Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Saturday
Special Report: Sniper on the Loose, Part II
Aired October 12, 2002 - 13:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN SATURDAY and a special report on the sniper on the loose. We're keeping abreast of the ongoing investigation there in the Maryland, D.C. and Virginia areas.
You were just now hearing from a police officer out of Virginia talking about the link now being made. Ten in all shootings -- eight of them fatal.
Our Daryn Kagan is in Montgomery County, Maryland and she has been following this story.
And, Daryn, you mentioned earlier that a graphic description -- a drawing -- of a van-like vehicle possibly used in all of these sniper attacks will be used to help investigators.
Is this also a way in which to try and deter so many phone calls that the police have been getting?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. They have been referring to it, Fredricka, as a graphic aid and it's supposed to come out sometime today although we did hear that yesterday as well that it was supposed to come out and it didn't.
We heard the police chief here in Montgomery County, Charlie Moose, explain that they want to get it exactly right and talking to a number of witnesses to get it right before they release it.
And they're hoping that will jar the memory of folks who might have been in the area of some of these shootings. The big, big news today, of course, being that the ballistics tests coming back confirming, in fact, what many people thought yesterday -- that the shooting that took place in Fredericksburg, Virginia is indeed related to the other shootings that we've seen over the last 10 days.
And to get reaction on that and talk about other aspects of the investigation I have two mayors from here in Maryland. We have Fred Robinson from Bowie, Maryland and we have Larry Giammo from Rockville. Mr. Mayor and Mr. Mayor -- thank you for joining us here.
First of all -- and I'll start with you, Mayor Robinson -- what's your reaction to this latest news that, in fact, you have yet another shooting that is related to the previous nine or 10?
FREDERICK ROBINSON, MAYOR OF BOWIE, MARYLAND: Well, clearly it adds to the anxiety -- just the absolute randomness of the attacks and it plays into people's concerns obviously.
We're trying to encourage people to go back to their normal activities -- go get your gas, take your children to the park, do whatever -- and this just works absolutely against that.
KAGAN: One thing that was so remarkable, Mayor Giammo, about what happened yesterday -- it happened within 100 feet of a state trooper who was right there working on a traffic accident. The sniper is getting more and more daring.
LARRY GIAMMO, MAYOR OF ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND: Well, he's certainly very bold in what he's been doing. All of these crimes are really horrific. And, as Fred said, I think the real -- the thing that really makes it difficult for people is the random nature of it.
I think we all realize that any one of us could have been that innocent victim as opposed to the ones that have already been shot down.
KAGAN: What about the sense of frustration of policing so close and yet this guy getting away yet again despite the intense dragnet that took place yesterday?
ROBINSON: Well, I'm sure they're frustrated but I've been impressed with the caliber of work that I've seen demonstrated, the fact that they're all pulling together. It's almost unprecedented to see the actual cooperation and when the federal agencies that have come in and brought additional resources. So I think it's reassuring to see the police response.
We had a report of a shooting in Bowie yesterday. It turned out to be false. But within a matter of minutes we had almost 20 police officers on the scene. So that part is reassuring. And I think the police are doing a good job of keeping us informed of what's going on. And their actions have been pretty positive and pretty reassuring.
KAGAN: Mayor Giammo, tell us -- and I hope you can tell us honestly -- I know stuff happens behind the scenes -- but give us a picture behind the scenes of how these different jurisdictions are working. You have different cities here, you have different counties -- even if it's just between the two of you.
Then you -- so you have local, you have municipal, you have city, you have sheriff, you have federal and state officials. How is this all working and coordinating behind the scenes?
GIAMMO: There are definitely a lot of different levels and . . .
KAGAN: Yeah.
GIAMMO: ... a lot of different agencies. I've been in close ties with our police chief of City of Rockville, Terry Treschuk, over the last week. And, as I understand it, certainly there is a lot to manage in terms of coordination but it has been working very well.
I know even here in the city limits of Rockville we've had a number of different agencies working closely with our city police. And it sounds like it's going very smoothly and everybody's focused on trying to catch the perpetrator.
KAGAN: Mayor Robinson, with all due respect to the people who have lost their loved ones and the other people who have been hurt, I think the shooting that has shocked the most amount of people is the one that took place in Bowie ...
ROBINSON: Right.
KAGAN: ... and that's the 13 year old boy that was shot at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Middle School as he was just going to school.
Are you in touch with that family and do you know how he is doing?
ROBINSON: Well, we tried to meet with the child at the hospital. Obviously he's unavailable. We've tried to make some -- make any contact with the family and assure them of our interest.
I tell people we're a large small town and it's still a community where people will reach out and try to help. And everybody is concerned.
I spoke to a number of the children at the middle school. They're concerned about their classmate obviously. But they're strong and I think the family will benefit from that and the kids will move forward.
KAGAN: We had a chance to visit a little bit here before we went on the air and you both shared with me that technically you both are -- these are part-time jobs as mayors.
I think on an average day even before this it's a big, big full- time job even though it's only part-time. How has it been to rise to that occasion and lead your community in this time of not just pain but also fear?
GIAMMO: Well, I think for me I stepped up to run for mayor to provide leadership on issues that matter to people. And when a challenge like this comes along this is something else I think people look to their elected officials and their police and whatnot to provide leadership on. So unfortunately it's all part of the job.
KAGAN: We've talked a lot and people have been interested in this about people -- how that are adjusting -- events that are canceled.
You had to make a big decision -- a big 10K ...
GIAMMO: Yeah -- Rockville sponsors a 10K race every October and it was scheduled for tomorrow morning ...
KAGAN: It's not going to happen.
GIAMMO: ... and we've canceled that just to be safe. No specific threat but we just want to make sure that we don't unnecessarily but anybody in harm's way.
KAGAN: Was it that or was it also thinking, "You know what? People probably aren't going to even show up?"
GIAMMO: I think there's that, too. People obviously have been adjusting their schedules and their routines. As Fred said, I think we're doing the same thing here -- encouraging people to go about their daily business but at the same time be especially vigilant and aware of your surroundings.
I think at the end of the day what's really important is that these kinds of crimes -- high likelihood they're going to be solved by that one random citizen who happens to see or hear something suspicious and reports it to the police. So we're really encouraging people to keep their eyes open.
KAGAN: And then, finally, of course, this story is being watched by people not across this part of the country but all over the country and all around the world as well. What would you say to people who maybe don't live here, have ties here but how can they help out because they're concerned?
ROBINSON: Well, if they have family here -- call them and reassure them that they're concerned about them. But -- and recognize that the Rockville community and the Bowie community are great family communities and we're going to get through all of this as we have to.
I know Larry's had the same experiences I've had. It's sometimes challenging to do what we do but what's reassuring is when the community comes together and they all stand up and say, "We're going to get it done."
And that's what's -- there is a positive side to this although it's hard to appreciate sometimes.
GIAMMO: The community is strong.
And there is the reward fund that people have been contributing to. And I understand it's already reached a half a million dollars. And it's now turning into a victim relief fund. So people can contribute to that.
But I'll echo what Fred said -- if anybody out there has a family member or friend that lives here in the Washington, DC area -- pick up the phone and give them a call this weekend and maybe send an e-mail and just say, "Hey -- you're in our thoughts. We're with you."
I've gotten a number of e-mails from folks living around the country that I've known over my lifetime and even some folks that I haven't spoken to in a number of years and it makes a difference. It's nice to know that there are a lot of people out there who are in our corner.
KAGAN: All right -- Larry Giammo, Mayor of Rockville, Maryland, and Mayor Fred Robinson from Bowie -- thank you.
GIAMMO: Thank you.
KAGAN: We know this is a busy time not just for you as mayors but also as family men as well. We appreciate your time.
And Larry Giammo is the mayor of Rockville. Fred, making a good point. He talked about the reward fund. The goal was to get it up to a half a million dollars. It has hit that as of today. And, as he mentioned, now any money that comes into that reward fund will be passed on to families of the victims. Back to you.
WHITFIELD: All right. A lot of that from the generosity of people who live in that area and a lot of folks who don't who have contributed to that fund. Daryn Kagan -- yeah -- go ahead -- sorry.
KAGAN: I'm sorry. I was going to say that people are just frustrated. You drive around these communities -- I'm thinking of being in Atlanta. This could be Alpharetta, Marietta or my hometown in Los Angeles. This could be out in Thousand Oaks or Orange County. People are really touched by this -- not just the tragedy, the people who have lost their loved ones but the way that everyday life has been upset in the Washington, DC area.
WHITFIELD: That's right -- in carrying out just routine, ordinary methods of day to day life, as you said. All right -- Daryn Kagan -- thanks very much.
KAGAN: Sure.
WHITFIELD: We'll see you again shortly from Montgomery County.
KAGAN: OK.
WHITFIELD: Appreciate it.
Well, the physical evidence is one thing but investigators are also trying to determine who did this by trying to study a bit closer the behavior or the pattern of these shootings.
And to help us better understand what the investigators also are looking at is a criminologist. Casey Jordan of Western Connecticut State University, a professor there. Thanks very much. Good to see you.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR, WESTERN CONNECTICUT STATE UNIVERSITY: Glad to be here, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, what kind of information can be extracted to help paint a picture of who might be responsible just based on where these shootings have taken place and the methods in which they have been carried out?
JORDAN: Well, what's really interesting is that to discern patterns we often look at previous types of cases that have similarities. And the frustrating thing about his case is, of course, that there are very few similarities to previous cases. The one shot marksmanship is extremely interesting in this case. Naturally we're very interested in the tarot card and the message that was left on the tarot card.
The cross section of the victims is extremely interesting because there is no pattern. And normally in this type of sniper shooting or spree killing you do see a pattern. You see that the victims are usually quite similar.
So that, of course, is an additional factor we take into consideration when we try to figure out what sort of person would be doing this.
WHITFIELD: Right. In fact, the victims are all very random -- everyone from all different kinds of walks of life, different age brackets, different professions, et cetera.
JORDAN: Absolutely.
WHITFIELD: And so because of that, this is certainly going to make it much more difficult for investigators to figure out the motivation behind these killings, correct?
JORDAN: Absolutely. Spree killers are a law enforcement officer's worst nightmare in any event but most of them have a discernible motive. Most of them are on a mission to rid the world of a particular person. Most of them are on a mission to destroy as many people as possible before they commit suicide.
This particular shooter doesn't seem to show any signs of, number one, stopping or, number two, showing a pattern with his victimology.
Of course, he's not close enough to them to really know who they are or care who they are. He, in my estimation, is trying to prove something to himself. And I think that he is actually engaged in this cat and mouse game with the police and is getting quite a thrill from that as well.
WHITFIELD: In fact, there have been some who believe that this sniper or snipers are probably very much closely watching the media coverage -- that because they seem to be taunting investigators with the I guess the bravery, if you will, of the latest shooting taking place just 50 yards away from where a police officer was taking care of an accident there -- that perhaps his brazen behavior is that cat and mouse game, as you say.
JORDAN: I don't think any of us believe that that was coincidental.
I think that most people who study these sorts of crimes believe that that was done quite intentionally and that that shows that the behavior is escalating.
The only silver lining, if that's true, is that as they step up the pace and gain more confidence they very often become overconfident and trip up in some way. So if that sort of behavior continues I think that we can gain hope that law enforcement will close in and find this person relatively quickly.
WHITFIELD: And often times a case like this is cracked because someone makes a mistake.
JORDAN: All of the time.
WHITFIELD: All right -- thanks very much. Casey Jordan, professor of Western Connecticut State University and a criminologist.
Thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it.
JORDAN: My pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 12, 2002 - 13:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN SATURDAY and a special report on the sniper on the loose. We're keeping abreast of the ongoing investigation there in the Maryland, D.C. and Virginia areas.
You were just now hearing from a police officer out of Virginia talking about the link now being made. Ten in all shootings -- eight of them fatal.
Our Daryn Kagan is in Montgomery County, Maryland and she has been following this story.
And, Daryn, you mentioned earlier that a graphic description -- a drawing -- of a van-like vehicle possibly used in all of these sniper attacks will be used to help investigators.
Is this also a way in which to try and deter so many phone calls that the police have been getting?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. They have been referring to it, Fredricka, as a graphic aid and it's supposed to come out sometime today although we did hear that yesterday as well that it was supposed to come out and it didn't.
We heard the police chief here in Montgomery County, Charlie Moose, explain that they want to get it exactly right and talking to a number of witnesses to get it right before they release it.
And they're hoping that will jar the memory of folks who might have been in the area of some of these shootings. The big, big news today, of course, being that the ballistics tests coming back confirming, in fact, what many people thought yesterday -- that the shooting that took place in Fredericksburg, Virginia is indeed related to the other shootings that we've seen over the last 10 days.
And to get reaction on that and talk about other aspects of the investigation I have two mayors from here in Maryland. We have Fred Robinson from Bowie, Maryland and we have Larry Giammo from Rockville. Mr. Mayor and Mr. Mayor -- thank you for joining us here.
First of all -- and I'll start with you, Mayor Robinson -- what's your reaction to this latest news that, in fact, you have yet another shooting that is related to the previous nine or 10?
FREDERICK ROBINSON, MAYOR OF BOWIE, MARYLAND: Well, clearly it adds to the anxiety -- just the absolute randomness of the attacks and it plays into people's concerns obviously.
We're trying to encourage people to go back to their normal activities -- go get your gas, take your children to the park, do whatever -- and this just works absolutely against that.
KAGAN: One thing that was so remarkable, Mayor Giammo, about what happened yesterday -- it happened within 100 feet of a state trooper who was right there working on a traffic accident. The sniper is getting more and more daring.
LARRY GIAMMO, MAYOR OF ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND: Well, he's certainly very bold in what he's been doing. All of these crimes are really horrific. And, as Fred said, I think the real -- the thing that really makes it difficult for people is the random nature of it.
I think we all realize that any one of us could have been that innocent victim as opposed to the ones that have already been shot down.
KAGAN: What about the sense of frustration of policing so close and yet this guy getting away yet again despite the intense dragnet that took place yesterday?
ROBINSON: Well, I'm sure they're frustrated but I've been impressed with the caliber of work that I've seen demonstrated, the fact that they're all pulling together. It's almost unprecedented to see the actual cooperation and when the federal agencies that have come in and brought additional resources. So I think it's reassuring to see the police response.
We had a report of a shooting in Bowie yesterday. It turned out to be false. But within a matter of minutes we had almost 20 police officers on the scene. So that part is reassuring. And I think the police are doing a good job of keeping us informed of what's going on. And their actions have been pretty positive and pretty reassuring.
KAGAN: Mayor Giammo, tell us -- and I hope you can tell us honestly -- I know stuff happens behind the scenes -- but give us a picture behind the scenes of how these different jurisdictions are working. You have different cities here, you have different counties -- even if it's just between the two of you.
Then you -- so you have local, you have municipal, you have city, you have sheriff, you have federal and state officials. How is this all working and coordinating behind the scenes?
GIAMMO: There are definitely a lot of different levels and . . .
KAGAN: Yeah.
GIAMMO: ... a lot of different agencies. I've been in close ties with our police chief of City of Rockville, Terry Treschuk, over the last week. And, as I understand it, certainly there is a lot to manage in terms of coordination but it has been working very well.
I know even here in the city limits of Rockville we've had a number of different agencies working closely with our city police. And it sounds like it's going very smoothly and everybody's focused on trying to catch the perpetrator.
KAGAN: Mayor Robinson, with all due respect to the people who have lost their loved ones and the other people who have been hurt, I think the shooting that has shocked the most amount of people is the one that took place in Bowie ...
ROBINSON: Right.
KAGAN: ... and that's the 13 year old boy that was shot at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Middle School as he was just going to school.
Are you in touch with that family and do you know how he is doing?
ROBINSON: Well, we tried to meet with the child at the hospital. Obviously he's unavailable. We've tried to make some -- make any contact with the family and assure them of our interest.
I tell people we're a large small town and it's still a community where people will reach out and try to help. And everybody is concerned.
I spoke to a number of the children at the middle school. They're concerned about their classmate obviously. But they're strong and I think the family will benefit from that and the kids will move forward.
KAGAN: We had a chance to visit a little bit here before we went on the air and you both shared with me that technically you both are -- these are part-time jobs as mayors.
I think on an average day even before this it's a big, big full- time job even though it's only part-time. How has it been to rise to that occasion and lead your community in this time of not just pain but also fear?
GIAMMO: Well, I think for me I stepped up to run for mayor to provide leadership on issues that matter to people. And when a challenge like this comes along this is something else I think people look to their elected officials and their police and whatnot to provide leadership on. So unfortunately it's all part of the job.
KAGAN: We've talked a lot and people have been interested in this about people -- how that are adjusting -- events that are canceled.
You had to make a big decision -- a big 10K ...
GIAMMO: Yeah -- Rockville sponsors a 10K race every October and it was scheduled for tomorrow morning ...
KAGAN: It's not going to happen.
GIAMMO: ... and we've canceled that just to be safe. No specific threat but we just want to make sure that we don't unnecessarily but anybody in harm's way.
KAGAN: Was it that or was it also thinking, "You know what? People probably aren't going to even show up?"
GIAMMO: I think there's that, too. People obviously have been adjusting their schedules and their routines. As Fred said, I think we're doing the same thing here -- encouraging people to go about their daily business but at the same time be especially vigilant and aware of your surroundings.
I think at the end of the day what's really important is that these kinds of crimes -- high likelihood they're going to be solved by that one random citizen who happens to see or hear something suspicious and reports it to the police. So we're really encouraging people to keep their eyes open.
KAGAN: And then, finally, of course, this story is being watched by people not across this part of the country but all over the country and all around the world as well. What would you say to people who maybe don't live here, have ties here but how can they help out because they're concerned?
ROBINSON: Well, if they have family here -- call them and reassure them that they're concerned about them. But -- and recognize that the Rockville community and the Bowie community are great family communities and we're going to get through all of this as we have to.
I know Larry's had the same experiences I've had. It's sometimes challenging to do what we do but what's reassuring is when the community comes together and they all stand up and say, "We're going to get it done."
And that's what's -- there is a positive side to this although it's hard to appreciate sometimes.
GIAMMO: The community is strong.
And there is the reward fund that people have been contributing to. And I understand it's already reached a half a million dollars. And it's now turning into a victim relief fund. So people can contribute to that.
But I'll echo what Fred said -- if anybody out there has a family member or friend that lives here in the Washington, DC area -- pick up the phone and give them a call this weekend and maybe send an e-mail and just say, "Hey -- you're in our thoughts. We're with you."
I've gotten a number of e-mails from folks living around the country that I've known over my lifetime and even some folks that I haven't spoken to in a number of years and it makes a difference. It's nice to know that there are a lot of people out there who are in our corner.
KAGAN: All right -- Larry Giammo, Mayor of Rockville, Maryland, and Mayor Fred Robinson from Bowie -- thank you.
GIAMMO: Thank you.
KAGAN: We know this is a busy time not just for you as mayors but also as family men as well. We appreciate your time.
And Larry Giammo is the mayor of Rockville. Fred, making a good point. He talked about the reward fund. The goal was to get it up to a half a million dollars. It has hit that as of today. And, as he mentioned, now any money that comes into that reward fund will be passed on to families of the victims. Back to you.
WHITFIELD: All right. A lot of that from the generosity of people who live in that area and a lot of folks who don't who have contributed to that fund. Daryn Kagan -- yeah -- go ahead -- sorry.
KAGAN: I'm sorry. I was going to say that people are just frustrated. You drive around these communities -- I'm thinking of being in Atlanta. This could be Alpharetta, Marietta or my hometown in Los Angeles. This could be out in Thousand Oaks or Orange County. People are really touched by this -- not just the tragedy, the people who have lost their loved ones but the way that everyday life has been upset in the Washington, DC area.
WHITFIELD: That's right -- in carrying out just routine, ordinary methods of day to day life, as you said. All right -- Daryn Kagan -- thanks very much.
KAGAN: Sure.
WHITFIELD: We'll see you again shortly from Montgomery County.
KAGAN: OK.
WHITFIELD: Appreciate it.
Well, the physical evidence is one thing but investigators are also trying to determine who did this by trying to study a bit closer the behavior or the pattern of these shootings.
And to help us better understand what the investigators also are looking at is a criminologist. Casey Jordan of Western Connecticut State University, a professor there. Thanks very much. Good to see you.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR, WESTERN CONNECTICUT STATE UNIVERSITY: Glad to be here, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, what kind of information can be extracted to help paint a picture of who might be responsible just based on where these shootings have taken place and the methods in which they have been carried out?
JORDAN: Well, what's really interesting is that to discern patterns we often look at previous types of cases that have similarities. And the frustrating thing about his case is, of course, that there are very few similarities to previous cases. The one shot marksmanship is extremely interesting in this case. Naturally we're very interested in the tarot card and the message that was left on the tarot card.
The cross section of the victims is extremely interesting because there is no pattern. And normally in this type of sniper shooting or spree killing you do see a pattern. You see that the victims are usually quite similar.
So that, of course, is an additional factor we take into consideration when we try to figure out what sort of person would be doing this.
WHITFIELD: Right. In fact, the victims are all very random -- everyone from all different kinds of walks of life, different age brackets, different professions, et cetera.
JORDAN: Absolutely.
WHITFIELD: And so because of that, this is certainly going to make it much more difficult for investigators to figure out the motivation behind these killings, correct?
JORDAN: Absolutely. Spree killers are a law enforcement officer's worst nightmare in any event but most of them have a discernible motive. Most of them are on a mission to rid the world of a particular person. Most of them are on a mission to destroy as many people as possible before they commit suicide.
This particular shooter doesn't seem to show any signs of, number one, stopping or, number two, showing a pattern with his victimology.
Of course, he's not close enough to them to really know who they are or care who they are. He, in my estimation, is trying to prove something to himself. And I think that he is actually engaged in this cat and mouse game with the police and is getting quite a thrill from that as well.
WHITFIELD: In fact, there have been some who believe that this sniper or snipers are probably very much closely watching the media coverage -- that because they seem to be taunting investigators with the I guess the bravery, if you will, of the latest shooting taking place just 50 yards away from where a police officer was taking care of an accident there -- that perhaps his brazen behavior is that cat and mouse game, as you say.
JORDAN: I don't think any of us believe that that was coincidental.
I think that most people who study these sorts of crimes believe that that was done quite intentionally and that that shows that the behavior is escalating.
The only silver lining, if that's true, is that as they step up the pace and gain more confidence they very often become overconfident and trip up in some way. So if that sort of behavior continues I think that we can gain hope that law enforcement will close in and find this person relatively quickly.
WHITFIELD: And often times a case like this is cracked because someone makes a mistake.
JORDAN: All of the time.
WHITFIELD: All right -- thanks very much. Casey Jordan, professor of Western Connecticut State University and a criminologist.
Thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it.
JORDAN: My pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
