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CNN Live Saturday

Interview with Hasan Abdel Rahman, Alon Pinkas

Aired April 27, 2002 - 22:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: For weeks, we've been talking about the Middle East, showing you the violence and the destruction there. And today, more violence. Israelis say the Palestinian gunmen took aim at a Jewish settlement near Hebron, killing four people, including a five-year old girl. And a United Nations team is heading to what is left of the Jenin refugee camp.

Joining me now to begin our discussion, Hasan Abdel Rahman, who is of course, the chief Palestinian representative to the United States.

Mr. Rahman, thank you for being with us tonight.

HASAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REP. TO THE UNITED STATES: Thank you for having me.

CALLAWAY: There's been another delay in the U.N. mission. Now another 18 delay -- 18 hour delay. Will these delays really make a difference in what the U.N. group eventually finds?

RAHMAN: Well, it's obvious that Israelis trying to undermine the work of the commission before the starts. We have heard reports that Israelis asking that reports should not be made public, that it should not provide any grounds for prosecution of Israeli commandos. If they found -- engaged in war crimes, then what kind of report --

CALLAWAY: But let me interrupt you here.

RAHMAN: Yes.

CALLAWAY: What Israel was actually asking for was that they wanted more military forensic, more counterterrorism experts on this team, as opposed to more humanitarian representatives. What is wrong with that requests? What -- why do you oppose that type of request?

RAHMAN: Well, we did not oppose it. This was a commission that was formed by the Secretary General of the United Nation upon a mandate that was given to him by the Security Council. Israel should not interfere with the work of the Security Council. If Israel wants to appoint the commission, they might want to also to report the report for the commission.

CALLAWAY: But do you really think that they're going to have influence on what the U.N. committee eventually finds? RAHMAN: Well, I hope they don't, but if they are exerting pressure like they are doing today, and some U.S. senators like Schumer are writing to the Secretary General, asking him that the report of the commission should not be made public, and that it should not be grounds for conviction of Israeli commandos if they are found engaged in war crimes. Then what kind of report and what kind of work this commission is going to be doing?

CALLAWAY: If the committee indeed finds war crimes, it would be made public. Let me go back to what Colin Powell said in testimony earlier this week, congressional testimony. He said that so far, he's seeing no evidence of mass graves, that he's seeing no evidence that would suggest that a massacre took place. Granted this is before the U.N. investigation, but your response to Colin Powell's comments?

RAHMAN: Well, I refer him to the -- to his assistant, Mr. William Burns, who visited the refugee camp and said what he saw was beyond belief. Let me point to something...

CALLAWAY: But he said the destruction was beyond belief, but he did not...

RAHMAN: Yes, but also this destruction was made by helicopters and by tanks and by bulldozers, bulldozing homes over inhabitants. We've pulled out of the rubble 16 people alive, two weeks after they were buried, and the others of their homes. So what we are talking here about -- I'm not going to get involved in semantics, whether that is a massacre or not because I don't know what makes a massacre. If you kill five people, 50, 100, 2,000?

CALLAWAY: Well, let me ask you this...

RAHMAN: Or the method...

CALLAWAY: What changes in the U.N. mission would you make, so that this would be what you consider a fair investigation?

RAHMAN: No, we are not objecting to the commission. We trust the Secretary General of the United Nations. And we want the commission to do its work as soon as possible and make its report public. And no restrictions should be made on the commission. We are aware of what happened. There are reports from the international Red Cross, from Israeli Human Rights Organizations that really Israel was engaged in war crimes by not allowing humanitarian aid to the wounded, by attacking indiscriminately civilian targets.

There was a report yesterday by a reservist, an Israeli in "The Washington Post," who said we had instructions to put a bullet in every window. In other words, not to look at the identity of the people we shoot at. That is indiscriminate shooting.

CALLAWAY: Well, let me ask you one final question here because we're running out of time.

RAHMAN: Yes?

CALLAWAY: But have you recently been in contact with Yasser Arafat? And if so, what has he said?

RAHMAN: I had contact this afternoon, in fact, with the director of his office. Yasser Arafat is under siege, he and his colleagues. He's surrounded by the Israeli army. He's harassed. The situation is horrific in the compound where Arafat is kept under siege.

This is illegal. There are two resolutions of the Security Council, demanding from Israel to lift the siege. Israel is defying the will of the international community. Israel is in violation of international law.

CALLAWAY: Mr. Hasan Abdel Rahman, I hate to cut you off. We're running out of time, but thank you very much for joining us.

RAHMAN: Thank you for having me.

CALLAWAY: And giving your reaction tonight. Thank you for being with us.

And some insight now from the Israelis. We welcome Alon Pinkas. He's of course the counsul general to Israel. He's joining us from New York.

Thanks for being with us this evening.

ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: Thank you. Hello, Catherine.

CALLAWAY: Hello. I want to start with you about the situation with the U.N. fact-finding mission. I know that the president of Syria has said that peace talks with Israel should not even occur until these so-called, what he called war crimes have been investigated. And if Israel's overall goal here is for peace in that region, why not complete openness in this Jenin case?

PINKAS: Well, first of all, I'm happy that you mentioned the president of Syria, a moral compass to all the peoples of the world, of course. The man who's father murdered 20,000 Syrian residents in the city of Hama (ph) in 1982, but that's really besides the point.

Jenin, there was no massacre. There was no -- there were no atrocities. There were less than 50 people killed. Mr. Abdel Rahman, whom you just interviewed on this very network, claimed that there was a massacre and that 1,500 people and then 1,000 and then 500 were actually massacred.

Massacre is about intent. Massacre is when you indiscriminately kill civilians or unarmed people. Of those bodies that have been claimed, 50, 47 have been armed and uniformed. As for Jenin, we have nothing to hide. We welcome the fact-finding commission.

CALLAWAY: All right.

PINKAS: The problem that we had, Catherine, just let me complete the sentence, the problem that we had with this commission was that its terms of reference or absence thereof of any terms of reference made it very peculiar to us that this is not about investigating what really went on in Jenin in the refugee camp, where refugees, Palestinians, were held hostage by their own militias. Rather, it meant to indict on a political basis, the Israeli military commanders on the field, on the ground.

CALLAWAY: Let me move on here to the meeting that's planned later on with Mr. Sharon meeting with his top security advisers. In light of what has happened now in the Jewish settlement, is that going to have any effect on the meeting on what is done? And also, will there be any reprisals?

PINKAS: Of course, it's going to have an effect. This shows why we could not have completed this operation as soon as the world expected us to. When someone goes into a room, and looks a five-year old girl in the face and then shoots her with 17 bullets, that's something that's not going to go unretaliated. What exactly it is that we're going to do, I don't know. It depends on the local military commanders, and of course, the orders they get from the cabinet.

This is what we're up against. This is why we've initiated this military operation three weeks ago.

CALLAWAY: Right.

PINKAS: This is something that Arafat could have prevented, had he stood up, as Secretary of State Powell asked him to, and said lay down your weapons. I will not accept violence. You don't need to live in the plaza in New York. You could live in the compound in Ramallah and still say it.

CALLAWAY: The meeting that's scheduled between the Palestinians and the Israelis tomorrow, concerning the situation the Church of the Nativity, what exactly does Israel want to end this long standoff?

PINKAS: It's unfortunate that it's gotten to this point. Hopefully, these -- this -- tomorrow's round of talks will yield some kind of fruit. There are 30 people who are wanted, who found refuge in the Church of Nativity. They are holding nuns, priests, and teenagers hostages. We have offered them a way out to Gaza, and a way out from the entire region, provided they lay down their weapons. They could be escorted out through the U.N. or whomever. They have refused to do so. And the standoff is only a result of our restraint and conscious decision not to do anything that would even scathe the corner of the building of the Church of Nativity.

This is a building that means too much to too many people around the world for us to play games around.

CALLAWAY: There had been an offer, apparently, by Hezbollah leaders to trade prisoners. Some Israelis soldiers reportedly captured in 2000 in exchange for the Palestinians. Is this even a proposal that Israel cabinet would consider?

PINKAS: No, I don't think so. Hezbollah has been known to cynically abuse and manipulate public opinion by making these ridiculous claims for many years. They have never allowed access to the Israelis. They have kidnapped the Israeli civilian, three Israeli soldiers. They have never provided evidence that they are alive. Every second week, they come up with an idea to exchange something for something. This is a terror organization that defies the government of Lebanon, that is being supported heavily by the same president of Syria that you mentioned in the beginning, Catherine.

CALLAWAY: Right.

PINKAS: And heavily funded by the Iranians. Nothing they say should be taken seriously.

CALLAWAY: I have to give equal time to both sides, sir. I have to end it there. Alon Pinkas, thank you very much for joining us tonight and giving us your thoughts.

PINKAS: Thank you, Catherine.

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