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CNN Live Saturday

American Forces Report Hearing bin Laden's Voice on Short Wave Radio

Aired December 15, 2001 - 15:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: We want to spend some more time right now on the reports that American forces have heard the voice of Osama bin Laden in the Tora Bora area. The question now, how do officials really know it was bin Laden? Joining us from Little Rock, Arkansas, our military analyst retired General Wesley Clark. Good afternoon, general.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good afternoon, Carol.

LIN: All right, this was a late breaking report this afternoon. What is the United States is claiming is that Osama bin Laden's voice was overheard on short-wave radio in the Tora Bora region giving commands to his al Qaeda fighters. They say that they have been able to do some voice matching. How sure are they? Or how sure really can they be that it is Osama bin Laden?

CLARK: Well, I don't think anything is 100 percent certain, but I think it is possible. After all, he has made a number of tapes over the years, he has sent us his television shots, and so we have got plenty of recordings of his voice. The human ear can listen to it and listen to the short wave radios, and we have people who can interpret that and confirm that that's his voice. It can also be done electronically by matching voice prints, and so we have got some confidence, I would say, that that is his voice. Otherwise, it would never have been -- that information would not have been released.

LIN: You know, and I wonder how reliable the information could be over short wave radio, because I am -- as you know by now, CNN has been able to key in on those al Qaeda frequencies, and al Qaeda clearly knows that CNN can do that, because Ben Wedeman, our correspondent in the region, has actually spoken to them. So, how likely could it be that this is some sort of ruse of the al Qaeda fighters there to try to convince people that bin Laden may still be in the area when obviously they have been so many reports that he has escaped Tora Bora?

CLARK: It is potentially a ruse, but probably not, for two reasons. Number one, these fighters really are under a lot of pressure. I think they are having a very hard time struggling to stay alive as their encirclement is being tightened, and the ordinance is continuing to fall on them. And secondly, not clear that at this point they are going to gain much advantage by trying to portray Osama bin Laden as being there. Certainly, that's going to increase the tension against them.

But no one is relaxing that I would imagine as relaxing in the encirclement. Broader, the Pakistanis are coming off the border. The U.S. aircraft overhead are not relaxing in terms of trying to catch anyone who would be escaping from this encirclement. So my guess is they are struggling for survival, and it is probably not a ruse.

LIN: Do you find it interesting that after all this time the focus in the area of Tora Bora that suddenly bin Laden decides to take to the radio waves and talk to the fighters himself?

CLARK: Well, I find it interesting first if he is still there that he is still there. I had always thought that he would try to make a stand and then having seen that it wasn't going to be effective in really bringing any destruction on the Americans that he would buck out and try to get somewhere else.

So, if he is still there and if he has suffered the losses that it is apparent that he has suffered, he may be -- he may down in desperation and really trying to hold together his forces and prevent it from surrendering. I am sure that there are a lot of people in that force who are having second thoughts about what they are doing.

I mean, look at it from their perspective, Carol. They cannot touch the aircraft overhead. They have no anti-aircraft systems, nothing can be changed. This is -- this is ordinance coming from the sky that they are powerless to stop. They can't draw in the forces around them so they can use their machine guns effectively. They don't have any mortars that are effective. They don't have any observers out there. They are just waiting and being squeezed in and pounded from the sky. They have got to feel that it's hopeless.

LIN: All right. So, let's say they are cornered, let's say bin Laden is still there and let's say the ultimate finally happens, and special forces or these Afghan opposition fighters actually encounter him. What are the rules of engagement? What does -- what do these people do with bin Laden at that point?

CLARK: Well, he is a combatant. And if he surrenders and makes an obvious gesture of surrendering, his surrender will be accepted. And if he resists and poses a threat to the forces, he will be engaged, just like any other combatant would be.

LIN: Well, do U.S. forces -- do you know whether -- are they under orders shoot to kill if they encounter bin Laden?

CLARK: No, I would not think so. I mean, they have got the rules of engagement to use hostile -- use necessary force against the enemy. So, if the enemy is a threat, then they will engage. If the enemy is surrendering, they are going to accept the surrender. There will be maybe some ambiguity about it, but they'll be looking at his hands, they'll be looking at his gestures, they're going to see if he is armed. If he makes a threat and he poses a threat to them, they are certainly authorized to deal with him.

LIN: All right. Let's talk about what potentially could be a public relations nightmare, and obviously Osama bin Laden knows something about public relations, given all these videotapes he has generated. What about a strategy of going to a very public place and surrendering? I mean, wouldn't that be a political nightmare for the United States, for Osama bin Laden to wage a public relations jihad, take me to trial, put me on the world stage, let me get my message out?

CLARK: Well, I think it's an arguable point. I -- there are two schools of thought on this. One school of thought is, look, he is obviously guilty. If you let him come up on trial and you let him mobilize opinion, you will cause yourself a lot of trouble and you may not be able to get a conviction in court.

But there is another school that says there is plenty of evidence against him. We have handled evidence that was taken by secret means before, we have used it in courts of law. And what could be better than bringing all this information against him publicly, discrediting him? Watch -- I mean, Slobodan Milosevic is in The Hague right now. He's going to be brought to trial it will be a public trial, and all that evidence is going to be laid out, and it's the way that the international justice system is supposed to work.

LIN: All right, we shall see. Thank you very much, General Wesley Clark, for joining us this hour.

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