Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Saturday
Sniper on the Loose, Part III
Aired October 19, 2002 - 12:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The heightened level of fear in the D.C. area has people of all walks taking great measures to at least feel safer. And our Carol Costello is in Montgomery County, Maryland where the investigation is still underway.
And Carol, it seems that folks are getting quite creative and it's no laughing matter either.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not, but it's very bizarre to see. I'll get to that in just a minute. But Fredricka, it's been four-and-a-half days since the sniper last struck so people are finding a little bit of comfort in that. But as you said, the anxiety level is just so high.
There was a very interesting article on today's "Washington Post" and its' titled "A Region Running Scared." You can see it there, I hope. But anyway, it was an interesting article because it said that maybe the anxiety level is too high here in the Washington area. For example, they've suspended all outdoor activities for children, daycare and youth soccer leagues are in lockdown or they've been canceled, the antique auto show has been postponed, the weekly farmer's market has been postponed and the arts festival in Bethesda has been canceled.
And I've been talking to many people and it's just a bizarre sight to see people pumping gas and the measures they go to to protect themselves. Some people hide behind their cars and pretend they're checking out their tires.
But take a look at this Texaco station in Fairfax County. You can see the owners of this Texaco station have put a huge blue tarp shielding the people pumping gas from the street. And apparently this has been a big boom to business here because people feel a little bit safer.
But, again, this article is questioning, "Is the anxiety level too high?" Should people really try to live their lives as normal? Should all of these outdoor activities be postponed?" And they're all good questions.
But, Fredricka, you have to admit it is a scary time here in Washington because I myself keep looking over my shoulder because you just never know.
WHITFIELD: Yeah. And you being from the area or having lived and worked there -- did you find that your behavior perhaps was a little different when going back to the Washington area this time around?
COSTELLO: I left Washington to move to Atlanta at the height of the Anthrax scare and I remember how frightening it was just to get my mail. I actually taped my letter slot in my door closed so the mailman couldn't put the letters in my house.
But I must say this time around it's more scary because anybody can be targeted. And I'm staying on the 11th floor of a hotel in downtown Washington and there's another high rise building -- as high rise as they get here -- right across from my building. And I did have the thought that if a sniper was in the next building he could shoot right through my window. And I would have never thought that before.
WHITFIELD: Yeah. It is certainly a frightening situation there. Thanks very much. Carol Costello from Montgomery County, Maryland.
Well, with me to talk more about the sniper investigation are CNN Criminologist Casey Jordan in New York and in Houston Don Clark, a former FBI lead investigator. Good to see both of you.
DON CLARK, FORMER FBI LEAD INVESTIGATOR: Good afternoon, Fredricka.
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Hi.
WHITFIELD: Well, we're hearing from police investigators that they're not quite ready to reveal whether there is a connection being made between the shell casing found in the rental car in the Virginia area near Dulles Airport and this sniper shooting.
So, Don, let me begin with you. What kind of tests are being taken now to try and match the shell casing with the evidence they have already gathered at other crime scenes as it relates to this investigation?
CLARK: Well, Fredricka, I really empathize with those police and the law enforcement people that what they're doing right now because they're really agonizing. They're going through every type of scientific test that they've got with the various laboratories to really see if perhaps that shell casing that was found has any connection with the ones that they've previously found.
Now whether or not that they will expose that information or not will be left up to them because they're also faced with the other task of what evidence, what information can they give out to the public that will be beneficial in trying to identify this person?
WHITFIELD: Well, they were very quick to discern the relationship between the other bullet casings and match them up with this .223 -- the common bullet that has been used.
Do you suppose they really do have the answer already -- it's just they're being a little more cautioned about releasing publicly?
CLARK: Well, I would think -- I couldn't guess as to whether or not they have it or not. But I would think that they just want to be very sure at what they're putting out there. And will the information they put out benefit the identification and capture of this individual? That's really the question that they have to ask themselves when they're deciding what information can they afford to put out to the public.
I would think that they really want to put some information out because it's going to be the public that will solve this case as it has -- when I say "solve this case" -- identify or provide the information that leads to the identification of this person as it has in cases like this in the past.
WHITFIELD: And perhaps even a mistake. So, Casey, let me bring you into this. If it turns out there is a connection -- and, once again, for those who are just now tuning in, there has not been a connection drawn between the casing found in the rental car and these sniper shootings.
But if a link is made, would you think that this is perhaps the work of getting very sloppy, being very overly confident because there have been many who have said that it's going to take a mistake being made perhaps in order to help lead to an arrest?
JORDAN: I do agree with that. I would link it to being overly confident. I'm reminded of the World Trade Center bombings from 10 years ago, if you recall, not 9/11.
But the reason we were able to get our suspects in that case was because some of the perpetrators returned to the car rental agency to get their deposit back. And an investigator was actually there at the counter following up some leads on trucks that had been rented and put in the parking garage at World Trade.
So it's amazing how overly confident some of these criminals can be.
The fact that they would have possibly rented a truck and left a shell casing in it seems almost too good to be true. And that is why I can appreciate why the police are being extremely careful in this particular instance. They don't want to let information out that could put us in the wrong direction.
There are some feasible explanations. Somebody could have rented this truck, been moving their furniture and somehow a shell casing rolled out of a dresser.
It seems implausible but let's not jump to conclusions until we hear from them on Monday.
WHITFIELD: The last shooting of Linda Franklin in the Virginia area that eyewitness accounts place that sniper just 30 yards away from the victim. That was another indicator perhaps the most profound indicator of this level of confidence that perhaps this sniper seems to be exhibiting.
Casey, do you believe that that exhibits a level of brazenness that -- and almost a kind of "catch me if you can" to police investigators?
JORDAN: We saw little steps that indicated an escalation in the confidence and this is consistent with power control oriented serial killers who do enjoy the chess game with law enforcement and the media.
We saw the step up in confidence with the shooting on the Friday before -- Mr. Bridges at the gas station -- where the shooting took place 50 yards from the state trooper. Then, of course, a step up on Monday where it took place in a crowded parking garage in front of a well-trafficked area, in front of the victim's husband.
We're all, of course, hoping and praying there are no further shootings but if there are I wouldn't be surprised if the level of confidence stepped up even further.
WHITFIELD: All right. Don, you mentioned it's difficult to imagine what investigators are going through right now as they continue to sift through this van at the rental car agency.
A few thoughts come to mind though. If it turns out there is a connection between that rental car van and the shootings then that leads one to believe or think that perhaps this was an out-of-towner returning the vehicle and it is right close to Dulles Airport. Or perhaps this still might be someone from the area who would rent this vehicle and maybe change vehicles now?
CLARK: Well, you're absolutely right. I think that all of those theories and all of that speculation will be looked at as options that they need to look at. Was it someone that's out of town?
I would probably weigh in on the fact that it maybe be someone from around the area because I still say that this person knows too much about the area and decides to change vehicles.
And I think the other question begs, too -- is that the first shooting I believe occurred on October 2 and what timeframe in here was this truck rented and returned into them? And why wasn't this reported just a little bit different?
But -- so I think those options will definitely be considered but I think it's in town.
But just to -- what your other guest mentioned about the World Trade Center in 1993. I ran that arrest operation and got the guy at the rental car over in New Jersey. And people still today can't imagine that this person came back to pick up a lousy $350 after having destroyed the building there.
So it is very difficult to determine what these people will think about and doing because they're patterns are their patterns. And my experience as an investigator in managing these cases that usually they'll try to keep with that pattern.
That's why I think this person knows that area in the D.C. area that you and I both have talked about. WHITFIELD: Don, a question was asked during the press briefing about an hour and a half now to Chief Moose -- why was that rental car agency not I guess prepared as a crime scene immediately after an attendant there found this bullet casing? Do you see that the level of frustration is also growing just as the level of fear is in that area involving the police investigators? We saw what appeared to be a very agitated police chief who said they responded as best they could give the information and circumstances.
CLARK: Well, I'm sure, Fredricka, that there is some frustration. I really empathize with what's going on right now because you know that they are sifting through every particular lead. Those that they have reviewed some time ago that they are now re- reviewing them again to see if there's anything else that they can develop and I'm sure going after this rental car company picking up this particular shell casing brought about some anxieties that may have turned not to be what the speculations might have been.
So you've got all of these dynamics that's working. But that's what law enforcement officers do. You have ups and downs, highs and lows and you can't let that move you away from your focus because your focus is still to sort through to find that bit of information that's going to help you to identify who this person might be. And I suspect that they're going to do that.
WHITFIELD: Casey, is there a way to evaluate what has taken place involving police investigators now? We heard from Chief Moose who said the next briefing -- public briefing -- scheduled is for Monday now. And that is quite different than the strategy we've been seeing of these very regular briefings.
Is this an indicator to you that perhaps they really may be moving closer in to finding a suspect? Or perhaps there is an awful lot more work to do before being able to release anymore bits of information?
CLARK: Well, I would hope as I suspect most of us do that they are moving closer to identifying who it is. But I -- but in reality I have to think that there's just much, much, much, more work to be done to try and get to a point that they need to be to help identify this.
And we've heard all of the time that they have thousands of leads and tips to come through. And you just can't afford to leave any of those unturned. And perhaps right now that none of those leads are certainly producing information that's going to be beneficial to the public in helping to find and identify this person.
WHITFIELD: All right -- thanks, Don. Casey, quickly, how do you see that?
JORDAN: Well, I think the gap in time might be indicative that whether or not the ballistic results are conclusive or not I think that they're going to use the next two days to work extremely hard on finding out who the renter of that truck was and follow up with everyone who may have rented the truck in the last two or three weeks.
I think that might be why they need that gap of tomorrow.
WHITFIELD: All right -- Casey Jordan and Don Clark -- thank you very much both of you for joining us.
CLARK: Thank you.
JORDAN: Happy to be here.
WHITFIELD: Well, you can find out more about the ongoing sniper investigation in a CNN special this evening -- "Sniper on the Loose: A Search for the Killer" is coming up at 8:00 Eastern Time tonight.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 19, 2002 - 12:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The heightened level of fear in the D.C. area has people of all walks taking great measures to at least feel safer. And our Carol Costello is in Montgomery County, Maryland where the investigation is still underway.
And Carol, it seems that folks are getting quite creative and it's no laughing matter either.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not, but it's very bizarre to see. I'll get to that in just a minute. But Fredricka, it's been four-and-a-half days since the sniper last struck so people are finding a little bit of comfort in that. But as you said, the anxiety level is just so high.
There was a very interesting article on today's "Washington Post" and its' titled "A Region Running Scared." You can see it there, I hope. But anyway, it was an interesting article because it said that maybe the anxiety level is too high here in the Washington area. For example, they've suspended all outdoor activities for children, daycare and youth soccer leagues are in lockdown or they've been canceled, the antique auto show has been postponed, the weekly farmer's market has been postponed and the arts festival in Bethesda has been canceled.
And I've been talking to many people and it's just a bizarre sight to see people pumping gas and the measures they go to to protect themselves. Some people hide behind their cars and pretend they're checking out their tires.
But take a look at this Texaco station in Fairfax County. You can see the owners of this Texaco station have put a huge blue tarp shielding the people pumping gas from the street. And apparently this has been a big boom to business here because people feel a little bit safer.
But, again, this article is questioning, "Is the anxiety level too high?" Should people really try to live their lives as normal? Should all of these outdoor activities be postponed?" And they're all good questions.
But, Fredricka, you have to admit it is a scary time here in Washington because I myself keep looking over my shoulder because you just never know.
WHITFIELD: Yeah. And you being from the area or having lived and worked there -- did you find that your behavior perhaps was a little different when going back to the Washington area this time around?
COSTELLO: I left Washington to move to Atlanta at the height of the Anthrax scare and I remember how frightening it was just to get my mail. I actually taped my letter slot in my door closed so the mailman couldn't put the letters in my house.
But I must say this time around it's more scary because anybody can be targeted. And I'm staying on the 11th floor of a hotel in downtown Washington and there's another high rise building -- as high rise as they get here -- right across from my building. And I did have the thought that if a sniper was in the next building he could shoot right through my window. And I would have never thought that before.
WHITFIELD: Yeah. It is certainly a frightening situation there. Thanks very much. Carol Costello from Montgomery County, Maryland.
Well, with me to talk more about the sniper investigation are CNN Criminologist Casey Jordan in New York and in Houston Don Clark, a former FBI lead investigator. Good to see both of you.
DON CLARK, FORMER FBI LEAD INVESTIGATOR: Good afternoon, Fredricka.
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Hi.
WHITFIELD: Well, we're hearing from police investigators that they're not quite ready to reveal whether there is a connection being made between the shell casing found in the rental car in the Virginia area near Dulles Airport and this sniper shooting.
So, Don, let me begin with you. What kind of tests are being taken now to try and match the shell casing with the evidence they have already gathered at other crime scenes as it relates to this investigation?
CLARK: Well, Fredricka, I really empathize with those police and the law enforcement people that what they're doing right now because they're really agonizing. They're going through every type of scientific test that they've got with the various laboratories to really see if perhaps that shell casing that was found has any connection with the ones that they've previously found.
Now whether or not that they will expose that information or not will be left up to them because they're also faced with the other task of what evidence, what information can they give out to the public that will be beneficial in trying to identify this person?
WHITFIELD: Well, they were very quick to discern the relationship between the other bullet casings and match them up with this .223 -- the common bullet that has been used.
Do you suppose they really do have the answer already -- it's just they're being a little more cautioned about releasing publicly?
CLARK: Well, I would think -- I couldn't guess as to whether or not they have it or not. But I would think that they just want to be very sure at what they're putting out there. And will the information they put out benefit the identification and capture of this individual? That's really the question that they have to ask themselves when they're deciding what information can they afford to put out to the public.
I would think that they really want to put some information out because it's going to be the public that will solve this case as it has -- when I say "solve this case" -- identify or provide the information that leads to the identification of this person as it has in cases like this in the past.
WHITFIELD: And perhaps even a mistake. So, Casey, let me bring you into this. If it turns out there is a connection -- and, once again, for those who are just now tuning in, there has not been a connection drawn between the casing found in the rental car and these sniper shootings.
But if a link is made, would you think that this is perhaps the work of getting very sloppy, being very overly confident because there have been many who have said that it's going to take a mistake being made perhaps in order to help lead to an arrest?
JORDAN: I do agree with that. I would link it to being overly confident. I'm reminded of the World Trade Center bombings from 10 years ago, if you recall, not 9/11.
But the reason we were able to get our suspects in that case was because some of the perpetrators returned to the car rental agency to get their deposit back. And an investigator was actually there at the counter following up some leads on trucks that had been rented and put in the parking garage at World Trade.
So it's amazing how overly confident some of these criminals can be.
The fact that they would have possibly rented a truck and left a shell casing in it seems almost too good to be true. And that is why I can appreciate why the police are being extremely careful in this particular instance. They don't want to let information out that could put us in the wrong direction.
There are some feasible explanations. Somebody could have rented this truck, been moving their furniture and somehow a shell casing rolled out of a dresser.
It seems implausible but let's not jump to conclusions until we hear from them on Monday.
WHITFIELD: The last shooting of Linda Franklin in the Virginia area that eyewitness accounts place that sniper just 30 yards away from the victim. That was another indicator perhaps the most profound indicator of this level of confidence that perhaps this sniper seems to be exhibiting.
Casey, do you believe that that exhibits a level of brazenness that -- and almost a kind of "catch me if you can" to police investigators?
JORDAN: We saw little steps that indicated an escalation in the confidence and this is consistent with power control oriented serial killers who do enjoy the chess game with law enforcement and the media.
We saw the step up in confidence with the shooting on the Friday before -- Mr. Bridges at the gas station -- where the shooting took place 50 yards from the state trooper. Then, of course, a step up on Monday where it took place in a crowded parking garage in front of a well-trafficked area, in front of the victim's husband.
We're all, of course, hoping and praying there are no further shootings but if there are I wouldn't be surprised if the level of confidence stepped up even further.
WHITFIELD: All right. Don, you mentioned it's difficult to imagine what investigators are going through right now as they continue to sift through this van at the rental car agency.
A few thoughts come to mind though. If it turns out there is a connection between that rental car van and the shootings then that leads one to believe or think that perhaps this was an out-of-towner returning the vehicle and it is right close to Dulles Airport. Or perhaps this still might be someone from the area who would rent this vehicle and maybe change vehicles now?
CLARK: Well, you're absolutely right. I think that all of those theories and all of that speculation will be looked at as options that they need to look at. Was it someone that's out of town?
I would probably weigh in on the fact that it maybe be someone from around the area because I still say that this person knows too much about the area and decides to change vehicles.
And I think the other question begs, too -- is that the first shooting I believe occurred on October 2 and what timeframe in here was this truck rented and returned into them? And why wasn't this reported just a little bit different?
But -- so I think those options will definitely be considered but I think it's in town.
But just to -- what your other guest mentioned about the World Trade Center in 1993. I ran that arrest operation and got the guy at the rental car over in New Jersey. And people still today can't imagine that this person came back to pick up a lousy $350 after having destroyed the building there.
So it is very difficult to determine what these people will think about and doing because they're patterns are their patterns. And my experience as an investigator in managing these cases that usually they'll try to keep with that pattern.
That's why I think this person knows that area in the D.C. area that you and I both have talked about. WHITFIELD: Don, a question was asked during the press briefing about an hour and a half now to Chief Moose -- why was that rental car agency not I guess prepared as a crime scene immediately after an attendant there found this bullet casing? Do you see that the level of frustration is also growing just as the level of fear is in that area involving the police investigators? We saw what appeared to be a very agitated police chief who said they responded as best they could give the information and circumstances.
CLARK: Well, I'm sure, Fredricka, that there is some frustration. I really empathize with what's going on right now because you know that they are sifting through every particular lead. Those that they have reviewed some time ago that they are now re- reviewing them again to see if there's anything else that they can develop and I'm sure going after this rental car company picking up this particular shell casing brought about some anxieties that may have turned not to be what the speculations might have been.
So you've got all of these dynamics that's working. But that's what law enforcement officers do. You have ups and downs, highs and lows and you can't let that move you away from your focus because your focus is still to sort through to find that bit of information that's going to help you to identify who this person might be. And I suspect that they're going to do that.
WHITFIELD: Casey, is there a way to evaluate what has taken place involving police investigators now? We heard from Chief Moose who said the next briefing -- public briefing -- scheduled is for Monday now. And that is quite different than the strategy we've been seeing of these very regular briefings.
Is this an indicator to you that perhaps they really may be moving closer in to finding a suspect? Or perhaps there is an awful lot more work to do before being able to release anymore bits of information?
CLARK: Well, I would hope as I suspect most of us do that they are moving closer to identifying who it is. But I -- but in reality I have to think that there's just much, much, much, more work to be done to try and get to a point that they need to be to help identify this.
And we've heard all of the time that they have thousands of leads and tips to come through. And you just can't afford to leave any of those unturned. And perhaps right now that none of those leads are certainly producing information that's going to be beneficial to the public in helping to find and identify this person.
WHITFIELD: All right -- thanks, Don. Casey, quickly, how do you see that?
JORDAN: Well, I think the gap in time might be indicative that whether or not the ballistic results are conclusive or not I think that they're going to use the next two days to work extremely hard on finding out who the renter of that truck was and follow up with everyone who may have rented the truck in the last two or three weeks.
I think that might be why they need that gap of tomorrow.
WHITFIELD: All right -- Casey Jordan and Don Clark -- thank you very much both of you for joining us.
CLARK: Thank you.
JORDAN: Happy to be here.
WHITFIELD: Well, you can find out more about the ongoing sniper investigation in a CNN special this evening -- "Sniper on the Loose: A Search for the Killer" is coming up at 8:00 Eastern Time tonight.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
