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Trump Scraps Witkoff-Kushner Trip To Pakistan For Peace Talks; Iranian Foreign Minister Said No Plans To Meet U.S. Delegation In Pakistan; Ongoing Tornado Threats For Parts Of The Central U.S.; New Details About U.S. Ship Seizures In Strait Of Hormuz; Mamdani, Hochul Announce Pied-a-Terre Tax For Wealthy Residents; Court Overturns Terrorism Conviction For NYC Subway Bomber; Trump Set To Return To The White House Correspondents' Dinner. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 25, 2026 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

LT. COL. GEOFFREY CORN (RET.), DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR MILITARY LAW AND POLICY, TEXAS TECH LAW SCHOOL: And the deterrent message that if you're caught doing this, you can pay a very serious price. And if he's convicted in federal court he'll also be almost certainly administratively separated from the Army, probably with an other than honorable discharge, and will lose the benefit of decades of service in terms of the pension that he'll forfeit.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Certainly a lot to chew on here with this one. I think you all raised such interesting points.

Lt. Col. Geoffrey Corn and Peter Bergen, appreciate your expertise this afternoon. Thank you both.

I do also want to point out CNN does have a partnership with a prediction market, Kalsi, which does provide us with data.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

HILL: We do begin this hour with breaking news. I'm Erica Hill joining you from New York as we follow developments and mounting uncertainty, frankly, around any potential peace talks to come between the U.S. and Iran. They're now in a deadlock.

Today, President Trump canceling a planned trip by his top envoy, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner. They were set to travel to Pakistan potentially for a second round of talks with Iran. This setback, though, after the president canceled that trip, comes amid a fragile ceasefire, of course, and offer also after Tehran -- officials in Tehran had said they had no plan to meet directly with any U.S. envoys.

Here's President Trump just a few moments ago explaining his decision not to send them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You probably heard that we canceled the trip. We have all the cards. We're not going to spend 15 hours in airplanes all the time going back and forth to be giving a document that was not good enough. And so we'll deal by telephone and they can call us any time they want. Again, we have all the cards. They have no military left, practically. They have no leaders left. We don't know who the leaders are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Now, earlier in the day, Iran's foreign minister wrapped up a flurry of meetings in Islamabad with Pakistani officials who are mediating a truce between the U.S. and Iran. He called the talks fruitful and then left the country, moving on to Muscat in Oman after he also delivered Tehran a framework for ending the war.

Nic Robertson is in Pakistan for us. Julia Benbrook is at the White House.

Julia, I want to start with you in terms of what we're hearing from the president. He said repeatedly in those comments before he got on the plane to head back to D.C., quote, "We hold all the cards." And yet there are a lot of questions about whether that's accurate in this moment.

Talk to us more about his reasoning for not sending Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner.

JULIA BENBROOK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, when he announced that he was no longer going to be sending in a delegation to Pakistan for these potential talks, he said that it would be too much time wasted on traveling, too much work. And he reiterated that while speaking there. You heard him say he's not going to put them on a plane for 16 hours if he doesn't think that anything is going to get done.

And this announcement, though, it came on the same day that we expected to see Special Envoy Steve Witkoff and Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, travel in for those discussions. He also said that he's seen some progress take place right now because he said he got plans, that he canceled the meeting and now he claims that he has better plans, but they don't go far enough. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They gave us a paper that should have been better. And interestingly, immediately when I canceled it, within 10 minutes, we got a new paper that was much better.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What was on that paper, sir?

TRUMP: We talked about, we talked about they will not have a nuclear weapon. Very simple. Look, that whole deal is not complicated. Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BENBROOK: And I do want to pull up his post from earlier today where he announced that these talks were not going to be taking place, that his team was not going to travel. He blamed infighting in Iran for derailing this possibility. He said in part, "There is tremendous infighting and confusion within their leadership. Nobody knows who is in charge, including them. Also, we have all the cards. They have none. If they want to talk, all they have to do is call."

So he signals that a phone call could be a potential next step. But he also says that he doesn't really know who is in charge right now, who that call would be coming from. So there are a lot of questions about what is next here. And when he was pressed by Axios in an interview earlier today if this meant that the fighting would begin again, he essentially said that he hadn't decided that yet. He hadn't thought that far, but that that was not something that he was signaling with this decision. He has said in recent days that he believes that he is not up against time pressure to get this done, but he believes that Iran is and that the clock is running out.

HILL: Julia, appreciate it.

I want to bring in now Nic, who's in Islamabad for us.

[15:05:00]

So the foreign minister had said before going, Iran had said before going, there are no plans to meet with any American envoy. But he did, of course, meet with Pakistani leaders. What more do we know about those discussions?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. The Iranian foreign minister saying in a tweet since he left that he had put forward what they described as a workable framework. He didn't say we had it kicked back to us, and we upgraded it and passed it back again. That wasn't the way that he framed it at all. But he did say, he did talk about a framework.

And I think that's interesting because we just don't really get visibility on what goes on inside these rooms and even what is being discussed, but it kind of fits what we've been led to believe that it's sort of the agreement that they're looking at is working towards something like a framework, a memorandum of understanding on a number of points. So that kind of shows us where the landing point might be.

But I think the most telling thing that the Iranian foreign minister said, apart from sort of praising his interlocutors, the Pakistani mediators and describing his meetings as fruitful and very strong language really for him, he said, we don't think that the United States is really serious about diplomacy. Is that because he was rebuffed by President Trump? Is it because he put back an upgraded plan very quickly that got rebuffed? It really isn't clear.

I think it's instructive that the president describes the Iranians within 10 minutes of hearing he had decided not to send Jared Kushner, Steve Witkoff, that the Iranians came back in that very short space of time with an upgraded offer. That does tend to indicate that the Iranians can think on their feet, that the foreign minister was able to have authority to upgrade that pretty quickly, which does hint at some cohesiveness in their leadership. But right now, the Iranian foreign minister is in Muscat having

meetings there. I think those meetings could be pretty interesting. He said he was going on there. He said he was going on to Moscow. These are two countries that could help. I mean, let's look at the key issue there. The nuclear enrichment issue. President Trump has also said he wanted a nuclear dust, the highly enriched uranium, the last nuclear deal that the United States had 2015 with Iran. It was Russia that took the medium enriched uranium back then off Iran's hands, and kind of dealt with that as an issue.

So are these mechanisms coming back into play? Is Oman another country that borders the Strait of Hormuz coming into play? Are there solutions that are being worked out? We really don't know. But, you know, the gap remains. I think a couple of key points here is the security in the center of the city, around the around the talks venue, that's been relaxed. But the other thing I hear from both Pakistani sources, U.S. sources, is there is still hope. The clock may be ticking, but it's not done yet.

HILL: And that is really important and an important note to end on as well.

Nic, appreciate the reporting as always. Thank you.

Millions of people in the central part of the U.S. are under the threat of more severe weather today. The weather pattern that sparked those storms earlier this week. I mean, look at this twister here. Well, that weather, that pattern, setting up to bring back to back days of really intense weather, all of this coming in the aftermath of the massive tornado that ripped through Enid, Oklahoma, leaving a trail of damage. You see some of it in these images here.

Joining me to help us understand what's happening and why we're seeing this severe weather, the meteorologist in charge at the weather forecast office in Norman, Oklahoma, Mark Fox.

Mark, it's good to have you with us today. First of all, what are you preparing for this afternoon? What are you anticipating

MARK FOX, METEOROLOGIST-IN-CHARGE, WEATHER FORECAST OFFICE: Well, first of all, thanks for having us. And we are expecting another round of severe weather. Could be on the high end of things so not only could we see a lot of wind, we could see some large hail, much like we've seen the last couple of days, and we could see some tornadoes once again. So this pattern, especially this week and last week as well, starting to see, you know, it's kind of prime time in the southern United States.

So here in the Southern Plains, this is the time of year when these things are unfortunately just kind of a way of life. And we're just getting ready for everything we can.

HILL: It is primetime, as you noted, and a way of life. And, you know, even just speaking last night with somebody in Oklahoma who is saying the same thing to me, look, we know what we're doing. We know how to prepare for this. That being said, what we saw earlier this week, what could be coming down the pike are these, like so many other storms that we cover, are these events becoming larger and more severe?

FOX: Well, the week -- this week we had an EF-4 tornado up in Enid as you mentioned before. You know, that's the first one that's happened in Garfield County of Oklahoma since 1992. So these things do turn to come around every now and then. And what we're seeing now is just kind of that normal pattern for us, where we are seeing some areas and some days back to back to back to back of some strong storm potential.

[15:10:08]

So this is something that's very well known to Oklahomans. It's very well known to those in the South Plains. And just one of those things that unfortunately, we do have to deal with on a daily basis. So on a yearly basis, rather. So this is one of those things that we are always telling Oklahomans and everybody else that wants to listen, just be ready, because when those warnings are issued, you need to be able to take some shelter, make some good decisions to help save your life.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. We look at, you know, the trail of destruction that is left behind. That's of course, the physical damage. There is a lot of damage that, you know, can't be captured in an image that sticks around with people and with communities.

Can you talk to us a little bit about the cleanup from an EF-4 like we saw in Enid?

FOX: Well, the cleanup is going to go on for quite a while. You know, the destruction, the video that you've been able to show for the last couple of days, you know, that can get cleaned up. The thing with tornadoes, though, even if you get hit by a small one, EF-0, EF-1, with wind speeds that are not nearly as strong as like an EF-4 or even an EF-5, it's something that's going to change your life forever.

You're still going to be thinking about that the next time the clouds get dark. The next time that you start to get into that risk area, the angst, the anxiety kind of ramps up just a little bit. So, we do like to tell people to make sure you have that plan. The greatest thing about this week's tornado in Enid, and I hate saying it that way, so forgive me, but there were a subdivision of about 44 houses, about 37 of them completely destroyed, 10 injuries, no fatalities.

So that really shows that the warnings are good. The people looking over the weather are there for you. And when it comes down to tornadoes bearing down on folks, it's really up to us as individuals to make those good decisions. So EF-4, only 10 injuries, you know, that's a success, although that's going to be a lot of damage and a lot of cleanup over the years.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. Mark, real quickly, before I let you go, as you say, this is prime time. I mean, how long does prime time last?

FOX: Normally it lasts through about the first week of June. And then it kind of shifts a little bit more further to the west. At least that's for central Oklahoma. But this time of year, for the next month, we're going to be busy here in the office. HILL: Absolutely. Well, we appreciate you taking the time to join us

this afternoon.

Mark Fox, thank you.

FOX: Thank you.

HILL: Still ahead here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Did you do this for any particular group?

AKAYED ULLAH, NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY BOMBER: Yes.

MILLER: What group?

ULLAH: Islamic State.

MILLER: Islamic State?

ULLAH: Yes.

MILLER: What we would call ISIS?

ULLAH: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Eight years ago, the man you see there appearing to confess to CNN's John Miller on camera that an attempted bombing in the New York City subway, you see, the images here, was connected to ISIS. This week, a key conviction we're learning was thrown out against this man. We'll tell you why.

Plus, the U.S. trying to corner Iran into a deal amid concerns from some that plan may backfire. Why the blockade that may have been designed with hopes for a quick outcome could actually be turning into a long, unpredictable standoff between the two countries.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:07]

HILL: As we continue to follow the breaking news, President Trump canceling plans for two of his top advisers, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, to travel to Pakistan today for potential peace talks, we're also keeping a close eye on the blockade, which continues across the Strait of Hormuz. The U.S. military has conducted a series of dramatic seizures of Iranian linked oil ships.

CNN's Brian Todd has a closer look at just how U.S. forces are implementing the blockade.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not attempt to breach the blockade.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New details from the Pentagon on a campaign to keep the pressure on Iran with the U.S. blockade of Iranian ports and to expand interdictions beyond the Persian Gulf.

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: To the regime in Tehran, the blockade is tightening by the hour. We are in control. Nothing in, nothing out.

TODD (voice-over): More than 30 ships have been turned around by the blockade so far, according to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. But he says the blockade is also now, quote, "going global." U.S. forces seizing what Hegseth called two Iranian dark fleet ships that had made their way into the Indian Ocean. Vessels which Hegseth said had left Iranian ports before the blockade went into effect.

HEGSETH: They thought they'd made it out just in time. They did not.

TODD (voice-over): The first ship seized by U.S. warships was the massive tanker Tifani on April 20th. According to Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman General Dan Caine, the sanctioned vessel was transporting Iranian oil at the time.

GEN. DAN CAINE, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: At approximately 11:30 p.m. Eastern Time, U.S. military forces and law enforcement forces also went to the ship via rotary wing platforms, fast-roped onto her deck and secured her.

TODD (voice-over): Two days later, a similar interdiction of what he called the stateless tanker the Majestic X. As with the seizure of the Tifani video of the operation issued by the Pentagon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Motor vessel Majestic X, we intend to conduct the boarding of your vessel.

TODD (voice-over): U.S. forces then seen rappelling onto the deck of the Majestic X.

[15:20:03]

CAINE: Both ships, the Tefani, the Majestic X, and their crews remain in U.S. custody.

TODD (voice-over): Those operations coming on the heels of a U.S. destroyer firing on then seizing the Iranian cargo ship, the Touska.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Motor vessel Touska.

TODD (voice-over): After U.S. officials said the Touska ignored repeated warnings to stop.

That means the U.S. forcibly seized three large Iranian-linked vessels within the span of four days.

REAR ADMIRAL MARK MONTGOMERY (RET.) FOUNDATION OF DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: The lesson to the Iranian ships is if you slow down and let us board you, you'll get the vertical envelopment. If you don't, you'll get the five-inch gun followed by the vertical envelopment.

TODD (voice-over): Meanwhile, Hegseth says Iran's fleet of speedboats operated by the Revolutionary Guard Corps has been severely downgraded to what he calls a group of criminals on the high seas.

HEGSETH: The IRGC specifically has been reduced to a gang of pirates with a flag.

TODD (voice-over): Hegseth says those speedboats are still harassing civilian ships.

MONTGOMERY: These ships can do damage. They could have a boarding party like we've seen where, you know, they put ropes and ladders across and board the ship and take control of the pilothouse. They could also just launch weapons inside a ship using rocket propelled grenades or something like Javelin anti-tank weapons and do real damage to the ship.

TODD: I asked retired Admiral Mark Montgomery if the U.S. resumes combat operations, would it be stretching U.S. forces too thin to engage in combat, enforce the blockade, and conduct those wide ranging interdictions of tankers. Admiral Montgomery said the U.S. could still pull it off, could still launch about 500 to 700 strikes a day. But he also said the Iranians would, of course, ramp up their retaliation, firing cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and drones at American ships.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Joining us now, the director of military analysis in Defense Priorities, Jennifer Kavanaugh. She's written about the U.S. blockade in a new op-ed for "The New York Times" titled "Blockades Don't Work the Way Trump Thinks."

It's good to have you with us this hour, Jennifer. And I do want to talk more specifically about blockades. But first, I just wonder if I could get your reaction to the president's decision earlier today not to send Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner to Pakistan. We know Iran had said they had no plans to meet with the Americans, and frankly have said in the past that they don't trust Witkoff and Kushner.

My colleague Nic Robertson, also reporting that Iran's foreign minister had said, we don't think the U.S. is serious. What does all this say to you about the potential for further talks?

JENNIFER KAVANAUGH, DIRECTOR FOR MILITARY ANALYST, DEFENSE PRIORITIES: Well, frankly, I'm not surprised that they were canceled. It wasn't clear to me what they were going to meet about. Doesn't seem like much progress has happened since the last meeting, which ended in a stalemate. That said, I do think it's unfortunate. It's unrealistic to think that one round of talks is going to solve the complex problems at the heart of this conflict. So I do think that getting back to the table and engaging in consistent diplomacy, maybe it's not at the level of Witkoff and Kushner, but other U.S. representatives alongside the Iranians and mediators is very important.

HILL: When it comes to the blockade, the president has expressed hope that this naval blockade would, in fact, force Iran to accept some of the United States' positions. You've said it's unlikely, that the president doesn't understand how a blockade works. How blockade has historically been successful?

KAVANAUGH: Well, blockades are very effective at increasing pressure on the blockaded country. It's just that they work slowly, building pressure over time. If we look back at history, the American Civil War, World War I, these wars involved blockades that imposed significant costs on the countries who faced the interdiction of their access to material, for their war effort, as well as food and other essentials.

But they were able to survive for years before they had to surrender. It wasn't a decisive factor when it came to their decision of when to give up. So in the case of Iran, it's likely to be similar. Iran is likely to be able to survive under this blockade for months, not weeks or days.

HILL: How much of that do you think the fact that Iran can survive for a longer period of time is also that we are potentially dealing with a regime that perhaps is not as concerned about inflicting additional pain on its people?

KAVANAUGH: I think that's definitely true. This is an existential war for the Iranian regime. They know that their survival is on the line. They're willing to pay extraordinary costs and to keep fighting to the end. Not only does that mean they're willing to impose costs on their population, but it also is very different than the approach and the sort of position that the United States is in.

But the United States, this wasn't a necessary war. The stakes aren't that high. And so if we're getting into a battle of wills here, Iran has the advantage. And it's just like we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan, where it's very -- the adversary is able to hang in there for longer than the United States is willing to.

HILL: Jennifer Kavanagh, good to have your perspective today, and I would encourage everyone to check out your piece in "The Times." Thank you.

Still ahead here, the high stakes standoff in the Big Apple. New York's tax the rich, New York's push to tax the rich sparking a billionaire threat to cancel a massive development project in the city.

[15:25:03]

We'll take a closer look at that drama unfolding right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HILL: A new tax in New York City sparking pushback from some of its wealthiest residents. The proposal from New York Governor Kathy Hochul would support New York Mayor Zohran Mamdani's efforts to close the city's budget gap, so the proposed tax would add a surcharge on second homes in the city that are worth $5 million or more, a tax that would include this property owned by billionaire Ken Griffin that was just featured in this video you see here from the mayor praising the plan.

Well, now Griffin's company is threatening to reconsider a multibillion dollar development in the city.

CNN's Gloria Pazmino is following all of these developments for us.

[15:30:03]

So not happy about that video. A lot of pushback on the tax itself. Where do things stand?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erica, in fact, let's start with the video because the video is certainly part of what helped kick off this back and forth between a major hedge fund owner and the mayor of the city of New York. The social media video, as you said, was made by Mayor Zohran Mamdani, and he filmed it outside of the home of Ken Griffin.

He is the CEO of Citadel, which is a major multinational hedge fund. And Griffin himself is a billionaire. In fact, he broke a record back in 2019 when he purchased that apartment, paying $238 million, which was at the time set a record for the most expensive home sold in U.S. history.

Now, Mamdani was making the point that people like Ken Griffin, who can afford to buy these apartments to be their second or third homes, should be taxed because they don't live there full time. Here's what the proposal, which Governor Kathy Hochul has included as part of her state budget, would do. Specifically, it would tax luxury homes that are worth more than $5 million. It is expected to generate at least $500 million per year.

And as I said, it would help close this $5 billion deficit that the city is facing. Now, you might remember Mamdani ran on a promise to raise taxes on the city's wealthiest residents, but it's only Kathy Hochul, the governor, and the state legislature, who actually have the power to do that. And she is not supportive of a tax on the wealthy. So she's putting forth this proposal as a way to help raise revenue.

Well, as you said, Erica, it has certainly gotten the attention of the city's wealthiest residents. The CFO of Citadel sent a letter to its employees this week, telling them, in part, quote, "The mayor has once again manifested the ignorance and disdain of the elite political class towards those who have been consistently committed to building one of the greatest cities in the world." The letter also suggested that Citadel may not move forward with a construction project in Midtown, which they said would bring thousands of jobs and millions of dollars in investment. They're basically saying, look, we are doing our part to make the city better and to contribute to the city's bottom line.

Mamdani was asked about it. He said he's willing to meet with Griffin, but that he did not regret making that video. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI, NEW YORK: As mayor, I will continue to work with business leaders, including Mr. Griffin, as partners in building a city that continues to be the economic engine, not just of this state, but also of this country. And none of that negates the fact that we have a tax system that is fundamentally broken, and one that is part of the reason why we live in both the wealthiest city in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, and also a city where 1 in 4 New Yorkers are living in poverty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAZMINO: And Erica, I think, you know, this episode that's playing out between the mayor and the city's not just the wealthy, but really the business sector. It shows you just how delicate this balance is for the mayor and for the governor as they try to find ways to raise revenue at a time that the city desperately needs it.

We should make it clear this tax proposal is not yet final. The state budget is still being negotiated, and the exact rate that people may be taxed is still up for discussion -- Erica.

HILL: Yes. And it will certainly be a big part of the discussion until any of that is settled.

Gloria, I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Still ahead here, Palestinians in Gaza heading to the polls for the first time in more than 20 years. What the rare election could reveal about who is in power now in the war devastated enclave, and also what it could say about Gaza's future.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:38:44]

HILL: Happening now, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordering his military to attack Hezbollah targets in Lebanon. That order coming after Israel says it intercepted several rockets and drones earlier today. Just two days ago, President Trump announced a three-week extension of the ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon.

Now, this is all unfolding on the same day as Palestinians were at the polls voting in local elections for the first time in two decades. That vote includes part of Gaza. Hamas was blocked from participating in the election.

This week, a federal appeals court threw out a support to ISIS conviction for a man who tried to detonate a pipe bomb in New York's Times Square subway station. In December of 2017, Akayed Ullah entered the station, detonated a pipe bomb that was strapped to his chest. Now you see that there, it did malfunction. Thankfully, it did not fully explode, sparing commuters but leaving Ullah with serious burns.

CNN's John Miller, who was then the deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism for the NYPD, was at the scene of the attack, and he had this exchange with Ullah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM GALATI, THEN NYPD CHIEF OF INTELLIGENCE: But you're sure now? There's nothing else that's going to hurt anybody else?

ULLAH: Nothing else.

MILLER: And did you do this -- did you do this for any particular group?

ULLAH: Yes.

MILLER: What group?

ULLAH: Islamic State.

MILLER: Islamic State?

ULLAH: Yes.

MILLER: What we would call ISIS?

ULLAH: Yes.

[15:40:01]

MILLER: And did you do it in response to any particular call?

ULLAH: Yes.

MILLER: Which one?

ULLAH: They say attack here.

MILLER: Attack here?

ULLAH: Yes.

MILLER: What does that mean?

ULLAH: Attack USA.

MILLER: Oh, attack U.S.?

ULLAH: Yes. That's right. Because over there, you guys bombing. You see a lot of people is dying over there. So if you do stop bombing, we don't have to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Ullah told John Miller ISIS inspired his attack. He was ultimately convicted on multiple charges, including providing material support to ISIS and sentenced to life in prison. The terrorism related conviction, though, was thrown out after it was ruled the evidence did not meet the legal standard to prove Ullah acted under ISIS control. He is still serving life in prison for other charges.

Joining us now, John Miller is here.

So, John, first of all, walk us through that moment. The fact that you were there, that you had that video. Walk us through what unfolded in that moment. And then I want to talk about your reaction to this conviction being thrown out.

MILLER: Sure, Erica. That day, December 11th, 2017, I was on my way to work. I heard a report of a suicide bombing in the subway. Responded immediately. I was met there by that first man you hear talking, Tom Galati, the chief of intelligence, and he's asking Ullah, this is a public safety interview, it's -- are there any other bombers out there? Is there anything else that's going to hurt somebody?

And my question is, are you part of a group, trying to get to the bottom of, could this be a multi-pronged attack? And he went right off into part of ISIS, I'm doing this for ISIS. He had watched a video that had come out just a couple of weeks before exhorting people on behalf of ISIS to attack America and take action. So it is interesting that he says he was working on behalf of ISIS, in support of ISIS, and the court seems to say he wasn't.

HILL: It's also, according to Justice Department -- the Justice Department in 2017, while he was in custody, he chanted more is coming. Also told a correctional officer, you started this war, we will finish it. More is coming. You'll see. Given that as well, I mean, how surprised are you that the appeals court would say this isn't sufficient evidence that he was actually acting on behalf of ISIS?

MILLER: Well, listen, I'm an investigator. I'm a journalist. I'm not a lawyer. But the appeals court seemed to be quite hung up on torturing the language of the statute and stuck on two words, which is that someone could be materially supporting ISIS if they supplied money, guns, weapons, so on, so on. But also they supplied personnel and the personnel could be the person themselves. So, so far we're in -- we're comporting with that law.

Where they got stuck was, and this is the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, two judges said that the law wrote in that you have to be under the direction and control of ISIS, and that if you're acting totally independently, then the statute doesn't apply.

What they're saying, Erica, is because he got the message from ISIS, acted on it, and did so for ISIS, the simple fact that he wasn't in touch with ISIS, that he didn't reach out to them and say, OK, I'm ready to go and they said, go, that that negates the statute. A third judge dissented on that and said, this is madness.

HILL: Yes.

MILLER: You've got this wrong. You're misreading the statute, and so on.

HILL: And it's raising a lot of questions. I know --

MILLER: By the way, the implication for other cases is that there are multiple people convicted under similar circumstances who could come behind this ruling, at least in the New York cases, and say, we want to appeal our convictions as well. And moreover, there are multiple new cases, Erica, including one you covered here, which was the two men who threw bombs at protesters outside Gracie Mansion just this past March who are charged with the same thing and were inspired by the same propaganda. So this could have outsized implications.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. It raises a significant number of legal questions, which you and I, of course, cannot answer. But our good friend, our chief legal analyst, Elie Honig, I would encourage anybody to check out what Elie has posted on this, because I think it does give us some insight into what potentially the fallout could be and it could be massive.

John, always appreciate it, my friend. Thank you.

MILLER: Thanks, Erica.

HILL: Just ahead here, President Trump is set to attend the White House Correspondents' Dinner tonight for the first time as commander- in-chief. So what can you expect not just from the president, but also from members of the administration sitting down for a meal with journalists?

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[15:49:12]

HILL: Fareed Zakaria is taking a look at the power of the presidency, which has been supersized under Donald Trump. But long before he entered the Oval Office, it's important to note the power had actually been growing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": As Donald Trump pushes the boundaries of presidential authority in his second term, it's important to remember that executive power has actually been expanding for decades, well beyond the founders' intentions.

In my latest special, I go back to examine how presidents on both sides of the aisle laid the groundwork for today's modern imperial presidency.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The imperial president, the autocratic leader.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Some Republicans call him the imperial president. That he's using executive powers to go beyond his true authority.

ZAKARIA (voice-over): The imperial president they were talking about? Barack Obama.

[15:50:05]

And in a way, the Republicans had a point.

BARACK OBAMA, 44TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We can't wait for an increasingly dysfunctional Congress to do its job. Where they won't act, I will.

There we go.

ZAKARIA (voice-over): President Obama was transforming the country, often with the stroke of a pen, and without Congress.

OBAMA: Thank you.

ZAKARIA (voice-over): It was a shocking turnaround for the former constitutional law professor who on the campaign trail had blasted George W. Bush's aggressive use of executive power.

OBAMA: We've paid a heavy price for having a president whose priority is expanding his own power. The Constitution is treated like a nuisance.

ZAKARIA: I hope you'll join me for this special report on presidential power.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAKARIA: And that special report, "THE IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY: A FAREED ZAKARIA SPECIAL," premieres tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. You can also find it the next day on the CNN app.

Well, it is a first in Washington. President Trump will be attending the White House Correspondents' Dinner as commander-in-chief. The first time he has done so. He, of course, has notoriously shunned the event for years now. And perhaps that's because the last time he was there was back in 2011, when he was the focus for some of Barack Obama's jokes from the stage. Here's a reminder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Now I know that he's taken some flak lately, but no one is happier. No one is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest than the Donald. And that's because he can finally get back to focusing on the issues that matter, like, did we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell? And where are Biggie and Tupac?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now, former "New York Times" media reporter Bill Carter.

Bill, good to see you as always. So as I understand it, you went once in the '80s, "The New York Times," though, has a long standing policy that its journalists do not attend. I have been a couple of times. It's been probably more than a decade since I was there. It's an event. There's no getting around that.

But I would say it has certainly shifted in the years, frankly, since Donald Trump's first term. What do you expect tonight?

BILL CARTER, FORMER NEW YORK TIMES MEDIA REPORTER: Well, it's going to be interesting. I mean, because Trump is going to be there people are going to have, I think, a different approach. They're not going to be quite as in his face as they might have been if he wasn't there. You're not going to have a comedian that's going to specifically go after him. And his remarks should be very interesting because, you know, generally speaking, the president has come up and been funny, has joke writers and tells jokes and kind of can be self-deprecating.

Trump doesn't usually do that. He doesn't make comments about himself too much that aren't positive. So it'll be interesting to see if he throws down a little red meat for, you know, him to talk about the fake media, the fake news media, or his usual code words, or whether he'll be a little bit conciliatory. It would be smart if he was, because I think the whole idea tonight is let's try to be, you know, civil for a change.

And I think people would appreciate that. And he'll get better reviews if he does that. But it is in his personality to do that. So it's going to be very interesting.

HILL: Karoline Leavitt yesterday said this was going to be a speech for the entire country. To your point, though, I mean, look, this is a president who can deliver really well on a stage, right? He can be an entertainer, but he's also notoriously thin skinned. There will not be a comedian there to roast him as other presidents have sat through. Instead, he will be doing the roasting. And this is a man who, when met with a question that he doesn't like immediately in many cases, resorts to name calling, has sued a number of the news organizations in the room.

There has been a push for a boycott. There wasn't one, right, by most news organizations, but there's also been a push for reaction among the journalists in the room. I mean, what are you watching for in terms of those moments, how journalists and their bosses will respond?

CARTER: I think it's very interesting. If he does come out and tries to be pugilistic, let's say, with the press, I expect them to be hostile. I think they shouldn't just sit there and take it. Unfortunately, their track record is not very good on this. You know, when the president has turned to a female reporter in the press group and called her a pig in front of them, they haven't all stepped up and say, sir, that's incredibly rude and wrong. You shouldn't be doing that.

No one has come to the defense of people like that, so it'll be out of character for them to sort of react in a, let's say, negative way to his comments. I think they should. I think they -- this is about the First Amendment and no president ever has been as hostile to the First Amendment as this gentleman. [15:55:05]

You know, he's keeping people out of the Pentagon. He's telling the AP, you're going to be ostracized because you don't call it the Gulf of Mexico. That kind of nonsense. And he's done -- and he sued them, and he's done all this, and they can't just be placid and kind of sit back. They have to acknowledge, no, we don't agree with this. And so if he does come out that way, I expect them to react. I think they should react in a way that shows they don't agree.

HILL: We will be watching. There is certainly, I would say the focus is just as intense on everybody in that room as it is on the president tonight.

Bill, good to see you. Thank you.

CARTER: Good to see you.

HILL: Well, tonight you can watch how it all unfolds. Be sure to join us here on CNN. This is one of the biggest nights in Washington. All the people watching. The White House Correspondents' Dinner airs live tonight at 8:00 p.m. right here on CNN. You can also catch it on the CNN app.

Thanks so much for spending part of your day with me. I'm Erica Hill. Stay tuned. "THE ARENA" begins after a short break.

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