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CNN Live Saturday

Interview with Meyrav Wurmser, Mark Perry

Aired March 16, 2002 - 22:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: It remains to be seen whether Israeli and Palestinian leaders will meet tomorrow, to try and broker a cease-fire. Palestinians are holding firm to their position that there will be no talks until Israeli groups withdraw from Palestinian- controlled -- from areas there. What's the likelihood that both sides will be able to reach and comply with a cease-fire?

Joining us now from Washington with some insights is Meyrav Wurmser. She's from the Hudson Institute. And Mark Perry, the author of "Fire in Zion." Thank you both for joining on this Saturday night.

MEYRAV WURMSER, HUDSON INSTITUTE: Thank you.

MARK PERRY, AUTHOR, "FIRE IN ZION": Thank you.

CALLAWAY: First let me start with you, Ms. Wurmser, if you're feeling optimistic at all about what is being offered today by Israel and the possibility of a meeting to talk about a cease-fire.

WURMSER: I'm certainly optimistic about the very idea that the sides will be talking. I'm less optimistic about the results. We have been in this kind of a juncture before, where the sides sat and met and have talked. The question is what is new in these talks? And it seems like little is relatively new.

What else can be talked about? What else can Israel offer now that Prime Minister Barak has not offered at the beginning of this violence, the beginning of this intifada?

CALLAWAY: Mr. Perry, I'll let you respond to that. And indeed, back in I guess it was 2000, July of 2000, Ehud Barak did offer to give back most, but not all of the area that was occupied back in the 1967/'68 war. What else would Arafat want besides that? And would we ever see that offered again?

PERRY: Well, I'm optimistic in the short-term. Clearly, Mr. Zinni's doing a good job. It shows the United States is re-engaged. But I agree that there has to be, even Mr. Sharon agrees, some kind of political horizon there. That means a political solution.

And unless there's a movement towards a political solution at the same time there's negotiations over a cease-fire, I'm afraid that any cease-fire will break down. And let's not rewrite history with Camp David. There was no real offer on the table. What we have on the table right now is the Saudi proposal. I think it is very good proposal. And it really talks about the occupation, as well as the violence. And it offers Israel complete recognition by the Arab countries.

I think the United States should be pushing this proposal.

CALLAWAY: Ms. Wurmser, Mr. Perry doesn't want to bring up the Camp David proposal. Do you think it was a legitimate proposal?

WURMSER: Not only do I think so, but the president of the United States, Bill Clinton, at the time certainly thought so and have blamed Mr. Arafat squarely for the failure of that plan.

As to the Saudi plan, I believe that it has relatively little new to offer. Over the last few weeks, we saw a change in that plan. But now, it includes a complete Israeli withdrawal from the Golan Heights, as well as the return of Palestinian refugees. And so, it's in fact a non-starter from Israeli perspective.

CALLAWAY: Perry, how -- Mr. Perry, how far are we to seeing the Palestinians at the table tomorrow, do you think?

PERRY: Well, the Palestinians have said that they're willing to meet with Mr. Sharon, but they haven't actually gotten invitation yet. Mr. Sharon says...

CALLAWAY: But there's also that stipulation that has been thrown out there that, you said earlier, that they would have to withdraw from those Palestinian-controlled areas. Could we not...

PERRY: It's clear that the Israeli army has to withdraw from the refugee camps and the major Palestinian cities or there won't be a cease-fire. And I think this is key. This is what Dr. Arakot, the Palestinian negotiator, said today and quite rightly. There has to be a parallel track, a political negotiations. There has to be some hope for the Palestinian people, that at the end of this process, there won't just be an abatement of the violence, which is in the interest of both sides, but that there will be a political hope, that there will be a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders, that Israel has occupied for 35 years.

And I must say, I disagree with my colleague. The Saudi proposal is quite simple. Full and complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territory. It's an exchange for a complete and total recognition.

Now everyone says that hasn't -- the details haven't been filled in, but once we stumbled over now for the last three years are the details. Here is a very simple proposal. The United States has endorsed the proposal. I hope that Dick Cheney is today in Saudi Arabia, is also going to endorse the proposal. We can move forward.

CALLAWAY: Ms. Wurmser, you want to respond?

WURMSER: Yes. Well, as to the Saudi proposal, I believe that as a Saudi colleague told me recently, it was put on the table because Saudi Arabia was feeling the heat coming from Washington after the events of September 11. Let's not forget that the majority of the suicide bombers were Saudis and Saudi Arabia came under massive attack in the American press and media. And so, it had to come forth a plan of some sort, that would take the heat off of it.

And if they did that, I believe that the plan is a non-starter because the moment you include the right of return in it, obviously, it would mean the destruction of the state of Israel as a Jewish state. And no Israeli government, whatsoever, is likely to accept that.

And so, I think that we will not see this, thinking that's anywhere new, even though it seems for the moment to bring some hope.

CALLAWAY: Mr. Perry, I'll give you the last word. Ms. Wurmser had the first.

PERRY: There's nothing about the right of return in the Saudi proposal whatsoever. And we could argue all day about why the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia put forward the proposal. I think we have to look at it at face value. Does it offer some hope? Should we get behind it? I think anyone now, who talks about a political solution in the Middle East will forward the progress that we have there. Without talk of some kind of political solution, I'm afraid that a cease-fire that is being negotiated now by General Zinni will break down. That would be terrible for both sides.

CALLAWAY: Indeed, the devil may be in the details in this. Let's at least hope they get to the negotiating table. Thank you both for being with us. Meyrav Wurmser from the Hudson Institute, thank you very much. Mark Perry, thank you for being with us on this Saturday night. It will be interesting 48 hours to see what happens next, won't it?

PERRY: Yes, it will.

WURMSER: Absolutely.

CALLAWAY: Thank you both. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com