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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With David Grange

Aired August 10, 2002 - 12:24   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KRIS OSBORN, CNN ANCHOR: We are going to bring in CNN military analyst David Grange. He is among those who have attended the Army survival school. He's with us now to talk about that, from Madison, Wisconsin. General, it is a pleasure to talk to you.
GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning.

OSBORN: Does this segment bring back any not so pleasant memories for you?

GRANGE: Oh, yeah. It's -- it's -- there's some terrible training there. It affects your body psychologically, physically, but it is well worth it.

OSBORN: Well, I wanted to talk about that, and before we discuss it at greater length, I want to run a soundbite from Mike Durant. Now, he is one of those, of course, who flew into Mogadishu in October of '93, flew one of the Black Hawk choppers. Was shot down, was then taken in captivity. Let's listen to him. He spoke earlier today on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL DURANT, U.S. ARMY (RET.): When it actually happens, it's absolutely incredible, it's overwhelming, and usually in most cases it is in the middle of a very hostile environment. There's probably a firefight going on, or there was one just previously, and the enemy is very aggressive. It's as dynamic a situation as you'll probably ever face in life, and I can say without a doubt that in the middle of it all there are several points throughout that capture and then subsequent captivity, where I relied on specific things that I'd been taught in survival school to help me figure out what I should be doing next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OSBORN: Mike Durant there talking about a very aggressive enemy. I wanted to talk to you about the simulation aspects of these kinds of survivor schools, the intensity, the harsh aspects of it, of course, to prepare for that very scenario that we just heard about.

GRANGE: Very tough training. It's -- there's a fine line, though, between putting people under a lot of stress and then injuring people. And so the military is very strict, as was on your film clip, about the instructors, how far they go. But they can still induce a lot of stress and they can still condition people with some memories that they will be able to use in combat, if need be, which are very important, like Mike said, to survival.

OSBORN: Now, I understand that this kind of training came about to some extent by virtue of what happened during the Korean War. U.S. service members were captured and wound up giving more information than perhaps they should have.

GRANGE: I think there have been problems in all of our conflicts, and the thing is, with the Code of Conduct, you know, you're taught to give name, rank, serial number and date of birth. But the real truth of the matter is, under torture, I don't care how tough you are, how macho you are, you're going to talk some. So what our instruction does is teach people just how much to talk about, just to give bits of information that really may not amount to anything, but allow you to live, to survive, to fight another day.

OSBORN: Talk to us about how effective this kind of training can be, because even the most intense simulation of a given scenario is still not the same as being in the hands of an enemy.

GRANGE: Well, that's right. And just like combat -- I mean, you can deprive people of sleep and food and do some kind of physical stress, but fear is very difficult to induce, like combat. And it's the same here. You can get it as realistic as you can, but you're so tired, you're so scared, stressed out at times during this training that it does seem like it's real. And those are the type of training conditions that enable you to remember certain critical aspects that will allow you to survive in the future.

OSBORN: And I wanted to ask you about that. Just a couple of days ago, I was speaking to a SEAL who went through a similar kind of training, and one of the things he said is that he was frozen basically to the point of hypothermia, of course, to put pressure on the body to see if, in fact, he would then give up information and start talking.

GRANGE: Well, that's right. Again, you're taken to the limits, and depending also on your rank in a camp. I was a senior ranking officer in my training, which means you're the senior person there. So not only do you have to worry about yourself, you have to worry about all of your fellow military personnel that you're responsible for.

I had a soldier taken prisoner in Vietnam, a Ranger. I had four soldiers taken prisoner in Macedonia during the Kosovo campaign. None of those soldiers had this training. And talking to the -- I never got to see the one in Vietnam, but talking to my three soldiers from Macedonia, when they were captured, we put in a lot of our own training in Germany in order to make up some deficiencies, because the Army's limited on its resources, able to train the people.

OSBORN: General Grange, certainly providing very useful perspective on this issue. It's a pleasure talking to you.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

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