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Trump Says the U.S. "In Charge" of Venezuela; Trump Dismisses Opposition Leader Maria Corina Machado to Replace Maduro; Interview with Representative Mike Quigley (D-IL); Legality of U.S. Attack on Venezuela in Question; U.S. Officials Describe Monthslong Plan to Capture Maduro. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 04, 2026 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:33]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and this is CNN's special breaking news coverage.

U.S. President Donald Trump now back here in Washington, spoke out on Air Force One just a short time ago, saying that the U.S. is, quote, "in charge of Venezuela now." His latest comments coming after U.S. forces captured Nicolas Maduro and his wife during a massive military operation inside the Latin American country this weekend and as Venezuela's vice president is now calling for, quote, "cooperation with the U.S."

Nicolas Maduro now in custody in New York. You see him there. He is set to make his first court appearance on Monday. He faces criminal charges in the U.S., including narco-terrorism conspiracy as well as drug and weapons charges. President Trump had this to say about the case against Maduro.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The case is, it's infallible. If people are so happy with what we've done. You know, you go down to Miami, you go down to a lot of places, and they're all dancing in the streets of this country.

Now, he was a rough -- he was a rough man, killed millions of people. He killed millions and millions of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That operation in Venezuela is set to be the focus of an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Monday. A spokesperson for the U.N. secretary-general says he is, quote, "deeply alarmed" by the U.S. military action and deeply concerned that the rules of international law have been broken.

CNN's Julia Benbrook is following developments. She joins us now from the White House. And the president, in his comments, notably on the way back from

Florida to Washington, not only described his interest in taking control of Venezuela, but he also seems to be setting his sights on Colombia and Greenland now.

JULIA BENBROOK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lot of different comments. He spoke for nearly 40 minutes on Air Force One to these reporters, and he said, you know, about these strikes in Venezuela, he said, we have a sick neighbor or close to a neighbor, and he's concerned about what is near the United States. He then added, Colombia is sick, too. Now then a reporter kind of pressed him and said, does that mean that there would be an operation in Colombia to which he said, sounds good to me.

That's where that part of the conversation stopped. But some rhetoric to really pay attention to. And of course, when those comments are coming, just after what we saw in Venezuela, which led to the capture of ousted Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro, just adds even more weight to those comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have to do one thing in Venezuela, bring it back. It's a dead country right now. It's a country that, frankly, we would have been if I had lost the election. We would have been a dead country. We would have been Venezuela on steroids. Venezuela right now is a dead country. We have to bring it back, and we're going to have to have big investments by the oil companies to bring back the infrastructure.

And the oil companies are ready to go. They're going to go in. They're going to rebuild the infrastructure. You know, we built it to start off with many years ago. They took it away. You can't do that. And you can't do that with me. They did it with other presidents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BENBROOK: So Trump is now back here at the White House. He spent a couple of weeks at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida. And that is where he watched this complex operation in Venezuela take place. And now he is looking, you know, he's reiterating his stunning statement that the United States would, quote, "run Venezuela until a judicious transition can take place.

Now, he has said that the United States is working with Vice President Delcy Rodriguez, but she has pushed back. She has called for the immediate release of Maduro and has said that she does believe that he is the country's legitimate leader.

Now, he offered a stark warning to Rodriguez in an interview with the "Atlantic" that took place just earlier today. He said this exactly. He said, "If she doesn't do what's right, she is going to pay a very big price, probably bigger than Maduro."

[22:05:04]

Now Trump said that the United States needs total access to oil, and quote, "other things in their country that allow us to rebuild their country." Trump has not yet spoken to Rodriguez directly. He said that the case against Maduro is infallible. We heard those comments earlier. Maduro faces drugs and weapons charges, and we do expect to see him in court soon.

SCIUTTO: Trump has mentioned oil frequently. Not so much the opposition in Venezuela.

Julia Benbrook in Washington at the White House, thanks so much.

Well, the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, tried to walk back President Trump's statement that the U.S. will be running Venezuela indefinitely. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it's not running -- it's running policy, the policy with regards to this. We want Venezuela to move in a certain direction because not only do we think it's good for the people of Venezuela, it's in our national interest. It either touches on something that's a threat to our national security or touches on something that's either beneficial or harmful.

This is a team effort by the entire national security apparatus of our country, but it is running this policy. And the goal of the policy is to see changes in Venezuela that are beneficial to the United States, first and foremost, because that's who we work for. But also, we believe, beneficial for the people of Venezuela who have suffered tremendously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We should note, of course, that Maduro is gone, but his government remains, and his government is refusing to give in. The country's defense minister has demanded the, quote, "immediate return" of Maduro and his wife, and offered this warning to the international community.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PADRINO LOPEZ, VENEZUELAN DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): It was an act of cowardice, but it also represents a threat to the world order. And what has happened against Venezuela could happen to any other country.

This is the colonialist aggression and represents a repressive hand over Latin America and the Caribbean. And we reject that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: As Julia Benbrook was saying a short time ago, President Trump has warned that Venezuela's interim president, Delcy Rodriguez, needs to give the U.S. now, quote, "total access" to oil and other resources immediately. Otherwise she might face a fate worse than Maduro if she doesn't, quote, "do the right thing." So many questions here. With me now, David Smolansky, he's a

Venezuelan opposition politician and adviser to the opposition leader and winner of the Nobel Prize, Maria Corina Machado.

David, thanks so much for joining me again.

DAVID SMOLANSKY, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION POLITICIAN: Jim, thank you so much for having me.

SCIUTTO: So, David, first, tell me your reaction to this U.S. Military operation over the weekend. Do you, does Machado, does the opposition welcome the U.S. Military action to remove Nicolas Maduro?

SMOLANSKY: Yes, I would like to start this interview to say thank you to President Trump and the whole administration of the United States. Secretary Rubio, Secretary Hegseth, for this quick, smooth and clean operation that happened in Venezuela that captured Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, were they will face charges tomorrow in New York.

They did what the International Criminal Court couldn't do for six years and definitely this is a huge step for freedom in Venezuela.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, because administration officials, when they were discussing possible action in Venezuela for months had discussed the importance of restoring democracy there. So it was notable when President Trump, in the wake of this operation, seemed to dismiss Machado as a viable leader of the country.

I want to play his comments and get your thoughts on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, is the U.S. aware of the location of opposition leader Machado, and have you been in contact with her?

TRUMP: No, we haven't. Really no, we haven't.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, (INAUDIBLE) about Machado as a president?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, Mr. President, on Monday --

TRUMP: Well, I think it would be very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect within the country.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, is it possible that the U.S. ends up administrating Venezuela for years, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: She doesn't have the respect within the country. What's your reaction to hearing that from the president?

SMOLANSKY: Well, on that regard, with due respect to President Trump, Maria Corina Machado is the most trusted leader in Venezuela. She's got all the legitimacy when she won a primary with 93 percent of the vote, then when she endorsed President-elect Edmundo Gonzalez after she was illegally banned from running president elect, won with 70 percent of the outcome. And she's very capable.

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She's brave, she's courageous. She was in hiding for over a year, and I don't have any doubt that she's going to be with President-elect Edmundo Gonzalez. The leaders of the rebuilding of Venezuela, where obviously the U.S. is going to be our main allies, and we will have plenty of other allies in Latin America and Europe and beyond. But Maria Corina Machado is a leader who is out of this world. And she's got the support from almost every Venezuelan.

SCIUTTO: But if she doesn't have support of the U.S. president, how does she have a viable path to power?

SMOLANSKY: Well, she has a viable path to power because she got the support of the people. She's got the legitimacy. Not once, but twice. As I said, winning the primary in 2023 and then the July 28th election, 2024. And then she has led a resistance. A chapter that contributed, I have to say, contributed for where we are right now.

And I have to say, Jim, I'm sorry if I'm taking a bit more time on this answer, the support that we're having not only from the U.S. but from many, many governments across the world. We're having support in Latin America from Argentina, Paraguay, Ecuador, just to mention three of them. Panama. In Europe, we have the support of the U.K., France and Italy. And the vast majority of the E.U. member, Israel, Morocco, New Zealand, Korea, Australia.

So the support that Maria Corina Machado is having and the democratic movement is having is global and it has been very, very important to get to this point.

SCIUTTO: OK. In your contacts with the administration since this operation to remove Maduro, have you received any assurances from the Trump administration about the role of the opposition?

SMOLANSKY: They know what we have done. They know what we have achieved. They know the efforts that we have made. I also have to say that, something that we have come up is that there still are in Venezuela more than 800 political prisoners the majority suffering from a psychological torture and physical tortures, and something that I need to add, Jim, is that Delcy Rodriguez, the person who is trying to remain in power, she's a member of the cartel.

She's sanctioned here in the U.S., Switzerland, Canada, the European Union. She has been one of the enablers of the biggest money laundering scheme and corruption that you have -- that you have ever seen, not only in Venezuela but in whole Latin America. And she has been one of the masterminds of rigged elections in Venezuela. And I have to say that she's a communist as well. So, on, again, on that regard she's also responsible of those political prisoners. And I think it's very important the release of them as soon as possible.

SCIUTTO: Rodriguez has changed her rhetoric to some degree in the last 24 hours, initially condemning the operation, but more recently saying Venezuela has the right to peace, to development, to sovereignty, to a future. And President Trump at least has not taken off the table the possibility of her remaining in power if she abides by American pressure, it seems.

Are you concerned that she might supplant Machado and the opposition, in other words, that the Trump administration can live with Delcy Rodriguez as the leader as long as she cooperates with the U.S.?

SMOLANSKY: That won't be possible because, again, she's the member of the Cartel de Los Soles Sons cartel. I have to say that before she was the illegitimate vice president, she was foreign ministry, and she worked for a lot of years on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. She was one of the mastermind of open Venezuelan doors to China and Russia. She's someone that you cannot trust because she has participated in negotiations, tables and dialogue in the past, and she doesn't have a word.

And this administration knows that. I understand that transitions are messy, that sometimes you have to deal with people that are completely different from what you think, but the legitimacy is on the side of Maria Corina Machado. The leadership is on Maria Corina Machado. The support of the people is on Maria Corina Machado, and we will be, you know, doing some actions and statements during the next days that people will support.

SCIUTTO: The president has repeatedly mentioned oil in the wake of this operation. He said, we need to access the oil. We heard him in his comments there on Air Force One. He has not mentioned or seemed -- does not seem to be prioritizing a democratic transition at this point.

[22:15:02]

Are you concerned that this administration, this president, values access to Venezuelan oil more than restoring democracy?

SMOLANSKY: I think, Jim, that oil in in Venezuela, which is the country with the largest oil reserve in the world, doesn't exclude democracy. And we have said that to this administration, we have said that to countries, to the Congress. And I know, Jim, for over 100 years, U.S. companies have been in Venezuela working on oil. We have presented a plan. Its name is the $1.7 trillion opportunity where we want oil companies, and especially from the U.S., which is our closest neighbor on this topic to be involved because of corruption and money laundering and because oil was used to fund narco-terrorist activities, our oil industry was destroyed.

We used to produce when -- at the end of the last century, in 1999, over three million oil barrels a day, and this regime now is not producing even a million oil barrels a day. And that's because the oil company was used to fund narco-terrorist activities, and at the same time was used for corruption and money laundering.

SCIUTTO: Right.

SMOLANSKY: So, again, we are open for oil -- for U.S. oil companies to invest in Venezuela. We believe in free market. We will live in private property. I have to say that many companies were nationalized, confiscated and expropriated. That's illegal. And we want to do exactly the opposite. Promote investment, promote free market, and that goes with democracy and access to justice.

SCIUTTO: Right. You know, as I listen to you, it sounds to some degree like you're making a case, right? A case that you've made to this administration. I just wonder if you have confidence that the administration is listening.

SMOLANSKY: Well, you interviewed me I think the first time like four or six weeks ago, and you asked me about increasing pressure. And you asked me that if I was confident that this was going to increase, and I said yes, that I was confident and it happened. It happened on January 3rd. That is a day that will change forever the direction of Venezuela. I am confident that we will have, at the end of the day, an orderly and democratic transition that is going to be led by the leaders that Venezuelans chose, in this case, Maria Corina Machado and President-elect Edmundo Gonzalez.

They got, again, the legitimacy, the respect, the credibility. And we want to work with the U.S. We want to work with democratic governments in Latin America, and we want to work with all our different allies that have been with us on the most difficult moments.

SCIUTTO: Final question. Can you tell us where Maria Corina Machado is now?

SMOLANSKY: I cannot tell where she is, but probably we will know soon.

SCIUTTO: OK. David Smolansky, thanks so much for joining. We appreciate the time.

SMOLANSKY: Thank you so much for having me.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, what some lawmakers are saying about the legitimacy of the Venezuela operation and if congressional approval was required.

Our breaking news coverage continues next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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SCIUTTO: More now on our breaking news story this hour. Sources tell CNN the Trump administration is set to brief a select group of bipartisan lawmakers on the Venezuela operation in a classified meeting on Monday night. This comes as the U.S. secretary of state says approval from Congress was not necessary. However, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee vehemently disagrees. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): I'm a member of the Gang of Eight, and I have yet to get a phone call from anybody in the administration. Whether you think Congress leaks or not, the law says you must brief the Congress. So this is just yet another example of absolute lawlessness on the part of this administration.

RUBIO: Well, we will seek congressional approval for actions that require congressional approval, but otherwise they will get congressional notification, that -- and this is not an operation that required congressional approval. In fact, this is an operation akin to what virtually every single president for the last 40 years has conducted. The difference is that when it's Donald Trump, you know, you know, all these Democrats go bonkers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: A CBS-YouGov poll from November shows the majority of Americans opposed military action in Venezuela by more than two to one. Notably three in four Americans polled also said the president should get congressional approval before taking military action there.

Lots of questions to deal with. Joining me now, another member of the House Intelligence Committee, Democratic Congressman Mike Quigley.

Thanks so much for taking the time.

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Thank you. Good to be back.

SCIUTTO: So first of all, was this a legal use of military power in Venezuela?

QUIGLEY: It was not. And actually the boat strikes weren't. And you know, I think the public needs to know that Congress wasn't briefed before those strikes happened. They clearly weren't briefed as it relates to this. And this is, what, my 17th year in Congress now, we have been talking about Congress reasserting its constitutional role here. And all those 17 years, and it simply hasn't stepped up.

This is getting very scary. It's close to home. It has the ability to escalate very dramatically. And, I think it's fair to ask, what's next? Part of that what's next is Congress reasserting that role, but also understanding the threats that exist with this and what's taking place and just how far President Trump will take this. You know, not just in Venezuela, but his rather overt threats to other countries.

What he's talked about with Greenland. What's next is probably top of everyone's mind as we go back to D.C.

SCIUTTO: I do want to get to Greenland. I also want to get to Colombia, because he made quite an explicit threat to the leaders of Colombia. But you heard Marco Rubio there. And the point that some Republicans will make is that, well, Ronald Reagan, he went into Panama.

[22:25:03]

Well, Bush went into Panama for Noriega. Reagan went into Grenada. You had the operations to remove Milosevic in the '90s under Clinton. How is this one different from those, in your view, or did you also view those actions as illegal?

QUIGLEY: Sure. Look, Panama declared war on the United States. Noriega had. And during a conflict there, a U.S. Marine was killed. At least some justification. There's absolutely no evidence that there's any threat toward the United States here, you know, and the original initial reaction from my Republican colleagues seems to be that Maduro was not legitimate and that he was a brutal dictator.

That's all true. There's a lot of those around. If we're going to go after all of them, maybe want to get congressional authority, or that this was about drugs. Venezuela does not produce the drugs that are trafficked there. Mostly go toward Europe. They come from other locations. We have to address those issues.

So then what is this about? So when my Republican colleagues seem to be saying it's OK to do this because it's transactional. The president has made it clear this is about oil. Right after they say we're going to run this country he has talked about oil and he delegitimized a Nobel Prize winner who I would suspect most people thought would be the rightful heir apparent if there was an election today.

SCIUTTO: Well, it was quite clear from speaking to David Smolansky just a short time ago, who, as I noted, is an adviser to Maria Corina Machado, that the opposition has not received any assurances from the administration, or at least he didn't say they've received any assurances.

Is it clear to you that restoring democracy, is it at all a priority of this operation, or this post operation planning?

QUIGLEY: Look, there hasn't been any detailed plan, right? A wise man said if you break it, you own it. So what's next is the question. Clearly making this a democracy, a path to democracy has not been talked about once by President Trump. The secretary of state hasn't detailed any such plans of what's next in terms of that. All it has been so far is where is the oil, when do we get the oil?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

QUIGLEY: Despite the fact that the oil industry talks about how impractical this is. This is, what, the Trump doctrine? We should feel free to go after countries we don't like, or who have tyrants like the one that was in Venezuela? And then we're going to extract whatever we want? It has nothing to do with making this a legitimate democracy. If the president was worried about democracies, he would have done far, far more to help our Ukrainian friends and President Zelenskyy.

But again, even there it was transactional. We're help but we're going to profit. You know, we're only going to give you arms through Europe if they pay for them. And we're going to seize those Russian assets, but we're going to profit from those, too. So if the Republicans are saying this is clearly within his powers, it basically is saying, it's when the powers of the president of the United States to take what he wants, what the assets are of each country. It has nothing to do with the merits or how we stand on the democracy grid.

SCIUTTO: Well, given the president's comments about Colombia, threatening straight-up potential military action to remove the leader of Colombia, but also Greenland. I'm going to quote him here. "We need Greenland from the standpoint of national security. And Denmark is not going to be able to do it. I can tell you to boost up security in Greenland. They added one more dog sled." I don't know where he got that. "It's true. They thought that was a great move."

Greenland, of course, you know has the disadvantage or advantage, however you want to describe it, of being a territory of a U.S.-NATO ally in Denmark and in a democratically run one as well.

Should the American people and the world prepare for the U.S. president being willing to steal territory from an ally?

QUIGLEY: Look, what we said all along on the first Trump administration, the second Trump administration, when a tyrant threatens something, when he says he might do something, you better listen. So far, he's done just that. Excuse me. There have been less than subtle threats to other countries, including Mexico. So you have to ask yourself, what's next on the list? We're not even one year into this president's second term.

You know, my guess is it would be countries like Cuba. But there are many, many others that we wouldn't see as democracies, that wouldn't be countries that we would admire.

[22:30:05]

It doesn't mean we have to pick them all up. This is a president who has campaigned on nonintervention. We aren't going to do regime building or nation building. We weren't going to interfere in other conflicts, to actually talking about taking over other countries. I think this threat is real, and I'm hoping this is a week when my Republican colleagues get past the notion that this is about democracy.

They get past the notion this is about drugs or even the U.S. safety. This is about a transactional president who's actually willing to take over countries for their assets.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Mike Quigley, I'm sure it's not the last time we talk about this. Thanks so much for joining.

QUIGLEY: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, critics of the Trump administration providing confusing and inconsistent legal justifications for the Venezuela operation. Some say he hasn't provided any explanation at all. Now, President Trump says the U.S. is running Venezuela. And as we noted, intends to take over its vast oil reserves. All of this raises multiple legal questions. Joining me now to discuss is Luis Moreno Ocampo. He served as the

first chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court. He's also the author of "War and Justice in the 21st Century."

Luis, thanks so much for taking the time.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO, FIRST CHIEF PROSECUTOR FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT: Thank you for inviting me.

SCIUTTO: So very basic question. Under international law, was it legal for the U.S. president to swoop in with military force to capture Nicolas Maduro and take him to be tried in New York under charges, among other things, for narco terrorism?

MORENO OCAMPO: No. Absolutely not. The problem is it's a very different discussion within the U.S. and internationally. Within the U.S., the debate is approval from the Congress. That's the debate. International perception is different. Since Nuremberg, and that was the very U.S. idea, the most important crime in the world is aggression crime, and what President Trump did in Venezuela is clearly an aggression crime.

He removed the president of the country. So he bombed the country and then removed the president. That's political interference using the army. That's a classic -- the basic aggression crime. So from an international point of view, based on Nuremberg, this aggression crime, the most serious crimes of the international community.

SCIUTTO: Are you concerned that the reality today is, of course Russia does not pay attention to international law and invaded a country, continues to invade a country in Europe. Its ongoing war in Ukraine as well as other acts of territorial aggression. China currently threatening Taiwan, took over territory in the South China Sea already claimed by multiple nations.

Are you concerned that international law itself is falling apart if all the major powers effectively ignore it?

MORENO OCAMPO: Well, the war will fall apart. International law will remain there. It's clearly because that's the problem. International law is about learning from the past, and that's my fear. The U.S. is not learning from itself.

Look, in 1953, in 1953, the U.S. and U.K. produced a coup d'etat in Iran to get the oil, exactly as Venezuela today. And what's happening is 26 years later, as Ayatollah Khomeini took power, and from there we have all the assets in the Middle East. So international law is about the past, about precedents, about what happened in the past. And that is what is teaching us. But the U.S. is not learning from the past. The U.S. is focused on itself. And that's why this conversation is useful. You have to learn from the past. Removing the head of state to get oil is not easy, and it's not a good idea, will have consequences.

SCIUTTO: I just wonder if we're sadly living in a post consequences era when it comes to international law, if you think of other previous actions, for instance, international court warrants against Benjamin Netanyahu for the progress of the war in Gaza, for instance, or against Vladimir Putin for the invasion of Ukraine. The ICC hasn't shown that it has the muscle to impose consequences. And what does that mean for respect for international law?

[22:35:05]

MORENO OCAMPO: No, I think you're not proceeding well. International Criminal Court is existing. In fact, the International Court of Justice say there is a risk of genocide. And after the court said that there are 153 states that should do something to prevent genocide. South Africa did it. Chile -- so some countries did it. U.S. did not. Big countries are relying more and more in their own armies. But that should not be normal because, where will be the world if China, Russia, U.S. attack each other and it's the end of the world?

No more future for us. So the idea that you can solve problems with China going to war with China, or problem with Russia going to war with Russia, that is a big lack of vision. And that's why going to war in Venezuela is repeating the problem. But we are here to say, wow, this is not normal. This is wrong. Invading Ukraine was wrong. Stopping attacking civilians in Israel is wrong. Attacking civilians in Gaza is wrong and invading Venezuela is wrong.

All this is wrong. So that's the problem. So its big leaders are committing crime. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's like, look, I live in a country in Argentina where for a while, when the dictatorship, the police attack you, when the police attack you, what to do? The problem. But the law is very important because the law is the border. The voice is the compass, is the moral compass. That's why you should not ignore the law. And the law will not be ignored.

SCIUTTO: No, I hear you, and folks who've been on the wrong side of that, yourself included.

MORENO OCAMPO: Yes. And look, in my country, I prosecuted dictators. After years, people lost power. That's the point. People with a lot of power killed a lot of power. Everyone lost power. All dictators at the end. And law is again going back. That's why let's think in long term.

SCIUTTO: Yes. That's the one certainty of history.

Luis Moreno Ocampo, author of "War and Justice in the 21st Century," thanks so much for joining us.

MORENO OCAMPO: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, a closer look at the timeline of that U.S. Military operation in Venezuela and the U.S. Military's future plans for the region.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:41:11]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. New details now on the U.S. Military operation to capture the Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro, an operation which U.S. officials say was months in the planning. Sources tell CNN the CIA had secretly been tracking Maduro's every move since August, helping U.S. forces pinpoint exactly where he would be when they captured him on Saturday night.

Joining us now to discuss the potential plans for U.S. Military action in and around Venezuela, perhaps other targets in the region, is General Wesley Clark, former NATO Supreme Allied commander.

General, great to have you.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Thank you, Jim. Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So first, given your experience with the removal of Slobodan Milosevic in the 1990s, do you see this operation to remove Maduro as having both a military and legal precedent for the U.S.? Or do you see it as an outlier?

CLARK: Well, certainly we built -- we did this operation based on all the experience we've had really since 1980. You may recall, we tried to rescue our hostages that were held in the Iranian capital of Tehran and the U.S. embassy, and we did a lot of training. We knew where they were and we couldn't do it. Had a big accident in the desert and people got killed and the mission was aborted.

And since -- it's been 46 years since then, we've completely reorganized. We've trained, we've built equipment, we've put it in place, operation after operation after operation, and especially in Iraq and Afghanistan, the interagency team working together. They're really good at this.

Now, this operation in Venezuela is probably the most complicated of those. We had all the services, we had the ocean there, we had the mountains as General Caine said. So it was a tough operation. It came off brilliantly. It was -- there was resistance. There was radar and air defense missiles and ground fire directed at us. But it was extensively rehearsed and it's really about building an organization.

That starts with young officers coming up through the ranks, through the experiences they have, learning these skills, not something you can sort of give them a book to study and say, OK, make this work. This is years and years of experience. That's why no one else could do this.

SCIUTTO: So that's the military planning aspect. In your view, was this a legal military operation?

CLARK: You know, conventionally no. I mean, it wasn't a legal military operation. It probably violated international law. It -- they didn't inform Congress and get permission under the War Powers Act to do this, as the administration said they would. But on the other hand they did have a finding, I believe, which authorized him to do it through intelligence operations. There was a warrant. You can say that it's not legal to arrest someone abroad for a warrant, but as I understand it, Bill Barr is a former attorney general in 1990, decided that U.S. law would overrule international law when it came to these kind of enforcement activities.

So there was a shred of legality in this. When we did the operation against Milosevic, we did not have a U.N. Security Council resolution explicitly authorizing it. We went on a previous resolution from the refugee crisis that emerged in the autumn of 1998.

[22:45:03]

And it said use all necessary means to address the situation. While it was slightly a different situation, but it was a refugee situation inevitably. And so we did that. We didn't have an arrest warrant for Milosevic, but after we took and put NATO in on the ground, and he gave up the territory, he tried to have an election. He pulled the strings in the election. His own people turned against him and took him to the Hague.

So we did have a multinational organization behind us, and that was NATO. And so the international legal thinking was, OK, if you don't have the U.N. blessing, at least you have an international organization behind you. Now, and we had the International Criminal Tribunal, which ruled that he was indicted as a war criminal. And so he had to stand trial. He was brought to the Hague. Now --

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, General. Because looking forward now, the president appears to be setting a precedent here because now he's saying we might very well use military action to remove the leader of Colombia. We might take Greenland because our NATO ally Denmark, in the words of the president, can't handle security there.

Is that how the U.S. should be using military force in the coming days, weeks and months of this administration?

CLARK: Well, I think that's something the American people have to decide through their elected representatives. And that hasn't been done yet. I would certainly hate to see us use force against Greenland. I know we've already appointed a special representative up there which Denmark objects to. We probably have people undercover up there, sort of assessing the situation. But, look, we have a treaty with Denmark for Greenland.

All we have to do, if we think they can't handle it, go put the stuff up there. You don't have to own it. And again, this is a thing. We went after Maduro on the basis of drugs. We're talking about security on Greenland. But really -- Venezuela was about oil. Greenland is about rare earth minerals, which they have. But you don't have to own it to do that. All you have to do is work with Denmark and Greenland. You can extract all those minerals and bring them back.

This was discussed during the first Trump administration. People came to me. I know we tried to set up a fund. We were going to, you know, we're going to use, rare earth from Greenland, process it in Canada, have super magnets produced. Somehow it never quite came together. But the idea has stuck. But to break up NATO and go against a NATO ally for that, I wouldn't recommend we do that, because if you really look at the national security strategy, America's greatest challenges are not in this hemisphere. Maduro, sure, but he was a mosquito, getting rid of the Russians and

Chinese, they're fine. But -- and oil, we're the greatest oil producer in the world. If you want more oil all you have to do is incentivize people in the United States, they'll be happy to drill it. Now they won't drill it at $60 or $58 a barrel.

SCIUTTO: I hear you. I hear you.

CLARK: But you get all the oil you want from fracking right out there in Texas.

SCIUTTO: True. But the president talked a lot about oil today.

(CROSSTALK)

CLARK: With this national security strategy that the American people need to recognize what's happened because the Chinese are already looking at this and saying, hey, that was pretty good in Venezuela. We could take Taiwan the same way and the U.S. wouldn't say anything now.

I know Putin would like to take Ukraine that way and he tried and he failed. But there's also Georgia and there's Moldova. He's got the eyes on both of them.

SCIUTTO: And there are the Baltics. No question.

CLARK: You know.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, I know we'll be watching all those places closely. We appreciate your wisdom.

General Wesley Clark, thanks so much.

CLARK: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.

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[22:52:56]

SCIUTTO: Well, this just in to CNN. Venezuelan vice president under Nicolas Maduro, Delcy Rodriguez, is now officially the acting president of Venezuela. The country's Supreme Court had ordered Rodriguez to assume the powers and duties of the president after the U.S. captured Nicolas Maduro, removed him, took him to the U.S. There was no swearing in ceremony, but she formally assumed the role ahead of her first Council of Ministers meeting earlier this evening.

More on our breaking news right after a quick break.

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[22:57:16]

SCIUTTO: Well, U.S. airlines are now scrambling to add flights to the Caribbean after Saturday's military operation in Venezuela disrupted travel greatly. The FAA temporarily closed airspace in the region entirely, leading to hundreds of flight cancellations from popular tourist spots such as Aruba and Puerto Rico. Those restrictions have now been lifted, but airlines are playing catch up during one of the busiest travel times of the year of course following the holidays.

Delta, United, Southwest, American Airlines and JetBlue all say they're working to add more flights to get travelers back to where they need to go.

Thanks so much for watching this hour. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Please do stay with CNN. The news continues after a short break.

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