.

I think it's evident that President Trump views this as a critical window to bring this war to an end. He seems emboldened by his success with a similar plan in Gaza, you know, this multi-point proposal that he then applied enormous pressure on all sides to agree to. Now, when we were speaking with President Trump earlier today, he said

that this was not his final offer. And I think that will be reassuring to some Europeans who view this plan as essentially a Russian wish list.

You know, a lot of the demands that they have been making over the course of this war are included in this proposal. You know, be it that Ukraine surrenders the entire Donbas Region, that it reduces the size of its military, that it gives up some of those long-range weapons capabilities that it's been provided over the course of this war.

At the same time, I think it's also clear that President Trump views this plan, or something like it, as the best way to bring this war to an end. And I think the question going forward, and it's the question that I posed to the president earlier, is what happens if the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky does not agree by Thursday?

Listen to what he said there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, I would like to get to peace. It should have been -- it should have happened a long time ago.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How's Russia --

TRUMP: The Ukraine war with Russia should have never happened. If I were president, it never would have happened. We're trying to get it ended. One way or the other, we have to get it ended.

LIPTAK: If President Zelensky doesn't agree to this deal by Thursday, will you cut off military aid? Will you cut off the intelligence?

TRUMP: Then he can continue to fight his little heart out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: So the president there not saying specifically what the consequences might be of Ukraine not agreeing to this plan. But I think implicit in his answer there is that then this will be Ukraine's war. And then he's prepared to wash his hands of it, Jessica.

DEAN: All right. Kevin Liptak with the latest reporting from the White House. Thank you.

We are joined now by former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and distinguished fellow at The Atlantic Council, William Taylor.

Ambassador Taylor, thanks for being here with us. We appreciate it.

I know you have visited Ukraine a number of times since this war started more than three years ago. Zelensky has been calling this one of the most difficult moments in this country's history. And here we are now with this potential deal -- this plan that the president is pushing. How do you see this moment? WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE AND DISTINGUISHED

FELLOW, THE ATLANTIC COUNCIL: It's an important moment, Jessica. We should be calm and we should look at it clearly. And that's what the Ukrainians are doing.

And the Ukrainians, I think, are doing the right thing of looking to see where they can take advantage and agree with some of the points in these 28 points, even as they disagree and are going to make suggestions for changes to some of the other points.

So -- and they know that President Trump, has a little bit of flexibility in deadlines. So they're going to be shooting -- the Ukrainians will be shooting for this Thursday.

But this is a complicated problem. And this has been going on, as you just said, for three and a half, coming up on four years. So this has got to be -- we need to get this right. They know they need to get this right.

And the Europeans are giving a hand on that as well. As you say, they're getting together tomorrow in Geneva.

DEAN: And so, Ambassador, what do you think is most likely that we hear from the Ukrainians on Thursday?

TAYLOR: I think the discussions tomorrow will help answer that question, because the Ukrainians, with the support of the Europeans -- the Europeans understand that Ukraine is standing between them and Russia.

Russia is and has invaded Ukraine and is in route -- is moving west. And so the Europeans really want Ukraine to stop the Russians and they don't want to see capitulation by the Ukrainians.

So the Europeans and the Ukrainians are going to get together tomorrow talking with the Americans, with Secretary Rubio.

[17:04:49]

TAYLOR: And then he'll go back and talk to President Trump. And they will decide if they can make some changes to this.

So I look for the Ukrainians to be asking to agree to acknowledge that the Russians are in 19 percent of their country. The Russians now occupy 19 percent of Ukraine. And the Ukrainians will be prepared, I think, to acknowledge that as a fact.

But they will not give up any territory that the Russians have not taken. And they will not agree -- and no one should agree to give the Russians permanent claim on any of that territory. It's still Ukrainian territory. So they will -- they will drive hard bargains.

DEAN: Yes.

And in terms of getting a deal done, can Ukraine keep going in this war without U.S. support? The president saying there to Kevin Liptak that if they don't agree that they can, his words were keep fighting their little hearts out.

Do you think Ukraine can go on if the U.S., for whatever reason, stops supporting them?

TAYLOR: Absolutely, absolutely. And they will. Ukrainians have no choice, Jessica. As you pointed out if they stop fighting, if they capitulate, if they surrender, which is almost what some people have said this proposal would do, if they -- then there will be no Ukraine.

Putin wants to eliminate Ukraine. That's very clear. So the Ukrainians will continue to fight. Absolutely, they'll continue to fight.

Turns out that they are now manufacturing 50 percent of the weapons that they use on the battlefield. That's up from about 3 percent in 2014.

DEAN: That's a huge difference.

(CROSSTALK)

TAYLOR: -- get weapons -- it's a big difference. And they get -- they get a lot of weapons from the United States. The high-end sophisticated ones. But they also get some from the Europeans.

But they will continue to fight, absolutely.

DEAN: And again, I don't have to tell this to you, but I want to know what your thoughts are because you have been there so many times since this war has been going on.

We know Russia has been for months targeting Ukrainian energy infrastructure as we get closer to winter, really trying to make this as miserable as possible for the Ukrainians, which they've done over the last several years.

CNN teams report homes in Kyiv don't have electricity for up to 15 hours a day. Again, it's late November now.

What kind of toll has this war taken on the Ukrainian people?

TAYLOR: They're very tired, Jessica. They're very tired. As you say, they have been battered. Their energy has been battered. It's not just electricity now. It's also gas. And it's also their apartment buildings.

I mean, the Russians have attacked everything that's civilian and military in the country. They're tired.

The Ukrainians however have fought back. And they've been -- they've been damaging a lot of the electricity and gasoline, energy systems in Russia.

You know, pressure can go on, on Putin, too. We talk about the pressure on Ukrainians, but the pressure needs to be put on Putin to stop this war. And President Trump can do that. And he's done some of that with these

sanctions and some of that with the weapons that he's been providing. If he put pressure on Putin, he could get to the end of this war.

DEAN: And Putin in all of this, how would you say he's thinking in this moment? What would you think?

TAYLOR: He thinks he could wait us out. He thinks that if he keeps battering the Ukrainians. He doesn't want to negotiate. He doesn't want to end. He doesn't want to compromise. He's probably going to say no to this 28 points anyway.

He doesn't want to compromise. He wants Ukraine. He has said -- he's been very clear, Jessica. He said he wants to incorporate Ukraine into Russia. He doesn't think Ukraine exists and he wants to eliminate it.

So he wants to just wait us out. He thinks the Ukrainians will crack. Weve already talked about it. They won't. He thinks the Europeans will get tired. They show no indication.

And if the Americans continue to support Ukrainians and provide them with the sanctions and the weapons that they can put pressure on Putin, that they can prevail.

DEAN: All right. Ambassador William Taylor, it's always good to have you. Thank you.

TAYLOR: Thank you very much, Jessica.

DEAN: A shocking resignation as Georgia Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene stepping down. The announcement coming amid a dramatic and very public falling out with the president.

Greene saying, quote, "I have too much self-respect and dignity. Love my family way too much and do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president we all fought for."

CNN's Camila DeChalus has been following this. Camila, this happened late last night, and it has just been a surprising turn of events.

This has just continued to snowball, this falling out between her and Trump. What's the latest in all of this?

CAMILA DECHALUS, CNN REPORTER: Well Jessica, Republican lawmaker Marjorie Taylor Greene's resignation announcement definitely came as a shock to everyone, not just members of Congress, but across the entire Republican landscape.

Now, early on in her tenure, she really made it clear that she was a strong supporter of Trump and said that she could do whatever she really needed to in order to push his legislative agenda forward.

[17:09:46]

DECHALUS: But in the recent months, she really became increasingly critical of the president, often accusing him of focusing too heavily on foreign policy and not enough on issues that are impacting Americans here in this country.

Now, she also didn't shy away from criticizing her own party, especially during the government shutdown. She was openly critical of House Speaker Mike Johnson, saying that he needed to do more to address the growing health care crisis in the country.

And even though she's considered a polarizing figure on Capitol Hill, during these last few weeks here, she also took part in a big bipartisan push to release all the Jeffrey Epstein files.

Now, that did not go over well with President Trump on his end. He did not hold back on criticizing her and even went as far to calling her a traitor. And even earlier today, when reporters asked him about her, this is what he had to say about the lawmaker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I said, go your own way. And once I left her, she resigned because she wouldn't have -- she would never have survived a primary. But I think she's a nice person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DECHALUS: As you can see there, Jessica, he called her a nice person, but still reiterated that he would support someone challenging her in the primaries.

Now, Jessica, it's pretty notable that this Republican lawmaker did not say what she plans to do after leaving office, but her departure does beg an even bigger question.

And that is, will we be seeing more Republican lawmakers leave office once they begin to openly criticize the Republican Party, or even President Trump, while he remains in the Oval Office?

DEAN: All right, big questions. Camila DeChalus, thank you so much for that.

Still to come, President Trump underwater when it comes to Americans' feelings about the economy. We're going to break down new polling Democrats hope will be a big issue in the midterms next year.

And the clock is ticking for the Justice Department to release the Epstein files. Why there's uncertainty over if and when those documents will actually come.

[17:11:31]

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DEAN: President Trump has been celebrating the current state of the U.S. economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: The United States -- we're the hottest country in the world.

Prices are coming down and all of that stuff.

We have the hottest economy we've ever had.

We have the best economy we've ever had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: But new polling out this week shows Americans have a very different view. 85 percent of voters say their supermarket prices have gone up.

The issue of affordability seemed to hurt Republicans on election day earlier this month, with the New York City mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani, a Democratic Socialist, winning with a message of bringing down everyday costs for New Yorkers. It was the same in those governors' races in New Jersey and also in Virginia.

Just yesterday, the new mayor visiting the White House, where he and Trump seemed to hit it off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We had discussions on some things, I'm not going to discuss what they were, but that I feel very confident that he can do a very good job.

I think -- I think he's going to be -- I think he is going to surprise some conservative people, actually. and some very liberal people, he won't surprise them because they already like him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Mamdani later said his conversation with Trump largely focused on lowering prices.

Let's bring in CNN senior political analyst and Bloomberg Opinion columnist Ron Brownstein.

Ron, good to see you.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, Jessica.

DEAN: Yesterday's --

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: -- yesterday's meeting, there were so many layers to all of that. What did you make of it in terms of, look, Mamdani was certainly trying to get one thing. Trump trying to get something else. It doesn't seem surprising that the president seemed to align himself with Mamdani on the issue of affordability.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. I mean, there was a lot to unpack there. First of all, you know, one of Trump's staunchest allies in Congress, Elise Stefanik, is running for governor of New York. And basically her entire campaign is that Mamdani is a threat to the state and that Kathy Hochul is empowering him and kind of, you know, allowing him to threaten the rest of the state.

Trump basically threw her under the bus. I mean, the sound bites from Trump are a direct refutation of the core Stefanik message.

Second, you know, like Trump, like Mamdani, I'm a New Yorker from Queens. I think we have to kind of wait a few weeks to see how this plays out. It was never likely, I think, that Trump was going to try to send the National Guard into New York City. It's got too big and too professional a police force. And more importantly, it's got too many big Republican donors who had complained to him.

But the point of leverage and the point of conflict is going to be over the federal dollars that go into the city, over $7.5 billion in their -- in their current budget.

And what Trump has been doing with every state, with every city in the country is attempting to require them to adopt a whole range of conservative policies, including full cooperation with ICE on immigration, a variety of means to roll back LGBTQ rights, on abortion, DEI, as a condition of continuing to receive that money.

Mamdani had a six-page detailed plan on how to Trump-proof New York during his campaign. His first bullet point was end all cooperation with ICE.

Just hard to see how this stays quite so chummy in a few weeks when those conflicts really come to a head.

DEAN: Yes, I mean, there's going to be a lot more of this to come. But it is an interesting kind of starting place.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

DEAN: I also want to ask you about some polling we have. His -- Trump's overall approval rating is down eight points since March. But when you zero in on the economy, his approval rating is sitting now at only 38 percent.

And --

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

[17:19:44]

DEAN: -- you know, that is, as you and I have talked about many times, why a lot of people voted for him was to get the cost of living down.

So what does he do from here? and how would you assess where he's sitting right now on that issue?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, first of all, I mean, this is a complete reversal of his first term where his approval rating on the economy almost never went below 50 percent and almost never was lower than his overall job approval rating.

The economy -- the faith in his ability to manage the economy in his first term was a floor underneath him, lifting it up. Now it is kind of a headwind pushing him down.

I mean, these are truly bad numbers and they put, I think, in retrospective context, what really happened in '24. I mean, there were a lot of people, a lot of Republicans in '24 who saw his gains, particularly among those working-class nonwhite voters, as proof that he had engineered a kind of fundamental, durable, lasting realignment with those voters around cultural issues.

I think what's very clear now, you know, less than a year into his presidency, is that those voters moved toward him, as you suggested, primarily because they were concerned, they felt that Biden had failed to manage their cost of living. They thought that Trump could do a better job.

And now here he is, you know, ten months later, those voters are moving away from him on the same grounds. I mean, not only do they believe he is focused primarily on other things, his kind of personal priorities -- tearing down the East Wing, prosecuting his opponents and so forth.

But many voters think his problems are actually making things worse. And that -- that poll number to me just jumps out. It was an early warning sign. It was a kind of a canary in the coal mine for Biden, when a majority of voters are saying his policies were making the economy worse, not better. And Trump is now in the same position.

DEAN: And so I think the corollary to that is what are Democrats doing with that issue as they prepare to go into these 2026 midterms? Obviously, they want to use that to their advantage.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, I mean, you know, there's not a lot of faith in Democrats either, right, at this point. But they have in the normal kind of hydraulics of American politics, they have narrowed this huge gap they face with Republicans on the economy.

Because when people sour on the party in power, they turn primarily toward the party out of power. Democrats don't have a great agenda on affordability, but what they do have is the argument that Trump's choices are making things worse, right?

The tariffs are increasing your costs at the grocery store. His tax policy is primarily benefiting wealthy -- his wealthy buddies. And it's requiring cuts in health care programs, Medicaid, and now with the expiration of the ACA subsidies that average families rely on.

And the big lesson to me of the November -- the elections earlier this month -- was that this month -- I mean, it feels like a long time ago.

DEAN: I know --

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Yes, well -- but it feels like a lifetime ago.

BROWNSTEIN: It does. But the big lesson was that the fundamental things apply. Even though voters had a lot of doubts about Democrats, it didn't really matter that much. They were voting primarily on their view about how the president was handling his job, which, you know, centers on how he's handling the economy.

Over 90 percent of people who disapproved of Trump voted for Spanberger and Sherrill. That's what we saw in '18 and '20 in every senate race except one. At least 89 percent of people who disapproved of Trump voted for the Democratic candidate.

And this is the situation Republicans face. You know, if they break from Trump, he may turn on them the way he did with Marjorie Taylor Greene, as you were talking about a few minutes ago. If they lashed themselves to Trump the way that Jack Ciattarelli did in New Jersey and Winsome Earle-Sears did in Virginia, they face the reality that they are looking at an overwhelming, opposition among the voters who disapprove of Trump.

And in most swing states, I think in all swing states at this point, that's a majority of the electorate.

DEAN: It is fascinating.

All right. Ron Brownstein, good to see you. Thanks so much.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks for having me.

DEAN: Still ahead, a CNN exclusive. The woman shot five times by federal agents in Chicago and then called a domestic terrorist, is now vindicated. Why her charges were dismissed and why she says the federal government is still making up false claims about her.

[17:23:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: As President Trump looks to send agents to more U.S. cities with his immigration crackdown, we are now hearing from a Chicago woman shot by a border patrol agent during the raids in her city.

CNN's Omar Jimenez speaks with her in this CNN exclusive.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIMAR MARTINEZ, BORDER PATROL SHOOTING VICTIM: Can I show them?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

MARTINEZ: OK, so I was shot in my arm right here and then it went through my triceps and then I grazed the side of my chest.

JIMENEZ: Reminders of what could have been Marimar Martinez's last day. October 4th, the Department of Homeland Security claimed she rammed a

border patrol agent's vehicle in Chicago with her car before that agent got out and shot her multiple times.

She says she was on her way to donate clothes until she saw what appeared to be federal agents, already becoming a familiar sight in Chicago's neighborhoods.

MARTINEZ: So I started beeping my horn. As a Mexican-American first- generation USA citizen, I felt it was my responsibility to let my neighborhood know that ICE agents were near.

JIMENEZ: They turned out to be border patrol.

MARTINEZ: So I just got next to them and I was like, like, get out of here. And I was just like honking.

JIMENEZ: That's when she says they sideswiped her, contradicting border patrol's narrative.

MARTINEZ: They immediately stopped. I got to go somewhere safe. I went to my furthest left, make sure that I wasn't going to hit them.

As I was passing them, they started shooting at me through the side.

JIMENEZ: The agent got out of his vehicle and shot Martinez five times.

It feels like it's still top of mind for you, right?

[17:29:44]

MARTINEZ: It's painful, like, just to like talk about it, it's like -- think about it, like just me remembering like what happened that day. It's like traumatic, honestly.

JIMENEZ: She was charged with forcibly assaulting and resisting or impeding a border agent and labeled a domestic terrorist by the Department of Homeland Security. And then over a month later, in what became a critical court hearing, the agent who shot her, Charles Exum, testified the collision was more of a hit, not rammed. Then these text messages came out where he appeared to be bragging about shooting you. Read it, five shots, seven holes. Put that in your book, boys. You are sitting right there.

MARIMAR MARTINEZ, SHOT 5 TIMES BY BORDER PATROL: What type of agent brags about it? This is what the administration has out in the street.

CHRISTOPHER PARENTE, MARIMAR MARTINEZ ATTORNEY: For 15 years, I was a federal prosecutor. I worked every day with FBI, DEA, DHS. I have never come across an agent like that. And it's something that's embarrassing to me as a former federal prosecutor.

JIMENEZ: Thursday night, there was suddenly a major shift. The case was dropped. And at the request of the prosecution, despite the case being dismissed, DHS stuck to their original accusations. On October 4, Border Patrol law enforcement officers were ambushed by domestic terrorists that rammed federal agents with their vehicles. The woman, Marimar Martinez, driving one of the vehicles, was armed with a semiautomatic weapon and has a history of doxing federal agents. We will not allow domestic terrorists to attack our law enforcement. This was after you were cleared of these charges.

MARTINEZ: Where are they getting all this fake information from? I was just shocked, honestly.

JIMENEZ: While a gun was found in her car, it was never brought out. It was still inside a holster with the snap closed. She also has her concealed carry license her attorney says.

PARENTE: They're still putting out these false statements that are disputed by their own people, right? Agent Exum testified that there was no ramming. I mean, he's the driver. He was there.

JIMENEZ: For Martinez, she's just happy this chapter is over with, but she can't avoid its reminders.

When you look at those scars on your body, what do you think about?

MARTINEZ: I'm a survivor.

JIMENEZ: And it's not just the physical scars she lives with.

MARTINEZ: I don't want to remember that day. You're laying there at night and you're just thinking about it, like, what's going to happen? Like, really emotional to me. So it's hard for me to talk about it, but I'm trying.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: Now, as for Martinez moving forward, she is a Montessori school teacher and says she's just excited to get back to her kids, but knows life won't be quite normal after this. Now, when you look at the significance of this case, this was actually a case that the Trump administration cited in trying to get the Supreme Court to sign off on deploying the National Guard here to the city of Chicago, saying essentially their agents needed more security.

And that attorney you just heard from, Chris Parente, former federal prosecutor, he actually credited the Trump appointed US attorney here in the Chicago area for what he said took guts to not move forward with a case that likely had a lot of pressure on it. And for what it's worth, the US Attorney's Office, Andrew Boutros' office, told me they are constantly evaluating new facts and information, a dynamic that applies here as well. Omar Jimenez, CNN, Chicago.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: President John F. Kennedy's granddaughter revealing a devastating diagnosis tonight writing she has terminal cancer. In an essay in the New Yorker, 35-year-old Tatiana Schlossberg writes doctors diagnosed her last year with a rare cancer, acute myeloid leukemia with a rare mutation. It's found in less than 2 percent of cases. Doctors discovered she had the cancer shortly after she gave birth to her daughter in May of 2023. She writes in the piece, "I could not believe they were talking about me. I had swum a mile in the pool the day before, nine months pregnant. I wasn't sick. I didn't feel sick. I was actually one of the healthiest people I knew.

Schlossberg is the daughter of former US Ambassador Caroline Kennedy and Edward Schlossberg. And she and her husband have a three-year-old son and a one-year-old daughter. She says her parents, her sister, Rose, and brother, Jack, who just announced a bid for US Congress have been helping her raise her small children.

Coming up, new investigations, subpoenas and a renewed focus in Congress when it comes to the Epstein files, the next stage of the political battle over the documents and why President Trump may not be releasing everything here in CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:34:25]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: The deadline for the Epstein files to be released is looming since President Trump signed the bill into law Wednesday. This is the House Oversight Committee is expanding its investigation into Epstein by issuing subpoenas to two banks as well as soliciting advice from Epstein survivors about what the committee should target next.

Former Federal Prosecutor Alyse Adamson is joining us now. Alyse Adamson, good to see you. There were several exceptions within this legislation that President Trump signed to release the Epstein files that could complicate or delay any disclosure. From where you're sitting, how likely is it you think all of the files will be released in a timely manner?

ALYSE ADAMSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, Jessica, first of all, thanks for having me. I think it's very unlikely that we are going to see all of the files released in a timely manner. And the reason is this. One of the exceptions, obviously, is to protect the identities of the victims. That can take some time.

Now, we already know that redacted copies have been made, but we can imagine that it's voluminous, tens of thousands of documents. But I think more importantly, Jessica, there's a wrinkle to this disclosure, and that is that the Department of Justice has now opened up a new investigation into the Epstein, into Epstein, which is being spearheaded by Jay Clayton out of New York.

[17:40:16]

And of course, there is a very clear exception in this bill that DOJ may withhold documents if they may jeopardize active investigations or prosecution. So I think we can expect to see large tranches of documents being withheld on those grounds.

DEAN: Yes, and that will be very interesting to see kind of what that fight looks like. What about the House Oversight Committee widening its investigation, continuing to dig into this? What impact might that have?

ADAMSON: Well, Jessica, again with this bill, the Department of Justice is being told that they have to disclose the documents related to the 2019 and the 2011 investigations into Epstein as well as his 2019. So, as you know, they're looking into Epstein's banks and other financial transactions.

I think we can expect to see a push for more transparency. The allegations there are very serious, that some of these banks had flagged these transactions as far back as, you know, when the first 2011 investigation was ongoing. And so, I think we can expect to see more subpoenas.

But once again, the Department of Justice does have tools to withhold certain documents they have, but the banks do not have those tools, and so they must comply with any subpoenas that are sent to them pursuant to this investigation.

DEAN: I want to ask you about another case that's been in the news. Attorneys for the former FBI Director James Comey are now asking to dismiss the charges against him because a grand jury never approved this final indictment. The DOJ saying the indictment was reviewed by the grand jury after prosecutors admitted in court this week that not all grand jury members saw it. How rare is it that this situation that we're describing here?

ADAMSON: Yes. It's extremely rare. I call the handling of the Comey case a choose your own adventure of procedural errors, because all of these missteps that have been made are -- can be summarized as rookie mistakes. Any experienced prosecutor knows that you must present the indictment, the actual document to the grand jury to review and approve and vote on. That didn't happen here.

What happened here is that the grand jury saw the original indictment, which had three counts, rejected one of those counts. And for whatever reason, probably due to inexperience and maybe to mitigate some embarrassment of being no billed on a charge, Halligan or her team decided to produce this clean copy of the indictment.

And we don't know what happens next because during the court proceedings this week, the government represented that, as you just noted, that the full grand jury didn't see the new document. However, the government has just filed a correction and said, no, the full grand jury did see it. But if that's the case, there is no record of that resubmission, which is extremely unusual because all grand jury proceedings must be recorded either by audio or by a stenographer.

DEAN: And so, what does this mean, Alyse, for this case going forward?

ADAMSON: I mean, that is the key question right now, whether it is harmless error or whether it is fatal flaw. So essentially, what a judge is going to have to determine is whether or not the failure to represent this document, this indictment, if it really was not resubmitted, means that there was no indictment at all.

Now, there is some case law to suggest that all the grand juries, the entire grand jury, must concur and vote on an indictment. But because this is so rare, it hasn't really been litigated yet, Jessica. So I think the defense has a meritorious argument, but I also think that because they had already voted and approved those two charges, the government also has grounds to make their argument that the indictment stands.

So we're going to have to watch very closely what happens in court, but it is definitely going to be a fight for sure.

DEAN: Yes. And then another, one of these cases we've been monitoring, the Justice Department has suggested at a court hearing on Friday, former National Security Adviser John Bolton could possibly face more charges. The lead prosecutor in that case telling the judge that there was a voluminous amount of documents that need to be sifted through. The judge seemed pretty frustrated by how long that might take.

So I guess my question is, like, how long do you think the Justice Department will continue to kind of stay at this to try to get any additional charges? And do you think that is something we should expect?

ADAMSON: Well, I believe seven months is what the government is representing to court. It's going to take them to comb through all of these documents.

[17:45:00]

I want to say it is not unusual for the government to add charges to a case after it's been indicted. That's what's known as a superseding indictment. What's unusual here is the amount of documents that the government is still sifting through after having indicted the case. I think a lot of this is a function of the fact that the case was advancing toward the statute of limitations, which we saw in the Comey case.

The government was running out of time to bring the case. So I think the judge is getting frustrated because they went and dropped this indictment, but it's clear that there's a lot of material that the government didn't review and they can add more charges.

Now, it's hard to say, Jessica, how many charges would be added, if any, but given the nature of the case, which is his retention and transmission of this information, given that the documents that are being reviewed are national security sensitive, that's why the prosecutors haven't seen them, I think there is a likelihood that we will see additional charges to that 18 count indictment.

DEAN: All right, more to come on that. Alyse Adamson, always good to see you. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

ADAMSON: Thanks so much for having me.

DEAN: Still ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito giving Texas the green light to use its new congressional map, the one that would likely give Republicans five new seats in Congress. Why some experts say this is just the beginning of a whole new legal battle in American politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:50:55]

DEAN: Let's take a look now at some of the other top stories we're following this evening. A fire that broke out on a cargo ship at the Port Angeles last night has been substantially-contained. That's according to the Seaport.

More than 180 firefighters were needed to fight that fire, which started on as an electrical fire on the lower deck that then led to an explosion that shook the vessel. The ship was carrying several cargo containers filled with hazardous materials. No injuries were reported. The ship has since been moved.

After the end of the longest government shutdown in history, some California TSA agents say they are not just waiting for back pay, they're still waiting to be paid for current work. That's according to CNN affiliate KXTV.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AUSTIN LEE, SACRAMENTO TSA EMPLOYEE: We're still coming day by day. We still come in like all our shifts, you know, just working hard and we're still not getting paid.

JEANETTE TABURADA, SACRAMENTO TSA EMPLOYEE: I felt so down. Yes, I came into work not even motivated to work but my mind is sick. What am I going to do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ADAMSON: The employees tell KXTV they were told they could receive pay by Monday. The US Office Of Personnel Management told the station that workers could be paid "as soon as possible." KXTV also reaching out to the Department of Homeland Security for a statement, they have not heard back.

Voting is underway for the 2025 CNN Hero of the Year. Each week we highlight CNN's top five heroes as you vote for your favorites. Tonight you can meet Heidi Carmen. Heidi and her golden retriever, Kerith became a therapy dog team in 2019. And since then, they've made it their mission to comfort first responders on the front lines. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEIDI CARMEN, KERITH HANDLER: To fight the fires in California, it's like a war zone. It's grueling work. It's smoky, it's hot. It's dangerous. They go for a minimum of two weeks, 24 hours on, 24 hours off.

That stress to have it lightened with a therapy dog visit is priceless. We got Kerith in 2018 and were training her to become a working guide dog. She was just too friendly to every single person so I started doing therapy dog work with her.

During the 2020 fire season, going around to fire base camps, she was so good at just making the firefighters feel better. I started posting pictures on her Instagram. Then I was getting messages, can you come to my husband's police department? I'm like, yes, sure.

Now we have hundreds of therapy dog teams across the entire country. We go to fire base camps, fire stations, fire police departments, 911 dispatch centers, all first responders would benefit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The average adult male lives around 18 years longer than the average adult police officer. And that is often because of chronic stress. And oftentimes as a defense mechanism, we close up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she just for first responders?

CARMEN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's soft. When we are around emotional support animals, you just see that all sort of melt away.

CARMEN: Cortisol levels go down, the endorphin levels go up. I can feel that goodness just coming up the leash.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to have a dog come by. She can't talk, can't ask questions, it can kind of break the ice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aw, I missed you too.

The first time I met Karith, I had undiagnosed PTSD. She just picked up on it right away. She just went nose to nose with me and we just had a moment and it broke me down. This was my wake up call that I needed to go to therapy. The man's best friend for a reason.

CARMEN: We have helped so many people. I'm grateful to Kerith for showing me the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And you can go to cnnheroes.com right now to vote for Heidi for Hero of the Year or any of your favorite top five heroes. You get 10 votes a day, every day to help the heroes who inspire you the most.

[17:55:08]

So ahead in our next hour, European leaders pushing back on President Trump's plan to end Russia's war on Ukraine. Why they say the conflict can only be ended with the consent of both Ukraine and its European allies.