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CNN Live Saturday

Interview with Indian Gautam Adhikari and Pakistani Nayyar Zaidi

Aired June 01, 2002 - 17:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Mr. Musharraf's assertion that nothing is happening across the line of control is being challenged. In fact, India blames the Pakistani president for not doing enough to rein in militants who've infiltrated Indian-controlled Kashmir.

For more on that, here is CNN's New Delhi bureau chief, Satinder Bindra.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ready for war. These Indian soldiers have just completed their training and could soon be dispatched to the line of control which divides the disputed territory of Kashmir between India and Pakistan. India has already stationed hundreds of thousands of soldiers in Kashmir to try to prevent the infiltration of Islamic militants from Pakistan. India claims Pakistan arms, trains and supports militants to commit terrorist acts on Indian soil.

In an exclusive interview on Saturday with CNN, Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, repeated his claim that, quote, "There is nothing happening across the line of control." As expected, his remarks are causing disappointment in India.

KUMAR GUJRAL, FORMER INDIAN PRIME MINISTER: General Musharraf's unfortunate obduracy, by saying that nobody's going across, is something which even the world is not buying.

BINDRA: In the past week, several international leaders have sided with India, lining up to ask Pakistan to end cross-border infiltration. The Indians are pleased the international community understands their concerns, but they warn hundreds of al Qaeda and Taliban fighters who fled the war in Afghanistan are now gathering on the Pakistani side of Kashmir.

NIRUPAMA RAO, INDIAN SPOKESWOMAN: They've set up training camps. They have gathered arms, and they have been planning their strategies for further terrorist attacks and infiltration into India.

BINDRA: Agreeing with such assessments and recognizing the danger along the line of control, the U.S. State Department is now urging its 60,000 citizens here to leave India. Others in India feel it's time to end the rhetoric and talk peace. But at a candlelight vigil Saturday, these Indian activists were heckled by an angry crowd.

(on camera): These peace activists are in a minority. Many Indians say they still want their government to take military action if Pakistan continues supporting cross-border infiltration.

(voice-over): Facing such public pressure, the Indian government says there's little chance of a meeting with the Pakistani leadership any time soon, and that includes the forthcoming Asian security conference in Kazakhstan. India's prime minister, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, is going, but he has been saying for days there will be no peace talks.

The Pakistani president told CNN he will attend the meeting and is willing to talk to Vajpayee.

This former Indian prime minister is appealing to Vajpayee not to let go of this opportunity.

GUJRAL: At least they can frankly tell each other, without presence of media, as to what harm is being done to each one of them and to both of them.

BINDRA: But with so much animosity on both sides, it could still take a long time before India and Pakistan can establish enough trust to just sit down together.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, New Delhi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Now let's talk more about the tensions between India and Pakistan. Nayyar Zaidi is a Pakistani journalist, and he's the chief correspondent for the "Daily Jang." And Gautam Adhikari is also with us, and he's a former editor for "The Times of India." Both join us from Washington. Thanks for joining us.

Well, let's hear from Musharraf a couple of more times. We've pulled a couple of his sound bites so that perhaps you can give us a response on the other side. Up first, Musharraf says that he doesn't want war. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSHARRAF: I don't think either side is that irresponsible to go to that limit. I would even go to the extent of saying one shouldn't even be discussing these things because any sane individual cannot even think of going into this unconventional mold (ph), whatever the pressures.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, Nayyar, there are some Indian government officials who are saying that he really has lost credibility. He said something like this, or at least, he speaks a different tone depending on the audience. So how credible is that statement? NAYYAR ZAIDI, PAKISTANI JOURNALIST: I think you have to look at it in the context. He may have lost credibility, as they claim, on the issue that cross-border, you know, terrorism, or whatever they call it, has stopped or has been reduced. But I don't think he has lost credibility on the issue that he was talking here. I think he's saying that leaders on both sides are sane, and he was talking about nuclear war. I personally agree and I personally believe that leaders of both India and Pakistan are sane. They will not be that irresponsible to go to nuclear war. And I think it's a very premature issue. So I think that I'm very reassured by President Musharraf's statement that this is unthinkable. Let's not even think about nuclear war.

WHITFIELD: Gautam, are you hearing not just nuclear war but even conventional wars, that Musharraf doesn't want that, as well?

GAUTAM ADHIKARI, FORMER "TIMES OF INDIA" EDITOR: Well, there are two Indian views on this. One is, of course, that it all depends on what Mr. Musharraf defines as war. India says that Musharraf is already waging war by allowing cross-border infiltration and what they call a "proxy war." Now, if that stops, then -- and it can be verified, in the words of Ronald Reagan -- yes, of course, trust Musharraf, but trust but verify.

The point is that then there would be no need for war. Nobody wants war. It's almost a truism to suggest that either country wants war. And I agree with Nayyar that I think both countries have leaders who are fairly responsible, and they don't want a nuclear -- nobody wants a nuclear war.

WHITFIELD: All right, this...

ADHIKARI: That much I certainly agree with.

WHITFIELD: OK, let's listen in as Musharraf says he wants a terrorist-free Kashmir, as well. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSHARRAF: I've given the commitment that nothing is happening across the line of control. And I've also said that we will not allow Pakistan territory to be used for -- for any purposes of terrorism across its borders against any country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, Nayyar?

ZAIDI: Yeah. Let me clarify one thing on the previous question, that Mr. Musharraf did clearly use the word "unconventional." So I think he was only referring to the nuclear war and not to all other kinds of wars.

Now, talking about Kashmir and cross-border, quote, unquote, terrorism issue -- I think everyone, including the Indians -- the Americans and British -- concede that Pakistan has cracked down on these jihadi groups. But there is a difference of opinion on how much.

Now, we in Pakistan would at least like to know, OK, what -- do you guys concede that Pakistan has cracked down 10 percent or 5 percent or 40 to 60 percent? Because if it is 40 to 60 percent, then you have to be more patient and give more time. Why do you doubt the credibility of a person and a country which has cracked down 60 percent? But nobody is giving specifics. We have this propaganda all the time that you have to give absolute proof, you have to do 100 percent. And then who's going to define 100 percent? The Indians, who are poised to attack Pakistan and they think that it's the best opportunity to attack and destroy Pakistan.

WHITFIELD: OK, we also heard in that exclusive report from Musharraf that he also said that he is cracking down now, as he has already cracked down, on any kind of militant terrorist operatives. Let's listen to that sound bite now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSHARRAF: Pakistan and I, my government, want to root out militancy from our internal environment. We will do anything towards rooting out this militancy, and we are doing that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Gautam, are you seeing evidence of that already?

ADHIKARI: I think we again have to take him at his word. He's been cracking down for six months now on -- on terrorism and on militancy. So obviously, whether it's 10 percent or 40 percent, even he is acknowledging that there's a substantial part of it that's going on. And he is trying to stop it, as he says.

The problem is that, for instance, by cracking down in the initial phase of the Afghan war, at the request of the U.S., he rounded up 2,000 of the terrorists and militants, but 1,700 of them were released and had to be released later. So now, where are those people? Are some of them -- maybe some of them belonging to the al Qaeda -- are they -- are they in the Kashmir region? Are they creating trouble there? Are they crossing the border? Are they under the guidance of rogue elements within, say, the Inter Services Intelligence of the Pakistan army?

These are the things that one has to think about, and one has to also verify. I think the verification process is something where the United States and other countries can also help.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, speaking of the United States, then, later on this week, Donald Rumsfeld, as well as the deputy secretary of state, Armitage, are heading that direction. Nayyar, you see that as rather inflammatory, that their presence could escalate violence there. Why?

ZAIDI: What I believe is that everyone -- I mean, at the level of George Bush, is openly scolding Pakistan, raising the threshold, demanding that there should be absolute proof and siding with India. I think that this kind of open scolding of Pakistan can lead India to a miscalculation that "U.S. is with us, Britain is with us, Japan with us, everybody is with us. Let's attack Pakistan." So it may lead to war.

And I feel that if Rumsfeld and Armitage were to go and, at least in quiet diplomacy, emphasize to India that an attack on Pakistan at this point will be totally unacceptable because it will interfere with U.S. war on international terrorism.

And let me respond quickly to what Gautam said, that 2,000 terrorists were arrested and 1,700 terrorists were released. That's wrong.

WHITFIELD: Well...

ZAIDI: Two thousand suspects were arrested, and seventeen hundred of them -- perhaps there was not much evidence...

WHITFIELD: Well, Nayyar...

ZAIDI: ... were released.

WHITFIELD: ... we're running out of time. But Gautam, let me get you in here real quick. Do you think that any outside intervention would be potentially dangerous? Should everyone else butt out?

ADHIKARI: Oh, not at all. I think outside intervention, at least in defusing the tension, is vital. I think that's what India is also banking on, in a way. As I said, the verification process and talking to Pakistan -- hard talk, if necessary -- has to be done by powers which actually have clout in Pakistan.

WHITFIELD: OK. All right, thank you very much Gautam Adhikari and Nayyar Zaidi. Thank you very much for joining us. We're running out of time there, but we'll of course try and get you back another time to continue this discussion.

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