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CNN Live Saturday

Police Arrest al Qaeda Operatives

Aired September 14, 2002 - 18:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: In Pakistan, an interrogation of two men suspected of being high-level al Qaeda operatives. If they talk, they could provide new details of the terrorist plot on September 11 last year. CNN's Sheila MacVicar reports one of the men picked up in Karachi, may have actually planned the attacks.
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SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INT'L. CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Ramzi Binalshibh has been one of the most wanted men on the planet. He's been accused of being one of the key planners of the Hamburg group that came together, and over a two-year period plotted to carry out the attacks of September 11.

Very shortly after that attacks of September 11, the German government issued an arrest warrant for him. Charging him with membership in a terrorist organization, al Qaeda, and with the murders of the thousands of people who were killed in those September 11 attacks.

Ramzi Binalshibh himself attempted to join the other hijackers in the United States, on four different occasions he is know to have applied for a U.S. visa, on four occasions he was turned down under circumstances which are still not clear. And it's known that he, too, had put a deposit down to take flying lessons in the United States. U.S. investigators have previously said that they believed that if he had succeeded in entering the United States, he would have become the 20th hijacker.

In an interview broadcast on the Arabic language channel, Al Jazeera, this past week, Ramzi Binalshibh described himself at the coordinator for the September 11 attacks and talked about the meticulous planning over a two-year period.

RAMZI BINALSHIBH (through translator): This was not just a single hijacking operation, but four. It was crucial that all were executed simultaneously.

MACVICAR: Investigators say that Binalshibh played a key role in attacks. That he indeed did act as a coordinator, arranging for the transfer of funds to bank accounts in the United States, which were used to pay for flying lessons. Arranging, when he could not enter the United States, for the recruitment of Zacarias Moussaoui, currently in federal custody in the United States.

And Spanish investigators say they believe that he was present, along with Mohammed Atta and others still unidentified, at what they think was a very important summit which took place in Spain just weeks before September 11 attacks.

Binalshibh stayed in Hamburg until, as he told Al Jazeera, he got a phone call on the morning of August 29, 2001, from the United States, from Mohammed Atta. And in that phone call to Binalshibh, in code, Mohammed Atta told him the date on which the attacks would take place.

BINALSHIBH (through translator): As it turns out, two sticks is a number 11, a dash is a dash, and a cake with a stick down, is the number nine. And that was September 11.

MACVICAR: By September the 6th, he had left Europe, via Spain, and had disappeared into Pakistan. He also, says Al-Jazeera, told them that until he arrived in Afghanistan, even Osama bin Laden himself had not known the date, precisely, on which the attacks would take place.

Binalshibh has been in hiding. Al Jazeera says that the interview that they conducted with him was in Karachi. We believe probably last June. These arrests over the course of the last two days would suggest that perhaps he had remained in Karachi throughout that period of time.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, London.

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LIN: And then just two days after he was arrested FBI agents moved in on five terror suspects in Buffalo, New York. The men are all American citizens of Yemeni descent. CNN's Susan Candiotti has more on the arrest and the charges -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Carol.

This is a case that has rocked, in particular, Western New York. And also, in particular, especially this Muslim community.

The Justice Department today charging five men with being part of al Qaeda, ready to provide help to Osama bin Laden terrorists organizations. And so, in court this day, for about two hours, after their arrest last night, five men heard and read for the very first time the charges that they face. And learned that three other alleged associates, that they apparently know, are in fact allegedly cooperating with the government, against these men and are not charged themselves.

However, the men in court each face one count, charging that each did provide, attempt to provide, conspired to provide material support and resources to a foreign terrorist organization.

The government accuses the group of going to Afghanistan last year and receiving terrorist training from Al Qaeda, including weapons training at an al Qaeda camp. In fact, also saying that each of them met Osama bin Laden during this time. Now, after investigating the case for several months the FBI says they have no evidence that these skills would be used anytime soon.

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ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: The investigation, to date, we have not seen any plans of an eminent attack on whether it be Western New York or elsewhere in the United States.

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CANDIOTTI: Now at this time, during this appearance, the judge entered not guilty pleas on behalf of all of the defendants. None of them was asked, at this time, to address any of the charges in court. And in fact, their court appointed lawyers didn't have much to say at this time, either.

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BILL CLAUSS, FEDERAL PUBLIC DEFENDER: I think the judge will listen very carefully to the evidence. And I think the judge will -- as you can see, Judge Shrader (ph) is very, very careful and very careful in protecting people's rights. So, I'm not predicting what's going to happen on Wednesday, because I really don't know. But absolutely, I think, it's well within the realm of the possible that either my client, or all the clients, or all the defendants could be released.

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CANDIOTTI: Again, this is a criminal complaint that each of these men faces. They are being held at this time, without bail. However, they might be able to challenge that next Wednesday, during a hearing scheduled by the judge. But until that time, again, they will be held without bail.

Finally, this situation has rocked the small city of Lackawanna, just outside Buffalo. The small, old steel town, a population of 20,000, it has a very large Muslim community. Neighbors, friends, as well as relatives of the defendants so far tell us that they can't believe that these men would be capable of such a thing and that they are stunned by the allegations -- Carol.

LIN: Susan, forgive me, but it's still not clear to me exactly what crime they've committed. I mean, even Robert Mueller is saying that the FBI doesn't know that they would actually act with the skills that they learned in this al Qaeda camp. So, specifically, what did they do to break the law?

CANDIOTTI: Well, in the view of the government, the government alleges they, in effect, used their bodies, their persons, that simply by going to Afghanistan -- perhaps not simply -- but by going to Afghanistan, by as the government states, taking part in terrorist training, that that alone will be held against them. And if that, as the government goes one step further, in the case of one of the men who has been charged, the government says that one of the men has acknowledged that he attended a terrorist al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan.

So, the government is saying that alone, the government states, that they are guilty of those crimes.

LIN: Have you had a chance to talk with any other legal experts on the scene? I know you've been busy working the story, so you probably have not, but I'm just wondering what the opinion is there. Because at least one attorney you spoke to was predicting that these men would be released.

CANDIOTTI: Well, the government will certainly have to prove its case. And that might be difficult for them to do. I don't know, because none of us has seen evidence. And even the defense attorneys don't have much to say about it because they, themselves, just saw the document when it was opened in court a few hours ago. So, they need to digest what they have to work with here. Talk with their clients before they can adequately address these types of questions, Carol.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Susan Candiotti, reporting live from Buffalo, there.

Well, in less than an hour federal authorities will hole a news conference with more details of the Buffalo investigation. CNN will bring that to you live.

In the meantime, terrorism expert Brian Jenkins has extensive knowledge about al Qaeda and he joins us from Los Angeles.

Brian, we want to talk to you about the arrest in Pakistan as well as Buffalo. But first, let me start with Buffalo. What is your reaction to these arrests? How significant are they?

BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, we've know for sometime that there are al Qaeda operatives in the United States, whether they were actively involved in planning terrorist operations or remaining in support ready to assist other terrorist operatives that may come into the country. We know that they have been there. And there has been, certainly, an effort since September 11 to identify all of the members of this organization and, and, bring them into custody.

LIN: It's a little awkward for me to be devil's advocate in this case, but I really am trying to understand how it is that these five men, by attending a training camp in Afghanistan, perhaps even meeting with bin Laden himself, but not actually acting on any of those skills, either for themselves or on behalf of al Qaeda, how that is a crime?

JENKINS: I'm not an attorney myself, but certainly al Qaeda is an organization that has declared itself at war with the United States, that has been involved in carrying out terrorist acts against U.S. targets, here and abroad. And if they were members of that organization, in those training camps, at times when that activity was being carried out against the United States. Then I think you probably can make a case that participating in that training is itself sufficient to put them into custody. We are in an area here that's very, very difficult. It's an area between conventional or traditional criminal investigation and a war with an organization that is clearly at war with us. In that context we are not obliged to wait until someone carries out a terrorist action against us. And then go out and try to figure out who they are and put them into custody.

If we have information that individuals were in those training camps, at the time that this organization was planning attacks against us, then that certainly, in my view, can be the basis for bringing them into custody. But we'll have to let the lawyers sort that out in a courtroom.

LIN: All right. We're going to hear more from the FBI shortly, anyway.

But let me move onto the arrest in Pakistan. Ramzi Binalshibh, how much do you think he knew about the 9/11 attacks? Do you think he was hands-on responsible for planning those attacks?

JENKINS: Well, we believe that he was a key figure in those attacks. And he, himself, in this most recent tape, has asserted that he was a key figure in those attacks. Specifically, in providing financial support, in fact, according to one report, he may even have met Mohammed Atta and given the final green light to go ahead with the operation.

LIN: So, if he has that knowledge, do you think he's in a position to know about future attacks, and if so, how damaging is his arrest to al Qaeda?

JENKINS: Well, you know, al Qaeda is not a hierarchical organization, it's a brotherhood, it's a network. So, we can't say that he held the rank of colonel or general, that he was a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or a consiglieri. But nonetheless, it appears that he held, at the time of September 11, a key position, at least in planning that particular attack.

And, more important, he, along with one other individual, Hallad Sheik Mohammed (ph) were featured in this most recent Al Jazeera tape, which was recorded in June, but just recently broadcast. Since there is no other contemporary participation in that tape, by Osama bin Laden himself, or Sheik Zawahiri, who is No. 2, then one is tempted to begin to interpret that tape as perhaps the identification, the emergence of new leadership within the organization.

These are the only two fellows who appear in featured roles in that latest tape. So, that indicates that he was asserting a position of leadership going forward. By his acknowledging participation in the September 11 attacks, that is a way he establishes his own credentials among the extremists group that al Qaeda hopes to lead.

LIN: There you go.

JENKINS: His arrest, coming so soon after the first broadcasts of that tape, does certainly produces a psychological blow to the al Qaeda organization. Questions arise, was he set up? Was he betrayed by someone?

LIN: And it certainly indicates that law enforcement...

JENKINS: Is there some objection to the assertion of leadership by these two individuals?

LIN: But it certainly sends a message.

JENKINS: Are there divisions with in al Qaeda?

LIN: Right.

JENKINS: All of those are now possibilities that we have to address as analysis -- as analysts, but more importantly, that they have to address as members of this organization.

LIN: We're going to have to leave it there. It certainly does show that law enforcement is on the trail of al Qaeda, both here and abroad.

Thank you very much.

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