Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Saturday

Special Report: Sniper on the Loose, Part V

Aired October 12, 2002 - 15:34   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The focus now on the Maryland, D.C., Virginia area is finding the man responsible for 10 shootings, eight of them fatal. CNN's Bill Hemmer is in Montgomery County, Maryland, keeping an eye on things there. And, Bill, so many people are trying to guess, as best they can, about who this sniper or snipers could be. But it's also very serious business, in terms of the investigators, who really are looking at a few patterns of the events, to try and piece together these clues.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And one has to wonder, Fredricka, if they're getting close at all, close to anything right now. I mean, so often we hear the -- you know, the police chief here in Rockville, Maryland, other parts around the area, come to the microphone and greet reporters, and there were so few facts that are given out every time they approach the microphone, it makes you wonder how close they're getting.

But yesterday, Kenneth Bridges was a 53-year-old father of six. He was from the Philadelphia area, and he was passing through, and he stopped with his rental car, a Buick, down in Fredericksburg, Maryland (sic), and he was the latest victim, the eighth person shot and killed, plus two others who have been wounded. The tally is 10 right now on the victims' side, between the killed and the wounded, as we sit here on day 10 working our way quickly into day 11.

We're going to hear from the police chief again in about an hour and 20 minutes from now.

I want to bring in our CNN criminologist, who is helping us out with this case. Casey Jordan is our guest now from New York City. And Casey, we say good afternoon to you, number one, and the other thing -- I know you've been looking at profiles, I mean, trends. You've done a lot of research into the mind of a serial killer, or serial killers possibly in this case. Can you note any consistencies right now of the 10 cases going back over the past week and a half?

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: The inconsistencies? Well, almost everything is inconsistent, most notably the location, of course. That is what is so challenging about this case, is that there really is no pattern emerging. There does not seem to be any consistency among the types of victims that are being chosen, but what has been consistent is, of course, the weapon of choice and the one shot rule. And that has emerged as one of the most important indicators of the psychology of this particular shooter. And I'm also very heartened, of course, by the reports on the vehicle, because if the reports on the vehicle remain consistent, that's going to be one of our biggest leads.

HEMMER: And we may get that at 5:00 Eastern time. Go back to the psychology, the aspect that you mentioned. What do you read, what do you frame, what do you profile in terms of the mentality or the psychology of this individual?

JORDAN: Well, I have to tell you that there is no existing profile which perfectly fits the circumstances of this case. We can derive information from other typologies. Park Dietz, the very famous forensic psychiatrist, dubbed a typology of mass murder "the pseudo- commando," and the type of shooting that we're seeing in this case does indeed fit that profile. But that sort of person usually dispatches his victims in one violent outburst, usually a mass murderer that's over in a matter of minutes. Maybe with a police standoff, it can last up to an hour or two, but never on an average of a victim a day.

Likewise, we also have -- go ahead, Bill.

HEMMER: No, I was just going to say, just to follow up on that. Then knowing the method of murder in this serial sniper, what does it tell you about the individual, based on the method of killing from a great distance through a scope with a high-powered rifle?

JORDAN: I would classify him as an extremely organized but asocial individual. Probably very meticulous in his ordinary habits. He's the kind of person that would probably make his bed and fold his T-shirts in the same way all of the time, whether he's been in the military or not.

At the same time, he is going to look, in my estimation, quite normal to the outside world. He will have superficial relationships. He may indeed have a relationship, have a wife or girlfriend live at home with his parents. He gets along OK with others on a superficial level, but under the surface he has some very deep-seated disturbing thoughts, and I believe that this shooting spree is indicative of an inner need which only he can fulfill to himself. I don't really think it has that much to do with outsiders as it does to do with his own psyche.

HEMMER: Take that a step further. If you're shooting from a distance of 100 yards or maybe 300 yards, it's a very, for lack of a better phrase, a clean way of killing. Does that tell you something about the mentality?

JORDAN: Well, again, you're talking...

HEMMER: In other words, this person isn't getting their hands dirty, they're not getting up close and personal either.

JORDAN: Right. And most often, when we study serial killers, and technically this person is evolving into a serialist by virtue of the timeframe, most people think of serial killers as sexually motivated, very often sadistic killers who do kill in a hand-to-hand combat sort of way, either by smothering, knifing, bludgeoning to death. This is so different from that sort of psychology. This person is not at all interested in the actual victim, not at all concerned with really how old they are, whether they're male or female. Only that they are a good, convenient target that he can get a clean shot off and be successful. Having a perfect score is what this guy is about, not dispatching a particular type of person, and that's what really differentiates him from most of the serial killers that we do study.

HEMMER: Do they emulate -- this killer, this sniper -- do they emulate anyone?

JORDAN: Well, I truly believe that even though we can't prove a direct linkage between popular culture, including movies, video games, television, comic books, I do believe that there is an indirect influence there. It is not the cause, by any means, but for unstable individuals, playing violent video games, consuming violent movies -- the so-called "pseudo commando" came from, of course, a character that you might see in an Arnold Schwarzenegger type of movie.

I would not be at all surprised if the perpetrator in this case is a massive consumer of violent popular culture, be it television, movies, video games, comics. And I do think that that might be something that we should be looking at in terms of our suspect list.

HEMMER: Let's hope we know all this sooner rather than later. Casey, thanks. Casey Jordan, from New York City, CNN criminologist. OK. We'll talk again.

JORDAN: Thank you.

HEMMER: In a moment here, we're going to go back to Elaine Shannon from "TIME" magazine. Some rather interesting work done right now in the computer lab to try and again connect some clues, and we'll talk about that in a moment. Back here, live in Rockville, after this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: The second of two briefings that we know about, anyway here in Rockville, again, as you saw right there in that graphic, 5:00 local time, about an hour and 15 minutes from now. And it's quite possible that we may be given some more clues, as the investigators right now have scoured this entire area and what they have come up with and determined.

In the meantime, let's talk about one of the 10 victims right now. On Wednesday night at a local Sunoco station, about 30 minutes southwest of where we are here in Rockville, 54-year-old Dean Meyers stopped to fill up his car with gasoline. He's a Vietnam veteran, and he leaves behind several brothers and a rather large family.

His nephew, Bob, was on CNN last evening. He had the grim task of notifying his family. Here is more now on the life of Dean Meyers, dead at age 54.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB MEYERS, BROTHER OF SNIPER VICTIM: As a person, he was a very giving, caring, very humble, peace-loving kind of guy. His interests were very varied. He loved people, and because he was always a single man and had a good job and lived frugally on his own, he had the time and the resources to be able to invest in other people. So family was very important to him and many friends that he had invested his life in and particularly the children. He was Uncle Dean to everyone. He would be the one with the big gifts at Christmastime. He was the one that would bring the fireworks to the July 4th gathering at the house -- at my parents' house. We would have picnics on most of the summer holidays and he would be involved in organizing that. He was just a really giving, active, kind individual.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Apparently he also loved the outdoors and loved to fish, as well.

I want to bring back Elaine Shannon right now. She works with "TIME" magazine. She's been scouring this story from the very beginning, and there's a lot to talk about again today, about what the investigators are coming up and with what they're not, frankly. Within the computer lab, what methods are they using in terms of ballistics evidence, geographic profiling, other matters that they can take technology into a computer and try and help and assist them?

ELAINE SHANNON, TIME MAGAZINE: Well, there are a lot of high- tech tools. They'll only get you so far, but then you need eyewitnesses. And one of the exciting things that the FBI is working on might help get witnesses or jog people's memories, they can take computer graphics. If you've ever seen "Star Wars," you know what they can create. They can draw a scene, the real scene, and then they can make it go 360 degrees or look down or look up, so that you could show this to somebody who was in a parking lot near a shooting and say, "Here's where the shooter was, here's where the victim was. Now, what did you see?"

And you can zero in on -- make that person remember things that might not seem important but maybe are important, maybe the look of a vehicle that you didn't think was connected but maybe it was.

HEMMER: Let me ask you this. Do you think they're getting close to anything, getting close to anyone?

SHANNON: I don't think that they're close to an individual. You can talk about psychological profiling all you want. And geographical profiling is another very interesting thing, because they -- it seems to be true that serial killers tend to strike sort of near their houses. Not too near but not a completely alien territory and obviously this person knows how to get away fast from wherever he's struck and has probably spent a long time picking his locations. He may not be picking his victims, but he's picking his sniper's nests. But now, I don't think the have the name of an individual, and I don't think the ballistics can get them there. And I don't think the profiling can get them there. HEMMER: You referred to this getaway route, which may be very well the case. There is speculation that perhaps the sniper, the killer, is casing the area first, trying to make sure the getaway is clean, the area upon which he or she can fire is protected, in other words, will not get caught. How much frustration do you think developed yesterday, yesterday morning, that within seven minutes -- the on-ramps, the exits down in Fredericksburg, Virginia, were essentially shut down and closed, all traffic on northbound roads were shut down and funneled through a system, and still this killer got away.

SHANNON: That's what's so maddening about this case. And plus, we know that this man is using a rifle. He's not using a handgun in a bag. He's using a long gun, and that barrel is sticking out of a vehicle and nobody has seen it, and nobody's seen his face or their faces. And so, yes, we hear about a white van, but it could be another car entirely. And that's why the police, I think, are right to tell people not to listen too much to the profiles, because it could be somebody who's not in the middle ages range. It could be a 17-year-old. It could be a 65-year-old. It could be a blue Chevrolet.

HEMMER: And it could be that that rifle is not sticking out of a window. It could be self-contained within the vehicle itself.

SHANNON: Yes.

HEMMER: Or it could be, like we saw at the elementary school, where the killer gets out of a car and goes, lies down in a field or a wooded area.

SHANNON: We know that this person has a lot of self-control and a lot of self discipline, which is unusual for somebody who would do something this deranged. And we know that the person has calculated and premeditated a lot of what he's doing, and so it is entirely within reason that he could have built something into his car or truck to do that.

HEMMER: Thanks, Elaine. Elaine Shannon from "TIME" magazine.

We'll continue to wait here, Fredricka. About an hour and 10 minutes away from the latest briefing by the police chief here, Charles Moose in Rockville. Back to you, now, Fredricka, at the CNN Center.

WHITFIELD: All right, Bill. And as we wait to hear from Charles Moose, any new developments -- I'm just reflecting on something else he said earlier in the week. In order to garner some help from the public, he said, you know what? It might be possible that someone may have had some interaction with this sniper or snipers, and perhaps a tip-off would be unusual behavior by people. Perhaps, he said, that person might seem a rather boring, a little bit more withdrawn. And these are things to look for in this ongoing search for this sniper or snipers.

HEMMER: I think your point is very well taken. If you remember yesterday, one of the briefings with Charles Moose here, the police chief in Montgomery County, he essentially came out and said to everyone watching, think about anyone who has acted erratically. Think about someone who has not been present at work at the time of the incidents or shootings, think about someone who's expressed some sort of hatred towards the police department. And I think it's that effort, again, that tries to jog the memory of someone who may know something at this point.

WHITFIELD: And, of course, investigators are hoping that the public will become a little bit more attuned to clues when they, perhaps, release this graphic or drawing that we expect to see in this 5:00 press conference.

HEMMER: Listen, they are looking for any help they can get, Fredricka. I mean, every time you hear a plea to call that 1-888 number and again, that's the plea yet again today.

WHITFIELD: All right. Bill Hemmer, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 12, 2002 - 15:34   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The focus now on the Maryland, D.C., Virginia area is finding the man responsible for 10 shootings, eight of them fatal. CNN's Bill Hemmer is in Montgomery County, Maryland, keeping an eye on things there. And, Bill, so many people are trying to guess, as best they can, about who this sniper or snipers could be. But it's also very serious business, in terms of the investigators, who really are looking at a few patterns of the events, to try and piece together these clues.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And one has to wonder, Fredricka, if they're getting close at all, close to anything right now. I mean, so often we hear the -- you know, the police chief here in Rockville, Maryland, other parts around the area, come to the microphone and greet reporters, and there were so few facts that are given out every time they approach the microphone, it makes you wonder how close they're getting.

But yesterday, Kenneth Bridges was a 53-year-old father of six. He was from the Philadelphia area, and he was passing through, and he stopped with his rental car, a Buick, down in Fredericksburg, Maryland (sic), and he was the latest victim, the eighth person shot and killed, plus two others who have been wounded. The tally is 10 right now on the victims' side, between the killed and the wounded, as we sit here on day 10 working our way quickly into day 11.

We're going to hear from the police chief again in about an hour and 20 minutes from now.

I want to bring in our CNN criminologist, who is helping us out with this case. Casey Jordan is our guest now from New York City. And Casey, we say good afternoon to you, number one, and the other thing -- I know you've been looking at profiles, I mean, trends. You've done a lot of research into the mind of a serial killer, or serial killers possibly in this case. Can you note any consistencies right now of the 10 cases going back over the past week and a half?

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: The inconsistencies? Well, almost everything is inconsistent, most notably the location, of course. That is what is so challenging about this case, is that there really is no pattern emerging. There does not seem to be any consistency among the types of victims that are being chosen, but what has been consistent is, of course, the weapon of choice and the one shot rule. And that has emerged as one of the most important indicators of the psychology of this particular shooter. And I'm also very heartened, of course, by the reports on the vehicle, because if the reports on the vehicle remain consistent, that's going to be one of our biggest leads.

HEMMER: And we may get that at 5:00 Eastern time. Go back to the psychology, the aspect that you mentioned. What do you read, what do you frame, what do you profile in terms of the mentality or the psychology of this individual?

JORDAN: Well, I have to tell you that there is no existing profile which perfectly fits the circumstances of this case. We can derive information from other typologies. Park Dietz, the very famous forensic psychiatrist, dubbed a typology of mass murder "the pseudo- commando," and the type of shooting that we're seeing in this case does indeed fit that profile. But that sort of person usually dispatches his victims in one violent outburst, usually a mass murderer that's over in a matter of minutes. Maybe with a police standoff, it can last up to an hour or two, but never on an average of a victim a day.

Likewise, we also have -- go ahead, Bill.

HEMMER: No, I was just going to say, just to follow up on that. Then knowing the method of murder in this serial sniper, what does it tell you about the individual, based on the method of killing from a great distance through a scope with a high-powered rifle?

JORDAN: I would classify him as an extremely organized but asocial individual. Probably very meticulous in his ordinary habits. He's the kind of person that would probably make his bed and fold his T-shirts in the same way all of the time, whether he's been in the military or not.

At the same time, he is going to look, in my estimation, quite normal to the outside world. He will have superficial relationships. He may indeed have a relationship, have a wife or girlfriend live at home with his parents. He gets along OK with others on a superficial level, but under the surface he has some very deep-seated disturbing thoughts, and I believe that this shooting spree is indicative of an inner need which only he can fulfill to himself. I don't really think it has that much to do with outsiders as it does to do with his own psyche.

HEMMER: Take that a step further. If you're shooting from a distance of 100 yards or maybe 300 yards, it's a very, for lack of a better phrase, a clean way of killing. Does that tell you something about the mentality?

JORDAN: Well, again, you're talking...

HEMMER: In other words, this person isn't getting their hands dirty, they're not getting up close and personal either.

JORDAN: Right. And most often, when we study serial killers, and technically this person is evolving into a serialist by virtue of the timeframe, most people think of serial killers as sexually motivated, very often sadistic killers who do kill in a hand-to-hand combat sort of way, either by smothering, knifing, bludgeoning to death. This is so different from that sort of psychology. This person is not at all interested in the actual victim, not at all concerned with really how old they are, whether they're male or female. Only that they are a good, convenient target that he can get a clean shot off and be successful. Having a perfect score is what this guy is about, not dispatching a particular type of person, and that's what really differentiates him from most of the serial killers that we do study.

HEMMER: Do they emulate -- this killer, this sniper -- do they emulate anyone?

JORDAN: Well, I truly believe that even though we can't prove a direct linkage between popular culture, including movies, video games, television, comic books, I do believe that there is an indirect influence there. It is not the cause, by any means, but for unstable individuals, playing violent video games, consuming violent movies -- the so-called "pseudo commando" came from, of course, a character that you might see in an Arnold Schwarzenegger type of movie.

I would not be at all surprised if the perpetrator in this case is a massive consumer of violent popular culture, be it television, movies, video games, comics. And I do think that that might be something that we should be looking at in terms of our suspect list.

HEMMER: Let's hope we know all this sooner rather than later. Casey, thanks. Casey Jordan, from New York City, CNN criminologist. OK. We'll talk again.

JORDAN: Thank you.

HEMMER: In a moment here, we're going to go back to Elaine Shannon from "TIME" magazine. Some rather interesting work done right now in the computer lab to try and again connect some clues, and we'll talk about that in a moment. Back here, live in Rockville, after this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: The second of two briefings that we know about, anyway here in Rockville, again, as you saw right there in that graphic, 5:00 local time, about an hour and 15 minutes from now. And it's quite possible that we may be given some more clues, as the investigators right now have scoured this entire area and what they have come up with and determined.

In the meantime, let's talk about one of the 10 victims right now. On Wednesday night at a local Sunoco station, about 30 minutes southwest of where we are here in Rockville, 54-year-old Dean Meyers stopped to fill up his car with gasoline. He's a Vietnam veteran, and he leaves behind several brothers and a rather large family.

His nephew, Bob, was on CNN last evening. He had the grim task of notifying his family. Here is more now on the life of Dean Meyers, dead at age 54.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB MEYERS, BROTHER OF SNIPER VICTIM: As a person, he was a very giving, caring, very humble, peace-loving kind of guy. His interests were very varied. He loved people, and because he was always a single man and had a good job and lived frugally on his own, he had the time and the resources to be able to invest in other people. So family was very important to him and many friends that he had invested his life in and particularly the children. He was Uncle Dean to everyone. He would be the one with the big gifts at Christmastime. He was the one that would bring the fireworks to the July 4th gathering at the house -- at my parents' house. We would have picnics on most of the summer holidays and he would be involved in organizing that. He was just a really giving, active, kind individual.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Apparently he also loved the outdoors and loved to fish, as well.

I want to bring back Elaine Shannon right now. She works with "TIME" magazine. She's been scouring this story from the very beginning, and there's a lot to talk about again today, about what the investigators are coming up and with what they're not, frankly. Within the computer lab, what methods are they using in terms of ballistics evidence, geographic profiling, other matters that they can take technology into a computer and try and help and assist them?

ELAINE SHANNON, TIME MAGAZINE: Well, there are a lot of high- tech tools. They'll only get you so far, but then you need eyewitnesses. And one of the exciting things that the FBI is working on might help get witnesses or jog people's memories, they can take computer graphics. If you've ever seen "Star Wars," you know what they can create. They can draw a scene, the real scene, and then they can make it go 360 degrees or look down or look up, so that you could show this to somebody who was in a parking lot near a shooting and say, "Here's where the shooter was, here's where the victim was. Now, what did you see?"

And you can zero in on -- make that person remember things that might not seem important but maybe are important, maybe the look of a vehicle that you didn't think was connected but maybe it was.

HEMMER: Let me ask you this. Do you think they're getting close to anything, getting close to anyone?

SHANNON: I don't think that they're close to an individual. You can talk about psychological profiling all you want. And geographical profiling is another very interesting thing, because they -- it seems to be true that serial killers tend to strike sort of near their houses. Not too near but not a completely alien territory and obviously this person knows how to get away fast from wherever he's struck and has probably spent a long time picking his locations. He may not be picking his victims, but he's picking his sniper's nests. But now, I don't think the have the name of an individual, and I don't think the ballistics can get them there. And I don't think the profiling can get them there. HEMMER: You referred to this getaway route, which may be very well the case. There is speculation that perhaps the sniper, the killer, is casing the area first, trying to make sure the getaway is clean, the area upon which he or she can fire is protected, in other words, will not get caught. How much frustration do you think developed yesterday, yesterday morning, that within seven minutes -- the on-ramps, the exits down in Fredericksburg, Virginia, were essentially shut down and closed, all traffic on northbound roads were shut down and funneled through a system, and still this killer got away.

SHANNON: That's what's so maddening about this case. And plus, we know that this man is using a rifle. He's not using a handgun in a bag. He's using a long gun, and that barrel is sticking out of a vehicle and nobody has seen it, and nobody's seen his face or their faces. And so, yes, we hear about a white van, but it could be another car entirely. And that's why the police, I think, are right to tell people not to listen too much to the profiles, because it could be somebody who's not in the middle ages range. It could be a 17-year-old. It could be a 65-year-old. It could be a blue Chevrolet.

HEMMER: And it could be that that rifle is not sticking out of a window. It could be self-contained within the vehicle itself.

SHANNON: Yes.

HEMMER: Or it could be, like we saw at the elementary school, where the killer gets out of a car and goes, lies down in a field or a wooded area.

SHANNON: We know that this person has a lot of self-control and a lot of self discipline, which is unusual for somebody who would do something this deranged. And we know that the person has calculated and premeditated a lot of what he's doing, and so it is entirely within reason that he could have built something into his car or truck to do that.

HEMMER: Thanks, Elaine. Elaine Shannon from "TIME" magazine.

We'll continue to wait here, Fredricka. About an hour and 10 minutes away from the latest briefing by the police chief here, Charles Moose in Rockville. Back to you, now, Fredricka, at the CNN Center.

WHITFIELD: All right, Bill. And as we wait to hear from Charles Moose, any new developments -- I'm just reflecting on something else he said earlier in the week. In order to garner some help from the public, he said, you know what? It might be possible that someone may have had some interaction with this sniper or snipers, and perhaps a tip-off would be unusual behavior by people. Perhaps, he said, that person might seem a rather boring, a little bit more withdrawn. And these are things to look for in this ongoing search for this sniper or snipers.

HEMMER: I think your point is very well taken. If you remember yesterday, one of the briefings with Charles Moose here, the police chief in Montgomery County, he essentially came out and said to everyone watching, think about anyone who has acted erratically. Think about someone who has not been present at work at the time of the incidents or shootings, think about someone who's expressed some sort of hatred towards the police department. And I think it's that effort, again, that tries to jog the memory of someone who may know something at this point.

WHITFIELD: And, of course, investigators are hoping that the public will become a little bit more attuned to clues when they, perhaps, release this graphic or drawing that we expect to see in this 5:00 press conference.

HEMMER: Listen, they are looking for any help they can get, Fredricka. I mean, every time you hear a plea to call that 1-888 number and again, that's the plea yet again today.

WHITFIELD: All right. Bill Hemmer, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com