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CNN Live Saturday
Interview With Oleg Kalugin, Antonio Mendez
Aired July 20, 2002 - 12:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just from watching TV and watching movies, it is kind of an interesting thing to see, and it is kind of hard to believe. This kind of brings it a little more into reality.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just kind of surprises me that so much of this stuff isn't like brand new and I can't even believe that they have this stuff today. It's been around for a while.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One thing that was really interesting was the kit from spy school, the graduates to catch spies, detect spies. They got the long kit with all the different things in it needed to catch a spy.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I think this is like a really good museum. It's probably one of my favorite things in Washington, D.C.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Sentiments from some of the first visitors at the brand new International Spy Museum in Washington D.C. Among the attractions for you and to all the other visitors there today to visit and spot at the new museum: A tiny lipstick pistol called "the kiss of death," and a replica of James Bond's machine gun firing Aston Martin. Right there. A replica, of course.
Perhaps as cool as the museum itself, together outside the museum for us, a former CIA man and former KGB agent help us take a verbal tour, so to speak, of what's inside. Oleg Kalugin worked for the KGB for 32 years, and Antonio Mendez was known as "a master of disguise" during the 25 years he worked for the CIA. Thanks very much, gentlemen, for joining us.
Well, even given this post-Cold War, don't you kind of worry that some of your intimate secrets are getting out there? Antonio, let me begin with you.
ANTONIO MENDEZ, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, you always have to be very careful where that line is, and I think we've walked the line fairly carefully with the spy museum.
WHITFIELD: Well, Oleg, what's interested about this museum is not only are there lots of spy gadgets that we've all read about or seen in the movies, but there are also some rather interactive exhibits where people are kind of quizzed on, you know, how to spot, you know, a suspicious person and all kinds of other interactive kind of shops in store. What do you suppose is the most intriguing element about this museum?
OLEG KALUGIN, FORMER KGB OFFICIAL: Well, it is a matter of taste. I believe the museum has a great educational value. It's also entertainment. It's for all generations, for the young and old, and they will find whatever they want and find it most exciting. Some of the gadgets really are truly fabulous, and they're in public domain now. But again, this museum is an evolving institution. We'll have more things to come as things become declassified. So come over. You'll have fun. A lot of joy.
WHITFIELD: So, Oleg, does this mean that most of these things are kind of outdated now? Is that why everyone feels comfortable with these spy gadgets being on display, that they have already become kind of obsolete?
MENDEZ: Was that for Oleg or me?
WHITFIELD: Well, Antonio, go ahead.
KALUGIN: For both.
MENDEZ: For both?
WHITFIELD: Yeah.
KALUGIN: In this particular area of espionage, nothing is truly obsolete. There may be some perfections, some improvements, but look, the dead drop has been known for centuries, and it's still one of the most viable and most effective ways of communication with an agent and his handlers.
MENDEZ: I can tell you that when I was working in Moscow against Oleg and his compatriots, we relied very heavily on the dead drop, and it's, as he says, since Biblical times, we have been hiding things under a rock.
WHITFIELD: So among some of the things that we're looking at right now, we've got a shoe transmitter that we saw just a moment ago, and there was a suitcase radio. Everyone knows how the shoe transmitter might have been used because they remember the days of "get smart," but now what about this suitcase radio? How do you put that into action?
MENDEZ: Well, that was for use behind enemy lines in World War II. So you would drop a team of three people with black parachutes at night, and they would have a suitcase radio along with them. And then later on, in the Cold War, the agents would have suitcases radios that they'd have to hide away somewhere.
WHITFIELD: We've heard some of the sentiments of people who have just recently exited the building, and all who seem really excited about and so surprised that there were gadgets that were used that they didn't realize were being used. Were there any real surprises for you, even though both of you -- Oleg, let me begin with you -- even though you have quite extensive experience using a lot of these gadgets?
KALUGIN: Not really. Well, some degree of sophistication displayed in the museum gadgetry of course struck me also, even though I was professionally involved for decades. And well, there are many things not yet on display, and I hope some day they will be. For instance, silver on your table, a knife handle may be a transmitter. I haven't seen it in the museum. Hopefully, it will arrive soon.
MENDEZ: And the...
WHITFIELD: I'm sorry, go ahead.
MENDEZ: I was going to say and the martini with the olive as the transmitter. We always tried to make that one; we haven't made it yet.
WHITFIELD: Now, Antonio, you are also known as the master of disguise, and we have some videotape of you kind of transforming yourself into someone else. How often was that kind of the arsenal used, as opposed to the gadgets during your tenure as a CIA spy?
MENDEZ: Well, probably disguise was the most used tradecraft of all. You had to have a disguise in order to fill the gadgets. You know, you didn't use the gadgets out of an armchair in Washington or in Moscow. You had to be able to get into the field with them, and that's all about cloaking, and that's what disguise is.
WHITFIELD: And when you tried to make these disguises, what did you find? We're looking right now at a kind of a denture or a mouthpiece that was made. Did you feel like there was at least one tool that you just had to have in order to make the transformation? Was it the eyes that you would concentrate on first, or the mouth, or the shape of the face to really make for a good disguise?
MENDEZ: As human beings, we tend to look for the other person's eyes in order to see their intentions, so that would be the first level of animation. You can't see their eyes, you look at their mouths, and you want to see what expression they have. So each one of these thing we subtly changed, because those are the recognition features. But at a distance, it's the person's walk, it's their posture, it's their gait. Gestapo was trained to follow only the person's gait, the way they walked, because they knew the rest of you could be changed.
WHITFIELD: Wow. So now, Oleg, we talked about some of the disguises. Now back to some of the artifacts that are now known as artifacts, some of the real tools that you all would use. When we watched some of the James Bond movies, we know that Q would always introduce to James Bond kind of the latest gadget that he got to use. During your days with the KGB, how might new tools be introduced to agents? Surely you wouldn't allow an agent to dismantle or destroy a tool like we would see James Bond do in his experimental stage? KALUGIN: During our training as future intelligence officers, we were shown and instructed how to use most of the gadgetry. Of course, with the passage of time, things would improve, and again and again -- even we've achieved some promotions and became big chiefs, we would again be shown some of the best stuff so that we would be able to inspire our subordinates to use it more often, more frequently and more efficiently. So in fact, until the end of my days in the KGB, I was exposed to some of the latest developments in this area.
WHITFIELD: All right. OK.
MENDEZ: I worked in the gadget shop, and we always gave it to the senior guys, because if they broke it, we know anybody could break it, you know.
WHITFIELD: All right. Accidents do happen. All right. Thanks very much, Antonio Mendez, formerly of the CIA, and Oleg Kalugin, formerly of the KGB. Thanks very much for joining us, and of course, the International Spy Museum is already up and running, open for the public right there in the nation's capital of Washington, D.C. Thanks very much, gentlemen. Appreciate it.
MENDEZ: Thank you.
KALUGIN: Thank you.
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