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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With Michael Gordon

Aired June 22, 2002 - 12:38   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: "Russia's Forgotten War" is based on the work of "New York Times" reporter Michael Gordon. He covered Chechnya extensively while serving as the newspaper's Moscow bureau chief. He's with us this afternoon from Washington. Michael, great to see you.

MICHAEL GORDON, NEW YORK TIMES: Nice to see you.

PHILLIPS: All right, so let's talk about the war in Chechnya. A couple of years ago, it was all over the radar. Every newscast was talking about it. Reporters were writing about it. Now all of a sudden, we're not hearing about it anymore. Why is that?

GORDON: Well, it really is a forgotten war. The war is still going on pretty much the way it was with pretty high casualty toll on both sides, but it is not really being covered, and that's for several reasons. One is the Russian government really does make it hard to cover the war. It is hard for a journalist to get access to the battlefield in Chechnya.

Another is I think there is a sort of misery fatigue on the part of the West. I think people -- just so many crises people seem to be able to focus on at one time. And a third reason, I think, is people are painting Chechnya with too broad a brush. It's being seen as yet another Islamic militancy akin to al Qaeda, when it's really a completely different situation. And I think there is a bit of a prejudice now in the West against the Chechens, which I think is rather ill-informed.

PHILLIPS: Do you think also that George W. Bush needs the support of Russia, needs Putin behind him when it comes to fighting this war on terrorism, so they're really not going to go there and talk about Chechnya right now until this war on terrorism is completed?

GORDON: Well, I think U.S. government policy is yet a fourth factor. During the campaign, as a candidate, President Bush took a very strong position on Chechnya. He condemned what really are indiscriminate attacks there, which have exacted a pretty high toll among the civilians. He even threatened some form of aid cut-off in terms of international aid, of which Russia doesn't get so much, but it would still be an important gesture.

But since he took office, he's really soft-pedaled that. I think there essentially has been a kind of implicit bargain struck. The Russians give the Americans support for bases in Central Asia for the war in Afghanistan. The Russians allowed the United States to withdraw from the ABM Treaty and pursue missile defense, and the administration in return is going to soft-pedal its criticism in Chechnya. They would never acknowledge that, but I think that's pretty much the geopolitical logic of what's going on.

PHILLIPS: Well, Michael, let's take this time now and put it back in the headlines. Tell me why Americans should care about this. Let's talk about the human rights abuses and maybe pressure that President Bush needs to feel at this point.

GORDON: Well, I think Americans should care about it for pretty much the reasons they used to care about it two years ago. Which is, one, there is a war going on in a part of Russia that is a human rights catastrophe. There has been a pretty high toll among the civilians because of the nature of the conflict there. A lot of Chechens are being killed and a lot of Russians are being killed. You know, almost 4,000 Russians are dead and 10,000 wounded in the army in an 18-month period, according to official statistics. To me, that's mind-boggling.

I also think another reason Americans should care is because Chechnya's compromised Russia in its quest to develop a democracy. You have a situation where the press in Russia is not entirely free, where the government has essentially taken over one of the television networks there. That's partly because the government doesn't want to have its policy in Chechnya criticized. So Chechnya is affecting Russian society in a negative way. It's a conflict that the Russians can't wear militarily, the Chechens can't win militarily, it just has to be resolved politically.

PHILLIPS: And you were talking about the Russians saying, look, this is a training ground for terrorists, sort of trying to make it a comparison to al Qaeda network and what's happening there. You say that is not true. So are we just talking about a lot of old grudges here on behalf of the KGB and the Russian military, and it's just more of this political struggle at any cost?

GORDON: There is fault to go around on both sides, the Chechen side as well as the Russian side in terms of how this conflict originated.

But what Chechnya really is is it's a nationalist movement. This is a people that essentially wants to govern itself, that for hundreds of years has resisted Russian rule and which will continue to do so. Is there a connection with Islamic militants? Yes, there is. Is it a strong connection? No. Would the conflict still be going on if you took the Islamic militant connection away? Yes, it would.

And so, there is really -- it's a real human tragedy. It's a tragedy for everyone involved. U.S. influence is limited, but there is some influence.

PHILLIPS: Michael Gordon, "New York Times," thank you so much.

GORDON: Thank you.

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