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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With Jim Walsh

Aired November 09, 2002 - 17:13   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: New revelations about a CIA strike against suspected al Qaeda operatives in Yemen. The agency says American Ahmed Hajazi (ph) was one of the six men killed when a Predator drone fired a Hellfire missile at their vehicle. According to "The Washington Post," Hajazi is also known as Kamal Derwish. He allegedly recruited six men for a suspected al Qaeda terrorist cell in Buffalo, New York.
Word of the link is raising some disturbing questions about the U.S. led war against terrorism. Are coalition forces losing momentum against al Qaeda or is the terrorist network changing its tactics? That's what we're hearing from the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Jim Walsh is with the Harvard University -- well, he's an expert on international security and terrorist activities and he joins us now from Boston. Hello, Mr. Walsh.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Hi, Carol Lin.

LIN: All right, taking a look at this situation with this Hellfire missile, an unmanned drone firing at this vehicle, who makes the order for such kind of a strike?

WALSH: Well, it's the CIA that oversaw this operation, perhaps in cooperation with officials in Yemen. I think one of the most interesting things about this is this marks, I think, a turning point in that this is a situation in which the CIA and the military are making a decision and law enforcement is finding out about it after the fact. Traditionally, when dealing with terrorism law enforcement has been the lead, in the lead, and the military has played a complementary role, and here we see a real shift in who's in charge of making those sorts of decisions.

LIN: And what are the implications of that?

WALSH: Well, I think, this attack in particular raises serious questions. Essentially what we have here is an American citizen has been killed by the CIA in a friendly country and without a trial. That marks a new step for American policy. In the past, we've criticized other countries that have targeted individuals and some would argue that it puts us on a slippery slope down the path of assassination.

We used the Predator against or tried to hit Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. Then we used it to go after a warlord rival of President Karzai in Afghanistan, and now we're using it in other countries and now an American has been killed. So, I think it raises serious questions.

LIN: Well, U.S. officials say that the CIA did not know that the American was in that vehicle. Do you believe them?

WALSH: Well sure, and I think it points out one of the problems here. You don't know who else is in the car. It could be a journalist. It could be hostages. It could be a university scholar trying to collect data about al Qaeda, you know someone who's writing a book. It could be anyone and that's one of the risks you have and that's why in the past American presidents, Democrat and Republican, have been reluctant to go down this road.

LIN: So, are you saying that the U.S. is now engaged in targeting killing?

WALSH: Well, this certainly appears to be that. It's hard to describe it in any other way. They were not in a battlefield. They were not in Afghanistan. They were in a friendly country. They picked up the person on a sensor with a Predator and then they killed him. So, I can't figure out how else to describe it other than that.

LIN: Well, it could be just dumb luck.

WALSH: Well, in this case I assume that they, from what I understand they had been tracking his travels and whereabouts for some time. Yemeni officials were interested in apprehending this person or having him removed. American officials were looking for him and so they were able to put a bead on him and then took advantage of that opportunity.

LIN: All right. Turning the question here to something that Richard Myers, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said, he says that al Qaeda is reorganizing, that the United States may be losing some momentum here, that al Qaeda is adapting to the way, you know, we communicate, our understanding of the way they talk to each other, how they pass money. Do you agree with this?

WALSH: Well, I think that makes sense and certainly General Myers would know better than anyone else. Let's look at al Qaeda. It is broken up into small pieces, decentralized organization, and when you have a decentralized organization like that it's easier for them to change and to adapt, and so they're adapting. They're using camouflage and they're changing the way they operate. I think that makes sense and it's harder for the military to adapt. It's a much bigger hierarchical organization, harder for it to change.

But, I think there's something else going on her as well and that is the military option is an important one in the struggle against terrorism but it's not the only one and it has limits, and I think one of the things that General Myers is alluding to is that traditional military tactics are only going to get you so far. If you have an Afghanistan that continues to be ruled by a weak government, where al Qaeda can hide out wherever it wants to because Karzai is too weak to take control and to establish law and order there. Al Qaeda originally went there because it was a broken state and it continues to be a broken state. LIN: Right, but Afghanistan is one thing but the case of Ahmed Hajazi killed in this Yemeni attack, an American citizen recruiting inside the United States is another. So, Hajazi and his ability to allegedly recruit these six men in Buffalo, New York, what are the implications here in terms of how active al Qaeda might be right here in the United States?

WALSH: Well, I think we're going to have to wait to answer that question. Presumably as we move forward with an indictment of the six that were arrested in Buffalo, we'll have more knowledge about that. I mean in some ways it's to be expected. We've had other Americans that were part of the Taliban. Other Americans have been part of al Qaeda as well as nationals from a variety of different countries. So, I don't think we should be surprised. There are going to be some very, very, very, very small number of Americans who will fall under that spell.

LIN: All right, that trial to go forward in Buffalo. Thank you very much Jim Walsh.

WALSH: Thank you, Carol Lin.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 9, 2002 - 17:13   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: New revelations about a CIA strike against suspected al Qaeda operatives in Yemen. The agency says American Ahmed Hajazi (ph) was one of the six men killed when a Predator drone fired a Hellfire missile at their vehicle. According to "The Washington Post," Hajazi is also known as Kamal Derwish. He allegedly recruited six men for a suspected al Qaeda terrorist cell in Buffalo, New York.
Word of the link is raising some disturbing questions about the U.S. led war against terrorism. Are coalition forces losing momentum against al Qaeda or is the terrorist network changing its tactics? That's what we're hearing from the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Jim Walsh is with the Harvard University -- well, he's an expert on international security and terrorist activities and he joins us now from Boston. Hello, Mr. Walsh.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Hi, Carol Lin.

LIN: All right, taking a look at this situation with this Hellfire missile, an unmanned drone firing at this vehicle, who makes the order for such kind of a strike?

WALSH: Well, it's the CIA that oversaw this operation, perhaps in cooperation with officials in Yemen. I think one of the most interesting things about this is this marks, I think, a turning point in that this is a situation in which the CIA and the military are making a decision and law enforcement is finding out about it after the fact. Traditionally, when dealing with terrorism law enforcement has been the lead, in the lead, and the military has played a complementary role, and here we see a real shift in who's in charge of making those sorts of decisions.

LIN: And what are the implications of that?

WALSH: Well, I think, this attack in particular raises serious questions. Essentially what we have here is an American citizen has been killed by the CIA in a friendly country and without a trial. That marks a new step for American policy. In the past, we've criticized other countries that have targeted individuals and some would argue that it puts us on a slippery slope down the path of assassination.

We used the Predator against or tried to hit Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. Then we used it to go after a warlord rival of President Karzai in Afghanistan, and now we're using it in other countries and now an American has been killed. So, I think it raises serious questions.

LIN: Well, U.S. officials say that the CIA did not know that the American was in that vehicle. Do you believe them?

WALSH: Well sure, and I think it points out one of the problems here. You don't know who else is in the car. It could be a journalist. It could be hostages. It could be a university scholar trying to collect data about al Qaeda, you know someone who's writing a book. It could be anyone and that's one of the risks you have and that's why in the past American presidents, Democrat and Republican, have been reluctant to go down this road.

LIN: So, are you saying that the U.S. is now engaged in targeting killing?

WALSH: Well, this certainly appears to be that. It's hard to describe it in any other way. They were not in a battlefield. They were not in Afghanistan. They were in a friendly country. They picked up the person on a sensor with a Predator and then they killed him. So, I can't figure out how else to describe it other than that.

LIN: Well, it could be just dumb luck.

WALSH: Well, in this case I assume that they, from what I understand they had been tracking his travels and whereabouts for some time. Yemeni officials were interested in apprehending this person or having him removed. American officials were looking for him and so they were able to put a bead on him and then took advantage of that opportunity.

LIN: All right. Turning the question here to something that Richard Myers, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said, he says that al Qaeda is reorganizing, that the United States may be losing some momentum here, that al Qaeda is adapting to the way, you know, we communicate, our understanding of the way they talk to each other, how they pass money. Do you agree with this?

WALSH: Well, I think that makes sense and certainly General Myers would know better than anyone else. Let's look at al Qaeda. It is broken up into small pieces, decentralized organization, and when you have a decentralized organization like that it's easier for them to change and to adapt, and so they're adapting. They're using camouflage and they're changing the way they operate. I think that makes sense and it's harder for the military to adapt. It's a much bigger hierarchical organization, harder for it to change.

But, I think there's something else going on her as well and that is the military option is an important one in the struggle against terrorism but it's not the only one and it has limits, and I think one of the things that General Myers is alluding to is that traditional military tactics are only going to get you so far. If you have an Afghanistan that continues to be ruled by a weak government, where al Qaeda can hide out wherever it wants to because Karzai is too weak to take control and to establish law and order there. Al Qaeda originally went there because it was a broken state and it continues to be a broken state. LIN: Right, but Afghanistan is one thing but the case of Ahmed Hajazi killed in this Yemeni attack, an American citizen recruiting inside the United States is another. So, Hajazi and his ability to allegedly recruit these six men in Buffalo, New York, what are the implications here in terms of how active al Qaeda might be right here in the United States?

WALSH: Well, I think we're going to have to wait to answer that question. Presumably as we move forward with an indictment of the six that were arrested in Buffalo, we'll have more knowledge about that. I mean in some ways it's to be expected. We've had other Americans that were part of the Taliban. Other Americans have been part of al Qaeda as well as nationals from a variety of different countries. So, I don't think we should be surprised. There are going to be some very, very, very, very small number of Americans who will fall under that spell.

LIN: All right, that trial to go forward in Buffalo. Thank you very much Jim Walsh.

WALSH: Thank you, Carol Lin.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com