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CNN Live Saturday

U.S., Afghan Forces Target Taliban, al Qaeda Near Gardez

Aired March 02, 2002 - 17:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And now back to our top story, that military operation in Afghanistan. CNN's Jonathan Aiken is at the Pentagon, and he joins us live with details on that. Hi there, Jonathan.

JONATHAN AIKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fredricka. We know that three people, one American, two Afghan fighters are dead and what U.S. military calls "an unspecified number wounded" as U.S. and Afghan forces continue to target Taliban and al Qaeda troops in eastern Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AIKEN (voice-over): The largest offensive by U.S. and Afghan forces so far this year has already resulted in U.S. and Afghan casualties. The fighting targeted al Qaeda and Taliban forces in a mountainous region of eastern Afghanistan, near the city of Gardez.

MAJ. A.C. ROPER, SPOKESMAN, 101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION: For some time now, coalition forces and Afghan forces have been conducting operations in eastern Afghanistan to eliminate al Qaeda and Taliban forces that we have identified in the region.

AIKEN: A force of up to 600 Afghan fighters, joined by an advanced team of Americans, launched an assault on suspected al Qaeda positions, which were the focus of heavy bombing by B-52 and U.S. fighter aircraft since Friday night. Reports from civilians say more U.S. bombers were seen heading back to the region late Saturday.

Afghan troops seen retreating from their positions Saturday say they were outnumbered and outgunned by al Qaeda forces, who defended the high ground with heavy mortar and machine gun fire. More U.S. troops are arriving in the region, led by elements of the 101st Airborne Division based in Kandahar, and some Special Forces units operating in eastern Afghanistan.

Other choppers are coming from Bagram air base and other facilities near the capital of Kabul, to aid in operation U.S. military officials say could last some time, and what a Pentagon spokeswoman on Friday called "an ongoing concern."

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: We have said all along it is not over, it is not over in Afghanistan, and that for some time there will be pockets of resistance in a variety of places, that there would be al Qaeda, there would be firefights, there would be lots of things, different sizes and shapes. Those are the kinds of things we're referring to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AIKEN: Something new to report too. As we've been reporting within the past hour, the U.S. military confirmed the use of a new weapon in this campaign. It's a new kind of bunker buster, something called a thermobaric weapon, a thermobaric bomb, this was very new. In fact, it was rushed into production to be used in the Afghan campaign. We have been told there are, in fact, very few of them available for the U.S. military to use.

U.S. military officials today told us that two were used against a cave near the city of Gardez. Now, what made that site so important to warrant the use of two weapons that are in such short supply, frankly, Fredricka, we don't know.

I do want to clear up something that I told you in the last time we talked about this within the last hour, just to clear up any confusion. This is not a combination of a fireball and intense air pressure that's used inside these caves. These bombs are basically designed to penetrate the caves and other fortified sites, and by creating extra pressure in the atmosphere inside the cave, essentially they push everything out. So it's not a question of being incinerated. This is more a question of being pressed by extra pressure within the atmosphere, and that expels you from the cave openings, and that's what makes this bomb different than, let's say, the daisy cutter, which creates a big fireball and was used to a great effect up in Tora Bora.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks very much for that clarification there, Jonathan. Good explanation on a pretty complicated matter there. From the Pentagon.

For more on the strategy behind this U.S. and Afghan offensive near Gardez, we're joined in Washington by defense policy analyst David Isby. Thanks again for joining us on this.

DAVID ISBY, DEFENSE POLICY ANALYST: Good afternoon.

WHITFIELD: We're learning a little bit more on the arsenal now, particularly as Jonathan was just talking about, this thermobaric explosive being used. What do you read into the fact that the U.S. is using something that the Pentagon admits is already in limited supply in this effort, war effort, in Afghanistan?

ISBY: Well, this is a new weapon. It's officially known as a BOU-118b, and about 10 of them were quickly put together and rushed to the region in the last few months. This weapon is used against high- priority caves. This is a part of the world where there are many cave-like positions, many of them dating to the war against the Soviets. Our main opponent in that part of Afghanistan, Jalaladin Khakani (ph), has very large cave positions, most especially at Zawal (ph), which were attacked recently. WHITFIELD: This being part of the arsenal, what are some of the other weaponries that would likely be used in what is now being called a ground and air offensive in Afghanistan, in the eastern region, and apparently the largest mobilization involving the U.S. and Afghan troops since December?

ISBY: Well, it would basically be, aside from the 118, the same bombs that we used against Tora Bora, a wide variety of those. But the most important thing is literally the guys on the ground with the laser designators, which provide precision munition delivery and, also, the people to give human intelligence, to decide which caves need the bombs and which don't.

WHITFIELD: And in a case like this, when you've got U.S. forces combined with Afghan forces now battling against what we're told from Pentagon sources as many as 5,000 al Qaeda forces, how do you have this kind of cooperation, when clearly the Afghans have a different type of training than the U.S. forces? How do you have a collaborative effort that's also a safe effort involving these very different backgrounds?

ISBY: This is a very difficult thing, and fortunately it's something which our Special Forces of the U.S. Army are very good at. It dates back to 1991 in the Gulf War, when they served in the same way with armies like the Syrians that are very different. They did this very effectively in November, December, working with the Afghans. It requires a lot of tact and diplomacy, and our junior officers and NCOs have by and large bridged that cultural gap very effectively in past months.

WHITFIELD: At the same time, what do you see as the major obstacles by having this kind of collaboration?

ISBY: I think it's a good thing. Certainly the U.S. cannot really be in charge. We can suggest the direction the Afghans can take, but since it's an Afghan war against Afghans and al Qaeda, they're really going to have to make the ultimate decision.

WHITFIELD: Really? Even though this is really a U.S.-led effort?

ISBY: Don't tell that to the Afghans. It's their country. They say the U.S. are our guests, they are not our masters. So, no, don't tell the Afghans it's a U.S. effort. They'll disagree with you. This is of the orders of Chairman Karzai and the interim government, not on behalf of Washington.

WHITFIELD: So when you talk about intelligence, though, it really does appear that it has too be reliant upon the U.S. intelligence, and seems the Americans really have the right kind of hardware and supplies in order to lead the intelligence effort?

ISBY: But it's also the Afghans who have the eyes on the ground, the people who can tell you, we filled water bottles for Arabs in that cave over there, not that cave down there. A bunch of ugly Arabs living up there. Bomb them. And the U.S., of course, has had problems of dealing with this intelligence in the past, but there's really no substitute for it. All the eyes in the sky won't give you that sort of information.

WHITFIELD: All right. Good job. Thanks very much, David Isby, for joining us from Washington on that analysis. Appreciate it.

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