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CNN Live Saturday

Some Israeli Soldiers Refuse To Take Part in West Bank Operations; Interview with David Horovitz

Aired April 27, 2002 - 22:41   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: Israel's military campaign in the West Bank has Israelis themselves deeply divided. Some in the Israeli army are agonizing over it, to the point of refusing to take part.

And CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour has their story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In February, a group of Israeli soldiers started a campaign, refusing to serve in the West Bank in Gaza, declaring Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories "unethical, unbearable and unjustified." To date, 435 reserve soldiers have signed on. It's a small number, and they are seemingly out of step with a massive response to Israel's call up for Operation Defensive Shield.

This is how pediatrician David Zangen sees it. He was amongst the majority who came to serve, as chief medical officer for the Israeli combat units in Jenin.

DAVID ZANGEN, RESERVE MEDICAL OFFICER: I was so proud of our own people, because the show-up for this operation was over 100 percent, everybody wanted to volunteer, everyone understood that he defends his own home, his own children, and everybody came. There was no such situations as somebody refused; in all our divisions, there were none, not one that did not show up.

AMANPOUR: But Noam Shizaf refused to go to Jenin, and he has just emerged from punishment in prison.

NOAM SHIZAF, RESERVE LT. INFANTRY: I appreciate the people who went there. These are my friends, and some of them were hurt and they paid a great price personally, and they put their life in danger, and they believed they were doing the right thing.

I disagree on their way and I disagree on the way our government is using our willingness to serve in doing things that does not serve the interests of the Israeli people, but serve the interests of the politicians, of the government, of the Likud Party and of Sharon personally. AMANPOUR: Noam and a group of his fellow refuseniks gathered to talk to us about why they have decided to become conscientious objectors.

This is not a radical left wing group of pacifists, they say. They are all active reservists, all combat soldiers, who, like David Zonshein, have fought and will continue to fight external wars of aggression.

DAVID ZONSHEIN, RESERVE LT. PARATROOPERS: I think that occupying the territories is very bad for Israel and very bad for Israeli interests.

AMANPOUR (on camera): The people who disagree with you say that you are a traitor to your country.

ZONSHEIN: I'm not a traitor. This is ridiculous to call me a traitor. A traitor -- I fought Hezbollah not once, not twice, I sacrificed my life not once or twice.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): David co-founded this movement, which also has support from non-combatants throughout the country.

Professor Ariel Rubenstein, winner of this year's prestigious Israel Prize.

PROF. ARIEL RUBENSTEIN, PRINCETON AND TEL AVIV UNIVERSITIES: You know, a nation needs bodyguards and the nation needs soul guards. For me, these are the soul guards of the Jewish people. I am an Israeli, I am a Zionist, but first of all I am a Jew. Jewish people cannot afford, the Jewish people cannot afford to be occupiers of other people.

AMANPOUR: Nil Gov no longer wants to enforce the occupation.

NIL GOV, RESERVE 1ST SGT. INFANTRY: In one word, they are not free, and you are not free also just by being their occupier. The fact that you can stop any car along the road if there happens to be a roadblock, take any person out of these cars, line them up against the side of the road, look through their luggage and make them feel like they are worthless, and your gun is pointed at them and they are just nothing and you have all the power. And something like that happens day after day, year after year, for -- what -- 35 years now. This is what I object against.

AMANPOUR: Ben-Ami Gov is Nil's father, a highly decorated retired air force colonel. He has fought in every war since '48. It took him a long time to accept and support his son's actions, but he says he has now come to the conclusion that Israel's occupation and settlements are a historic mistake.

BEN-AMI GOV, AIR FORCE COL. (RET.): At the same time, I am against the actions of the Palestinians. I am against the terror. I think that the terror is bad, has no moral justification. But at the same time, I looked at these guys and I said, they are touching at the most sensitive consensus and ethos of the Israeli existence, and this is the army. For us, the army, the defense forces was always outside any argument, of any discussion, and we always looked at the army as the savior of the existence of Israel. If they take the courage, if they are ready to risk their future, their career and everything, and including to go to jail, in order to shock the system, I must support them.

AMANPOUR: Indeed the point of their action, says Amit Mashiah, is to try to stir up an internal debate, even now in this moment of national crisis.

AMIT MASHIAH, RESERVE STAFF SGT. ARTILLERY: We serve as a pressure group. We are a constant reminder to our leaders that there is no military solution to this problem.

AMANPOUR (on camera): Do you think it will work, given your relatively few numbers?

MASHIAH: We believe there is no other solution. We believe that eventually an agreement will be achieved. We believe that both leaders today are incapable of achieving that agreement, and therefore they drag their people into this bloodshed.

N. GOV: I think that by refusing, I state that there is an option for the Israeli people and for the Palestinians to act differently than the way their government asks them to act. This is a message for both people. We don't have to do, we don't have to go on with this fighting. I expect Palestinians to act the same way as much as they can.

MASHIAH: If you want to live in Israel, it's because you care, because there are places that are far less difficult to live in. And I think what unites all of the Israeli people is that they care. They care about their country, they care about society, and we do as well. And this is exactly why we believe that our fight is crucial for Israel's future.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CALLAWAY: So can these contentious objectors ignite a national debate over the incursion's morality?

CNN's Jerrold Kessel asked Israeli journalist David Horovitz.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID HOROVITZ, EDITOR, JERUSALEM REPORT: I don't think they're mainstream people. I think they're very marginal people. We're talking about a few hundred people at a time when there was a call up of tens of thousands. And more people than were called, turned out. I think most Israelis feel that these people, these refuseniks, if you like, are tragically misguided. They feel that if they want to oppose the occupation, then do this through the political process. Most Israelis think that the 18 months, 19 months of intifadah is not merely against the occupation, which they feel the last Israeli government actually tried to end. They think it's an effort to end Israel. And they believe these soldiers are really playing into Israel's enemy's hands.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So is it unlikely to be a growing phenomena, even if say you get more attacks like the attack today, which means that perhaps this massive military operation in the West Bank in the Palestinians cities, was not all that successful.

HOROVITZ: I don't think you're going to see a huge increase in people doing that. I think you are going to feel, particularly if the Palestinians, you see, if all along, they had targeted merely settlements, then I think you would've had an incredible debate in Israel about the issue of the occupation and so no. But the very fact that most of these attacks were taking place in suicide bombers, taking place in Netanyu and Tel Aviv and Haifa, that convinced most Israelis that there was no other conclusion for them to draw, other than this was an effort, not merely to end the occupation, but to end Israel.

And unless they see a real shift on the Palestinian side, and from the international community, they want to see the international community, instead of badgering Ariel Sharon to bring out the troops, to stop trying to prevent bombings, they want international pressure directed at the Palestinian leadership. They want the international community to say to Yasser Arafat, you cannot pre-arrange a tax on civilians.

Then if there were a shift on the Palestinian side, then I think you'd start to feel real debate inside Israel.

KESSEL: Does Israel feel these officers and these refuseniks are traitors?

HOROVITZ: I'm sure some people do. I think most people feel -- I mean, we're not really interested here in banding around demonic terminology. Most Israelis think they're misguided. They think they've been foolish. They're misunderstanding the full picture here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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