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Maduro Detained In New York As Trump Says The U.S. Will "Run" America; Maduro Set To Make First Court Appearance At Noon Monday; How The U.S. Assault On Venezuela Unfolded; Top Dems Seethe Over Trump Administration's Actions In Venezuela; GOP Largely Cheers Trump Removing Venezuela's Maduro From Power; What Is The Role Of The U.S. In Venezuela's Future?; Thirty Thousand Troops Positioned Along Border With Venezuela. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired January 04, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:30]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and thank you so much for joining us tonight. I'm Boris Sanchez and this is CNN special breaking news coverage.

We begin with the latest details on the U.S. incursion into Venezuela and what comes next after the capture of its now former president, Nicolas Maduro. Right now the former Venezuelan leader is being held in a New York City detention center ahead of a court hearing set for tomorrow. An arraignment to begin at noon.

Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, have been booked on criminal charges, including narcoterrorism and drug trafficking, after the U.S. attorney general vowed they would face the full wrath of American justice.

Back in Caracas, Maduro's vice president, Delcy Rodriguez, has been sworn in as acting president even as she demands Maduro's release, calling him the country's only true leader. Yet President Trump says that Rodriguez has agreed to work as a partner with the United States in his resolve to temporarily run Venezuela. And in a new interview Trump is pressing her publicly, warning that if she does not cooperate, she will pay a big price, bigger than Maduro.

How she responds remains one of many unanswered questions for the administration and its plans for Venezuela, with Secretary of State Marco Rubio offering few specifics about what comes next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: It's not running the -- it's one of policy. We want Venezuela to move in a certain direction because not only do we think it's good for the people of Venezuela, it's in our national interest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Let's go to senior White House reporter Kevin Liptak for the latest. He's traveling with the president in Palm Beach, Florida.

Kevin, what is the White House saying about any specific plans regarding running Venezuela?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, we are getting, I think, a clear picture of the president's description of what that would mean. And we heard from Marco Rubio today that he doesn't sort of envision an occupation of Venezuela akin to what happened in Iraq. This is much more of a coercion campaign.

You know, the United States very much leaning on Delcy Rodrguez and sort of the remnants of Maduro's regime to essentially do what the U.S. wants them to do, and relying on the leverage that they feel they have in that region, whether it's this massive military buildup that remains in place or this oil blockade that President Trump has put in place to try and cut off the economic lifeline there, to try and press those figures of the regime who remain in Caracas to accede to the U.S. demands.

Now, whether that happens or not remains to be seen. And what we've heard from Rodriguez doesn't necessarily suggest that she is marching in lockstep with what President Trump is envisioning here, saying that in her view Maduro remains the legitimate leader of Venezuela and that what the U.S. did in capturing him, seizing him, and dragging him out of the country amounts to sort of an unlawful action by the United States.

And so how all of that resolves itself remains unclear, but it does seem evident that the U.S. has identified Rodriguez as sort of the best, if not a permanent solution to run that country, at least in the interim. You know, there has been all this talk about the opposition leader that won the Nobel Prize this year that had seemed as if she was positioned to take over Venezuela if Maduro were to ever leave.

You know, when President Trump was asked about her yesterday, he really kind of wrote her off, said that she had no respect and instead said that it would be the Vice President Rodriguez who would be in the position to, quote, "make Venezuela great again." And so you can see how officials are really kind of leaning on her and viewing her as their best alternative here. In part, I'm told, they feel that she would be the best positioned to ensure and protect American interests in the oil industry.

And we heard President Trump talk so much about that yesterday in his press conference down here at Mar-a-Lago, saying that, for example, if American boots were to be put on the ground in Venezuela, it would be to protect, you know, American energy interests in that country. And they do seem to view Rodriguez as the best sort of option to ensure that moves forward smoothly.

[16:05:06]

Now, when Marco Rubio was speaking today, he was asked about this idea of the U.S. taking ownership of some of the oil in Venezuela, which is something that the president seems so preoccupied with. Listen to what he said there. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUBIO: We have plenty of oil in the United States. What we're not going to allow is for the oil industry in Venezuela to be controlled by adversaries of the United States. You have to understand, why does China need their oil? Why does Russia need their oil? Why does Iran need their oil? They're not even in this continent. This is the Western Hemisphere. This is where we live. And we're not going to allow the Western Hemisphere to be a base of operation for adversaries, competitors and rivals of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: Now, one word that President Trump did not mention at all yesterday was democracy and this idea of returning Venezuela to a democracy away from authoritarian leaders that have run that country for so long. Marco Rubio addressed that today. He said that they have short term things that needed to be addressed right away. They all want to see a bright future for Venezuela, he said. But there are, you know, steps that need to be taken in the interim that aren't necessarily making that happen right away.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Steps that it's unclear that this interim leadership is even committed to.

Kevin Liptak, traveling with the president in Palm Beach, Florida. Thank you so much for the update.

Let's take you now live to Caracas, Venezuela. Journalist Mary Mena is following the latest there for us.

I've seen mixed reactions on the streets of Venezuela. How are people there responding to the U.S. intervention?

MARY MENA, JOURNALIST: Well, I've been talking to people here in Caracas, and there's two words clear that comes to my mind that are worry and concern because some people fear that some new actions will be taken by President Donald Trump and some others consider that this was unfair for the Venezuelan people, that this kinetic strikes put a risk in many Venezuelans.

I've been talking to them but of course they are trying to get by to continue their routine despite the shocking events yesterday events. We went to supermarkets, to pharmacies, and they are getting products in case something happened in the coming days.

Also, we've been hearing from Venezuelan authorities. They say they are preserving the sovereignty of the country despite what Donald Trump said yesterday. The speech from Delcy Rodriguez was completely different of what the President Donald Trump said. She said that she will guarantee the peace of Venezuela. And also other institutions of Venezuela pledged loyalty, such as the electoral board and the high ranking officials of the Ministry of Defense.

Let's hear what Vladimir Padrino, the General Vladimir Padrino, the Ministry of Defense of Venezuela, said earlier today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PADRINO LOPEZ, VENEZUELAN DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): We here demand the swift release of our commander-in- chief, the president of all Venezuelans, and his first lady. And we demand, we ask of the world to observe what is happening against our country, against our sovereignty, against our Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MENA: Today, government supporters have been protesting in Caracas. They are also claiming that Nicolas Maduro should be released from the U.S.

SANCHEZ: Mary Mena live for us in Caracas. Thank you so much for that report.

After that dramatic capture by elite U.S. forces of Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, the deposed president of Venezuela now finds himself in a federal detention center in New York, one where Luigi Mangione, Ghislaine Maxwell and Sean "Diddy" Combs all spent time and complained about the poor conditions inside this notorious Brooklyn jail.

It's an extraordinary reversal of fortune for the ousted dictator, who is now preparing for his first appearance in federal court on drug trafficking and weapons charges tomorrow.

CNN's Evan Perez is live for us outside that jail.

Evan, what are we anticipating from this arraignment?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nicolas Maduro and his wife Cilia have now spent their first night here at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn. And, you know, the conditions here are -- this is not a good place. This is not a -- this is a, you know, obviously prisons are never a good place, but this one is particularly a rough one if you listen even to reports from inside the Justice Department. There are reports from people who've been held here of rat infestations.

[16:10:04]

There have been problems being able to provide adequate heat or medical care to some of the people who are held here. There was a report just in the past year from the Justice Department about confiscations of weapons, as well as illegal electronics. And so this is the setting here in the Brooklyn federal prison that Maduro is now housed.

And we know that there is a secure area that has been set up for prisoners like Nicolas Maduro and his wife. They're most likely being held in isolation, in part because to protect them and to make sure that their security and that they're being held safely, because they do obviously have a long road ahead to face these charges. Remember they're facing four federal charges, including narcoterrorism and cocaine importation conspiracy.

That is something that is probably going to take at least a year before they go to trial. And so all that time they will be held here. There's some notable people who've been held here, of course, including Chapo Guzman. Luigi Mangione who is accused of shooting and killing the UnitedHealthcare CEO, he's also housed here. Sean "Diddy" Combs was held here during his time he was on trial. So, again, from very notable people here. But these are not the greatest conditions that Maduro is now enduring -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And that will be a historic arraignment tomorrow at noon.

Evan Perez, thank you so much for the preview.

Still to come, world leaders are wondering whether this weekend's attack signals a change in international influence for the Trump administration. What exactly could come next? What are the implications. Plus, opposition to the operation was immediate for many members of Congress, including inside the Republican Party. Does MAGA and America first approve of these interventionist moves?

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:16:07]

SANCHEZ: We are learning new details about the U.S.'s targeted military operation in Venezuela this weekend that led to the capture of ousted former leader Nicolas Maduro.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is here to walk us through it.

This was a massive undertaking, Natasha.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It was months in the making. I mean, according to the president, according to officials that we spoke to, the CIA was installed on the ground in Venezuela back in August. And so they have been working to this point for quite some time now. But according to the detailed timeline that General Dan Caine, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, gave yesterday about how this operation unfolded, it really all began at 10:46 p.m. on Friday night.

That is when Trump gave the order to move ahead with this operation, which is called "Operation Absolute Resolve." At that point, aircraft launched from about 20 different bases on land and at sea. There were over 150 aircraft that then made their way towards Venezuela, and that included helicopters that included that extraction force of those Delta Force operators who were going to go towards that target, to that compound where Maduro was hiding.

And those helicopters were flying into Venezuela above Caracas. you see there on the image there, just at about 100 feet above land, above sea. And that is remarkably low. So they were flying extremely low and above them they had air cover as well. According to General Caine, they were protected by aircraft from the Marines, the Navy, the Air Force, the Air National Guard, and that included F-22s, F-35s, B-1 bombers.

So a really massive package here to make sure that those helicopters carrying those operators were safely able to go into Caracas and reach that target. We should also note that according to Caine the joint force began dismantling and disabling air defense systems across Venezuela in order to kind of make that path for the helicopters to safely reach their target. Now, once they actually reached the compound, which was at about 1:00 a.m. eastern time, the helicopters apparently came under heavy fire, according to General Caine.

And one of those helicopters was in fact hit. But it wasn't damaged enough to actually take it out of the mission. It was able to keep flying, and at that point, the Delta Force operators who were accompanied were told by FBI agents descended into the compound, looked for Maduro. The whole thing took about five minutes even though Maduro and his wife tried to hide, according to President Trump, kind of behind a steel door in that fortified complex.

Very little resistance. They were able to extract him, take him out, and the whole thing was over by 3:00 a.m.

SANCHEZ: Really impressive that no U.S. service members were killed and that they were able to recover all the pieces of equipment, even that helicopter that was hit.

Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much for the reporting.

Let's get some perspective now from former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Ivo Daalder.

Thank you so much for joining us, Ambassador. I'm curious about the disparity between what we're hearing from U.S. officials and Venezuelan officials about this idea that the U.S. is going to run policy in Venezuela. In fact, here is that country's defense minister warning against further U.S. action today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PADRINO LOPEZ (through translator): It was an act of cowardice, but it also represents a threat to the world order. And what has happened against Venezuela could happen to any other country.

This is the colonialist aggression and represents a repressive hand over Latin America and the Caribbean. And we reject that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: How do you read that statement in unison with statements that we've heard from President Trump and Secretary of State Rubio about running Venezuela's policy?

AMB. IVO DAALDER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Yes, there's a fundamental contradiction here. On the one hand, we seem to be wanting to tell Venezuela what it is that they need to do, including how they should govern their country and what they should do with their national resources.

[16:20:03]

But we're not willing to actually occupy the country, put in the capabilities and forces necessary to enforce such writ. So on the one hand, the president is saying that we will, quote, "run the country." But the secretary of state is saying is no, but we won't govern the country. Well, the last time I looked, the only way you can make sure that you can run the country effectively is if you actually govern it.

And this contradiction, which has been there from the very moment that the president explained that this was not the kind of law enforcement action that Congress had been told it would be, that indeed, Secretary of State Rubio continues to insist it was, this was a military operation as he said, in support of DOJ, the Department of Justice effort to apprehend two indicted persons, Maduro and his wife. It is actually a takeover of the country.

And this disconnect between the means that we have deployed and the goals that we have set is going to come and bite us in the back. We've been here before. We did it in Afghanistan. We did it in Iraq. We did it in Libya. You'd have thought that a president who ran on the idea of not doing this again would have learned a lesson, but apparently the last 24 hours, that doesn't seem to be the case.

SANCHEZ: It's notable that during his press conference, President Trump didn't -- he didn't mention the word democracy once. He didn't really talk about guarantees of a democratic process moving into the future, even though that is what Secretary Rubio has said that he would like to see. Do you think we will soon see legitimate elections in Venezuela?

DAALDER: I have no idea. I mean, I thought it was shocking, to be frank, that the president did not use the word democracy, did not even mention Edmundo Gonzalez, who was the -- we recognize as the legally representative of Venezuela, as the winner of the election last July. He clearly won that election. The election was stolen by Maduro. It was one of the reasons we called Maduro illegitimate.

But to suggest that you can take out Maduro and then have the regime stay in place, because that's what's really happening by relying on the vice president and the governing structure that exists there, and that somehow through the threat of military action, we kind of can guide policy with Venezuela strikes me as unlikely to succeed and morally difficult to defend.

If this is about democracy as it should be, then the very least we could do is encourage the forces that have broad public support in Venezuela, including President Gonzalez, including Mrs. Machado, who was clearly popular.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Maria Corina Machado.

DAALDER: Right. The popular leader behind Gonzalez. But instead we're saying, no, we'll be happy to work with whomever as long as they do our bidding, which is give, you know, give our oil back as if this oil was not Venezuela's from the very, very start. SANCHEZ: You actually wrote in your Substack that all of this reeks of

19th Century imperialism, that Trump citing the "Monroe Doctrine," centuries old, is, quote, "hardly a convincing basis for an action most of the rest of the world sees as illegal and unwise.

How do you think Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping see this, given that they have had interests in Venezuelan oil? The secretary of state has made the argument that a lot of their resources have essentially been colonized not only by Russia and China, but also by Cuba.

DAALDER: Yes, that's an interesting phrase to be used, when in fact that is what we're setting out to do ourselves, to colonize, to retake oil that we claim to be ours, but in fact is and always has been Venezuelans'. The Chinese buy oil from Venezuela. The United States, the president said the United States will be in the business of selling oil. We are going to be apparently selling oil to the Chinese.

Clearly the Chinese and the Russians on the one hand look at this with a sense of worry about what the United States is all about. But then on the other hand, they also see some benefit. If we can take out Mr. Maduro, can Mr. Putin take out President Zelenskyy? Isn't that what he's been trying to do for the last four years? Isn't he -- by taking the nuclear power plant, for example, and so much of the territory, isn't he just repeating what the United States is now doing?

And doesn't this give Xi Jinping more of a reason to think that if he takes Taiwan as he says he wants to, as he said in his -- again in his New Year's address he would want to that the United States, having done so in its own hemisphere, might not intervene?

[16:25:09]

So this is a deeply destabilizing kind of world. So what we try to leave behind at the end of World War II, after everything we've gone through, after so much destruction, we build a new -- a new world, a new order based on international law and international institutions and American power to enforce it. We're abandoning that world. And the kind of justification we heard from the president yesterday was a return to a world that we long, long ago passed.

SANCHEZ: Ambassador Ivo Daalder, we have to leave the conversation there. We appreciate you sharing your point of view.

DAALDER: My pleasure.

SANCHEZ: Still to come, some really strong words from former Trump ally, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, questioning how the president's moves in Venezuela could be considered America First. We'll discuss in just moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:18]

SANCHEZ: Today, top Democrats are sounding the alarm as the fallout over President Trump's attack on Venezuela continues to grow.

CNN reporter Camila DeChalus has been following all of this for us. Camila, what are Democrats saying?

CAMILA DECHALUS, CNN REPORTER: Well, there is a lot of uproar on Capitol Hill right now. A lot of Democrats are saying really arguing two big things. Number one, they feel that the Trump administration should have notified lawmakers in advance before they continue with their military operations in Venezuela.

And the second thing I've been hearing from some Democratic lawmakers is them saying that they really think that these actions that the Trump administration has taken is really setting a dangerous president. And they're saying that they're fearful that because they've went and did this military operation, that I will encourage other foreign actors like Russia or Iran to do similar actions and really kind of like -- and do a bigger thing in the conflict and escalating just even further intentions abroad.

Now, these are some of the things that I'm just hearing. But take a listen to what two top Democratic lawmakers had to say in reaction to this news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, that's one of the problems with this action in Venezuela. How does it actually improve the quality of life of everyday Americans? How is it in America's national security interests?

Why doesn't Donald Trump and their administration focus on dealing with the affordability crisis?

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): I'm a member of the Gang of Eight, and I have yet to get a phone call from anybody in the administration.

Whether you think Congress leaks or not, the law says you must brief the Congress. So this is just yet another example of absolute lawlessness on the part of this administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DECHALUS: Now, what's also pretty notable here, Boris, is the fact that just this upcoming week, the Senate is supposed to take up voting on a bipartisan war powers resolution. And this resolution was essentially just limit any president's ability to continue further military actions abroad without congressional approval.

And some members of Congress are saying, you know what, the fact that this has happened, it may encourage more Republicans to get on board with supporting this resolution. And this has a potential to actually pass.

SANCHEZ: Camila DeChalus, thank you so much for that update from Capitol Hill. Meantime, Republicans in Congress are largely cheering Trump's removal of Maduro, even as the president faces criticism from some conservatives who say he is straying from his America first pledge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): When the president said the United States is going to be running Venezuela, it means that the new leaders of Venezuela need to meet our demands. Our demands are now what they were before yesterday, that we want them to stop the drug trafficking. We want them to stop the weapons trafficking. We want them to expel the Cubans and the Iranians and the Islamic radicals.

And we want them to return to the civilized world and be a good neighbor that contributes to stability, order, and prosperity in our own backyard.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I think Americans recognize --

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Necessarily at home.

JORDAN: -- when that country took assets that belong to American companies, that's wrong. All -- that's all President Trump is saying is going to change in the future relative to oil. I think that makes sense. They took -- they took property from American companies. That makes sense that there's going to be some kind of compensation, some kind of -- some kind of reckoning for that.

I think that's consistent with putting American interests first, which is what the president has talked about since he first, you know, came down the escalator 10 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Joining us now to share her insights, Washington correspondent for "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution," Tia Mitchell. Tia, thanks for being with us as always.

It's interesting how these Republicans are trying to sell this as America first, even though there really wasn't an immediate threat from Maduro. It's not like he had a missile aimed at the United States. They're -- they're trying to make the argument that drugs being siphoned into the country is an immediate threat, but it's not really landing.

TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION: It's not landing. And it's not even what many of these Republicans, including Donald Trump, have characterized as what America first meant maybe some months ago, you know.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

MITCHELL: And so we know with a lot of things Trump shifts and a lot of Republicans tend to shift to remain aligned with him.

The question now is, are there on this particular issue, Republicans who are not going to shift and who are going to say, this is not -- not only not what I personally had in mind as a member of Congress for what we felt the Trump was going to do foreign policy-wide, but there are lots of Republicans in Congress who may be hearing from their MAGA constituents in these very deep red parts of the state who said, this is not America first. This is not what we want. We don't want more intervention in foreign governments and foreign policy.

SANCHEZ: One of those Republicans happens to be Marjorie Taylor Greene, whose last day in office is tomorrow. She has decided to end her career in Congress.

Here's some of what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Now, I am not defending Maduro. And, of course, I'm happy for the people of Venezuela to be liberated, but Americans celebrated the liberation of the Iraqi people after Saddam Hussein. They celebrated the liberation of the Libyan people after Gaddafi.

[16:35:04]

And this is the same Washington playbook that we are so sick and tired of that doesn't serve the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: It doesn't seem, despite her statements and -- and from some others, some predictable non-interventionist Republicans that there's going to be an upswell of anger toward the White House for not seeking congressional approval for this.

MITCHELL: Right. No, it doesn't seem to be that way. Again, because generally speaking, members of Congress tend to want to remain aligned with Trump.

Now, if this had been Biden who have done this or, you know, a Democratic White House, I think we would have a very different reaction from Republicans in Congress.

But because it's Donald Trump, they want to let him do what he wants to do, quite frankly. They're willing to give him pretty much carte blanche.

And so, most Republicans in Congress are going to measure their words carefully and not criticize him. It's a lot of wait and see as well.

And so, I think Republicans -- lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are waiting for more answers and more information. I think Republicans are willing to withhold comment, withhold any criticism.

SANCHEZ: Yes. When it comes to Marjorie Taylor Greene, do you think we have seen the last of her? She says she's -- she's done with politics, at least in terms of serving. MITCHELL: Yes. I think we -- I think she is not going to be out front in politics in the short-term. I think we will continue to hear from her on her social media like we did after the attack in Venezuela. She immediately went on X and had a very long statement about her concerns about the attack.

I think we'll continue to see those types of things. But I think give her three to six months. And then we'll see if she has any interest in kind of a next chapter.

SANCHEZ: You spoke with her a few weeks ago. If you haven't read it, you should go check it out right now.

MITCHELL: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Tia Mitchell, thank you so much.

MITCHELL: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Still to come this evening, President Trump leveling new threats at members of the Maduro regime still left in power. Could all-out war still be a possibility?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:40:32]

SANCHEZ: We're getting a clearer picture tonight of what President Donald Trump meant when he said the U.S. would run Venezuela.

Officials tell CNN, the administration is working quickly to establish an interim government now that ousted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro is in a Brooklyn detention center.

We're learning that senior level officials, including Secretary of State Marco Rubio, are hashing out a plan.

Joining us now to discuss is founding partner of Aurora Macro Strategies, Daniel Lansberg-Rodriguez and CNN senior writer Stephen Collinson.

Stephen, thanks for being with us.

I -- I want to start with you because you have a new article today about the historic ramifications of regime change by the United States. And over the last two decades, we've seen a lot of this. It's not a great track record.

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: No, it's not a great track record either in Latin America, whether it's somewhat mixed. The CIA has engineered plenty of regime changes there.

A lot of people yesterday were talking about the parallels with Iraq and Afghanistan. It's what do you do if you do this and then don't have a plan for the day after. Well, today is the day after. And what is fascinating the way this has developed today. It seems like what the administration has in mind here is not regime change, but regime decapitation followed by coercion on behalf or on the remnants of that regime for them to do the things that the United States wants to do, moving Venezuela away from drug trafficking, opening up the oil markets, moving away from China and Russia that Maduro wasn't prepared to do.

And I think there are massive questions here. Is that a viable strategy that the United States can impose on the outside? Does the vice president here, Delcy Rodriguez, is she willing to do that? Does she have the political power inside Venezuela to make some compact with the United States, even if she wants to?

So this is really fascinating how it's developed today.

SANCHEZ: Yes, no doubt. A lot of unanswered questions on -- on what happens next.

I do wonder, Daniel, as Secretary of State Rubio says that Venezuela is not Libya, nor Iraq, nor Afghanistan, that Latin America and the Middle East are apples and oranges. Do you see it that way?

DANIEL LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ, FOUNDING PARTNER, AURORA MACRO STRATEGIES: So, you know, first of all, thank you for having me on the show, Boris.

I -- I would say that I -- I agree in principle less because of the cultural differences, more because Venezuela was, for many years, you know, people used to speak about Venezuelan exceptionalism.

There's white papers from the United States in the '80s and '70s about how whether the Venezuelan model of institutional governance was actually something that could be applied to countries without huge oil reserves.

So as a result of that, you know, Venezuela has, within its cultural DNA, a level of institutionalism, which, you know, I think could be brought back more easily than a country like, say, Afghanistan, where you had a lot of tribal cultures, but you didn't really have, you know, people who, in living memory, had remembered working, for example, as a lawyer, but, you know, not as a broker, or working as, you know, within the realms of, you know, institutions without, you know, strong armed rule.

You know, I think that that's something that would might be a little bit more akin to a, you know, a post-World War II Japan scenario in which you had people who remembered Meiji. And you had 25 years in which things got really bad really quickly. But there's still people who remember how to function in that sort of state.

[16:45:05]

So I think that there's something to what he's saying. At the same time, I don't see how changing -- you know, how a -- a decapitation actually changes very much, particularly given that Maduro was not a particularly powerful figure within the ruling party in Venezuela.

He was, you know, the arbiter of, you know, certain factional disputes, but you really hadn't had very many factional disputes, at least recently.

So, you know, with anything, it's maybe an opportunity for a facelift for, you know, what is really a -- a very diseased and unstable political ruling parties.

So, I don't see -- you know, I think that the issue has less to do with institutionalism, more to do with the -- you know, the -- the actual dynamics within the regime are tremendously complex.

And, you know, if you don't have Maduro there, there's still more toxic figures that become more powerful.

SANCHEZ: Yes, no doubt. We were just talking about Vice President Delcy Rodriguez.

It's notable that the U.S. is putting so much pressure on her while the person that helped facilitate the defeat of Maduro in the last election, Maria Corina Machado, is currently abroad. And President Trump says that she doesn't have the respect within Venezuela to lead.

I -- I wonder what you made of -- of that statement.

COLLINSON: I think that was quite shocking to people who watch Venezuela, especially because the position of the Trump government has been that Maduro and his regime are not the legitimate rulers --

SANCHEZ: Right.

COLLINSON: -- of Venezuela and that this opposition party of which Machado is a key member, she basically ran the campaign, was seen as the legitimate government of Venezuela. So, it's quite a shift.

I guess it shows that the U.S. -- what the U.S. is trying to do here is walk a very fine line between going in there and, you know, knocking everything down. That is where the Iraq parallel comes in.

If you destroy the civil society or the regime, then you create the risk for civil war and civil strife and the state, which is basically a criminal state. That could be very bloody.

But if you don't -- if you're not prepared to get rid of the regime, you try to work with the regime, then you become complicit in that regime's repression against the democratic forces that you will want supporting. So, it's very confusing position in many ways.

SANCHEZ: Daniel, quickly to you, President Trump did not mention democracy in his address to the nation yesterday. Do you think that's in the cards for Venezuela in the near future?

LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ: So, I -- I would -- I would echo the -- the previous point that, you know, speaking as a Venezuelan myself, it was a bit shocking. You know, the assumption had been that, you know, particularly with Maria Corina out of the country, with the Nobel Prize, that the idea would be to restore the results of the election that happened on July 28th of last year. That's -- you know, and -- and to make sure that that election mattered.

You know, the idea of working with Delcy probably lends itself more to maybe a timeline for new elections at some point in future. I think that that's -- you know, it's difficult. It's a difficult thing to hear.

That said, I understand that, you know, I mean, there was a -- there was a great line that President Trump used during those -- during that press conference in which he said that she didn't have the support.

And, you know, I -- I was shocked when I heard it the first time because she won the opposition primary by 90 percent. And Edmundo Gonzalez was a figure that nobody really knew won the election by an estimated almost 70 percent just because she was backing him.

But I think that where she doesn't have the support, you know, I think the implicit thing is that she doesn't have the support among, you know, the various armed actors.

SANCHEZ: Right.

LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ: And if the United States doesn't want to send troops in, and they want to do this now, you know, I'm sure that if they waited six, seven months of, you know, De la Espriella looks like he might win in Colombia. I'm sure he would love to send troops over.

I'm sure he would leap at the chance. But right now, neither Colombian or Brazil is going to do it for you.

Guyana is not going to do it for you. If they had, they don't have enough troops. You know, where -- where are they going to come from? NATO's not going to do it for you.

So I think the issue is they don't want an embryonic government there that someone's going to have to defend. Because the United States came away, you know, rightly traumatized by the experience in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

SANCHEZ: Right.

And they don't want to go through that again, neither the voters nor the political LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ: class.

So that leaves you with, you know, really the only option being you have to work with the, you know, the armed actors that are there. And, you know, really that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on Delcy Rodriguez.

Delcy is and has been, you know, I'd say the face of, you know, the Chavista (PH) diplomatic corps for some time. You know, she has good relations with, you know, certain companies in India, China, Russia. You know, she's -- she's a diplomat.

Her brother is head of Congress. So that has good contacts in Supreme Court. That means that institutionally it makes a lot of sense.

[16:50:00]

The issue is that neither of them has particular clout with the armed actors.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ: So she's going to have to straddle keeping, you know, the people who do have good contacts there who are very powerful in the regime, keeping them balanced with whatever it is that, you know, whatever instructions she's supposedly getting --

SANCHEZ: Right.

LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ: -- from -- from D.C. in the way that it's been framed, at least, and sort of CEO approach to --

SANCHEZ: It should be -- to leading, yes. Yes. It's going to be a unique challenge.

Daniel Landsberg-Rodriguez, Stephen Collinson, we have to leave the conversation there. Thank you both so much.

Stay with CNN. We'll be right back.

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SANCHEZ: Colombia has deployed more than 30,000 troops at their border with Venezuela as the question remains, what is next?

CNN's David Culver is at the border following the story for us. David?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[16:55:08]

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But you can see behind me the reinforcement from the Colombian side headed towards Venezuela of Colombian military personnel, establishing themselves here so as to have a show of force and perhaps try to convey some sense of stability at least at this crossing.

This is the Simon Bolivar Bridge. So here we are in Cucuta, Colombia, headed this way is Venezuela. And you can see cars are coming over from Venezuela. I've even seen a few folks walking over and you've got motorbikes and bicycles.

And the same for -- from the Colombian side going into Venezuela. So it's moving at a rather normal pace for a Sunday morning.

But this is a very interesting town and that it's a big indicator of what could come. It's essentially a pressure valve, if you will, of the migration that has been happening in recent years. I mean Colombia is home to some three million Venezuelans who have fled in the past decade or so. And when you think about the total number since 2014, it's seven and a half, eight million Venezuelans who have left. Many of them coming through this border, so as to then continue on. And we've met them along the way through South America and into Central America and into the U.S.

But now, it -- it's a point of uncertainty, skepticism, and what happens next. This could be one of those places that we get a real indication of next steps.

For example if folks feel like things have stabilized and now that Maduro's gone, they can return to their home and re-establish their lives. This is one of those crossings in which that could happen.

However if they feel like there's more uncertainty, more instability, more fracturing in Venezuela, you could see more Venezuelans coming over and trying to flee whatever instability and uncertainty that is taking place in Venezuela.

So this is a place that we're watching closely for that reason. And you can see that Colombian military is also on standby trying to get an idea as to what next steps might be and how they might need to respond.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Thanks to David Culver for that update from Colombia.

Coming up, the massive military operation that filled the skies of Venezuela had a big impact on air travelers across the Caribbean and at American airports.

A look at the lingering effects to get -- lingering effects and efforts to get flyers back on track. Stay with us.

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