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CNN Live Saturday
Interviews With Adel Al-Jubeir, Bill Powell
Aired November 23, 2002 - 17:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with the money trail in the war on terror. Did cash from Saudi Arabia's government line the pockets of the 9/11 hijackers? Investigators say the wife of the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Princess Haifa al-Faisal, may have played a role in passing the money along.
Now sources say she sent the money to two college students in the United States, Omar al-Bayoumi, and Osama Basnan. Her reason for sending them the money are not quite clear yet but the money from al- Faisal eventually made its way to two hijackers in San Diego, California, Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi. "NEWSWEEK'S" Michael Isikoff, has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL ISIKOFF, NEWSWEEK: There has been no explanation for why such a high-ranking official or the wife of such a high-ranking official would route money to a seeming nobody in San Diego. Now, it is also pointed out by Saudi diplomats and people who work for the Saudi government that it is not uncommon as a form of Muslim charity for wealthy Saudis to provide financial assistance to struggling students in the United States. So, there could be an innocent explanation for this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Well, perhaps it's understandable right now that the White House is staying pretty quiet about this report, not really reacting. After all, Saudi Arabia is one of the U.S. closest allies in the Persian Gulf, while President Bush is planning war with Iraq. White House officials traveling with the president from Romania say the FBI and the CIA will not talk about an ongoing investigation.
But we do have exclusive reaction from the Saudi royal family. Just a short time ago, I spoke with Adel al-Jubeir, the foreign policy adviser to the Saudi Crown Prince about this case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Mr. Al-Jubeir, thank you very much for joining us from Riyadh today.
ADEL AL-JUBEIR, FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER TO SAUDI CROWN PRINCE: You're very welcome. My pleasure.
LIN: What do you make of this congressional report that two of the Pentagon attackers may have actually received money from the Saudi government?
AL-JUBEIR: Well, Carol, we looked into this. The FBI has investigated this. There's no evidence to that effect whatsoever. The two hijackers who were in San Diego received some advance payments from Mr. Bayoumi, to pay their rent for the first two months, and I believe they paid it back. But that was about it. The FBI had questioned Mr. Bayoumi in England, where he was detained, and then he was released. He may still be under investigation. We're not sure of it. As far as Mr. Basnan is concerned, he was detained by the FBI. He was questioned, he was found to be in violation of his visa status, and as far as we are aware, he was scheduled to be deported last Sunday.
LIN: Let's go back a few steps here, because we understand that the princess was passing on money to these two students. It was some form of a stipend from the Saudi government. Can you explain what the princess' relationship was to these two students and what this money was about?
AL-JUBEIR: Yes, Carol. Because again, here's one of those things that seems to have gone lost in the hysteria surrounding it. Princess Haifa is a very generous woman that cares deeply about the welfare of Saudi citizens, and particularly those in need. She donates large amounts of moneys to charities, to orphanages, to individuals in need, and so forth.
With regards to the two individuals, after the story broke, her office did a thorough investigation, which is still ongoing, and they determined that there was no money, no check that went from Princess Haifa directly to either of these two individuals.
What they have found is that checks had gone to a lady by the name of Magda Ibrahim Ahmed (ph) at an address in Arlington, Virginia and then subsequently an address in Baltimore. They don't know who this lady is or how she was able to get on Princess Haifa's the recipient list. The office of Princess Haifa then contacted the bank over the weekend, and they are going through the files at the bank.
What they have found so far is that slightly more than half of the checks that went to this lady, Magda Ahmed (ph), had been endorsed by her to three individuals. One is Osama Basnan, the second one is Janet Basnan, who we do not know yet who she is or if she's related to Mr. Basnan or not. And the third individual was Manal (ph) Bayoumi, who we assume is Mr. Bayoumi's wife.
But like I said, Princess Haifa is not aware how this lady was able to get on her recipient list, nor do we know why she endorsed the checks -- some of the checks that were coming to her to these three individuals, and her office is very diligently pursuing this -- these leads to try to establish the facts as we speak.
LIN: So, Mr. Al-Jubeir, you're saying that there is absolutely no connection between the Saudi ambassador's wife and these students who eventually received this money somehow, and then that money then being passed on to the 9/11 hijackers? AL-JUBEIR: Absolutely. Well, to begin with, Carol, the FBI in its -- investigated this matter six months ago. The FBI was in touch with our embassy in Washington on this matter six months ago. The embassy cooperated with them fully, because apparently in one of the two gentlemen's apartments, there were the names and telephone numbers of some individuals who work at the Saudi embassy, and so that's why -- that's how the embassy got involved in this.
But the FBI, as far as we were concerned, was satisfied that there was no link between Saudi Arabia or the embassy and these individuals. And so, that's sort of where we stand now.
Now, six months later, what we find surprising is that in Congress, they -- these charges come out. We read about it in the media, which leads me to believe that there a lot of political play here that may not be in line with the facts as we know them, as the FBI knows them, or the facts as Princess Haifa's office has determined.
In response to your question, did she know where the checks were going? No, she helps a lot of people. Did she write checks to Mr. Bayoumi or Mr. Basnan? Absolutely not. What we discovered and what her office discovered and is still looking into is how the checks that went to this lady, Magda Ahmed (ph), ended up being endorsed by her to three individuals, one of them is Mr. Basnan and the other one, we believe but are not sure yet, may have been Mr. Bayoumi's wife.
LIN: And despite what you're saying, that the FBI has investigated these claims of money funneled from the Saudi government, the congressional committee, as well as members of the FBI and the intelligence community, are saying that the Saudi government is not cooperating with the overall 9/11 investigation, that very little has really been discovered about who these men are. Your response to that, and the level of cooperation from the Saudi government? What is the nature of your role in the investigation?
AL-JUBEIR: Carol, I'm glad you asked this question, because there's been a lot of fiction surrounding it. I don't believe there are any two governments that are cooperating more closely than your government and my government on this matter. We have provided the FBI with backgrounds on these individuals. We have worked with the FBI and with the U.S. government, other agencies of the U.S. government, to track the financing of terrorists around the world. We have closed accounts. We have worked with our charities. We have audited them. We have put financial control mechanisms in place. We have uncovered cells not only in Saudi Arabia but in a number of other countries. We have worked for the extradition of individuals from other countries to Saudi Arabia or to the United States. We have shared intelligence.
I don't believe that there's anything that can be done that we haven't done, because ultimately, Carol, it is your country and my country that are in the crosshairs of al Qaeda, and we have been pursuing them for a number of years, and we'll continue to pursue them mercilessly. Because that's the only way that we can rid this region of this scourge. And so, talk by individuals who do so anonymously, or leaks that are fabricated really don't serve the purpose. It shouldn't be surprising that the president, the secretary of state, and all of your senior officials consistently and on the record have stated that Saudi Arabia has been most cooperative in this effort.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, Mr. Adel Al-Jubeir, the Saudi foreign policy adviser to the Saudi crown prince, for joining us tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A CNN exclusive.
Well, is this the first time the money trail behind the attacks has actually pointed at the Saudi government? Bill Powell, a senior writer with "Fortune" magazine joins us from New York to look at that question. Bill, I know that you and your magazine have been looking deeply into this question for the last year, and I'm wondering from your standpoint, I mean is it possible, is it really conceivable that the wife of the Saudi ambassador to the United States could be involved in funneling money to terrorists?
BILL POWELL, FORTUNE MAGAZINE: I think it's doubtful that she, as Mr. al-Jubeir indicated, it's probably doubtful that she knew where the money was going to end up. Is it possible, however, that money that comes from her or from her foundation winds up in the pockets of al Qaeda? That unfortunately is possible.
LIN: So, but does that mean that the Saudi Government is directly responsible then?
POWELL: Well, here you get into, Carol, deep murk. The Saudis as we just heard have consistently since September 11th and since the stories began to emerge as to where at least a good portion of the funding over the years that al Qaeda draws upon, since we've heard it, it comes from the kingdom.
The government has insisted that for the most part these are private donations to Islamic charities and where the money goes once it's donated by the charities is something that they hadn't followed very closely and, therefore, no they wash their hands of the issue.
Now, clearly there are officials within the FBI who are very suspicious of this notion and want the Saudis to look into it frankly more closely than they have. Yes, as Mr. al-Jubeir indicated, they have made efforts. They have tightened the audits on some of these charities. They have enforced some new registration guidelines for donors. But nonetheless, the fact of the matter is there is dissatisfaction in American law enforcement, both at the FBI and at the Treasury with the depth of the help that we're getting from the Saudis.
LIN: Do you have some examples?
POWELL: Specific examples, no, but there are a lot, there are several investigations underway and, in particular, it is the link between the private donors and the Islamic charities that investigators have focused on and, I think, despite the new regulations that have been established in the kingdom, the FBI is still very curious I guess the word would be as to how rigorously those new enforcement mechanisms are being imposed in the kingdom.
LIN: Yes, and it's a tricky situation in that the relationship between the Saudi royal family and its people is often based on money. I mean this is a country where the family for a long period of time would actually write checks and subsidize entire families, you know, entire families, entire populations would receive an annual stipend on which they would live. Large sections of the population don't even have to work. This is the buying of goodwill you might say.
POWELL: Very much so. That continues not to the extent that it used to in the hay day when the petrol dollars were really flowing, but that financial relationship is very real. The other thing that one has to remember is that the Saudi Government, indeed the royal family's legitimacy is very much maintained by the relationship with the Islamic clerics in that country.
They are very much joined at the hip and it is very difficult for the royal family to come out and really crack down on what are supposed to be charitable donations to charities that are very much within the good graces of the clerics in that country.
LIN: Well, that really explains why it is so difficult to follow that money trail in Saudi Arabia all the way to the 9/11 hijackers.
POWELL: I have great sympathy for the foreign investigators, for the FBI people who have to drop parachute in there and try to get to the bottom of this.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Bill Powell, senior writer for "Fortune" Magazine.
POWELL: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 23, 2002 - 17:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with the money trail in the war on terror. Did cash from Saudi Arabia's government line the pockets of the 9/11 hijackers? Investigators say the wife of the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Princess Haifa al-Faisal, may have played a role in passing the money along.
Now sources say she sent the money to two college students in the United States, Omar al-Bayoumi, and Osama Basnan. Her reason for sending them the money are not quite clear yet but the money from al- Faisal eventually made its way to two hijackers in San Diego, California, Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi. "NEWSWEEK'S" Michael Isikoff, has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL ISIKOFF, NEWSWEEK: There has been no explanation for why such a high-ranking official or the wife of such a high-ranking official would route money to a seeming nobody in San Diego. Now, it is also pointed out by Saudi diplomats and people who work for the Saudi government that it is not uncommon as a form of Muslim charity for wealthy Saudis to provide financial assistance to struggling students in the United States. So, there could be an innocent explanation for this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Well, perhaps it's understandable right now that the White House is staying pretty quiet about this report, not really reacting. After all, Saudi Arabia is one of the U.S. closest allies in the Persian Gulf, while President Bush is planning war with Iraq. White House officials traveling with the president from Romania say the FBI and the CIA will not talk about an ongoing investigation.
But we do have exclusive reaction from the Saudi royal family. Just a short time ago, I spoke with Adel al-Jubeir, the foreign policy adviser to the Saudi Crown Prince about this case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Mr. Al-Jubeir, thank you very much for joining us from Riyadh today.
ADEL AL-JUBEIR, FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER TO SAUDI CROWN PRINCE: You're very welcome. My pleasure.
LIN: What do you make of this congressional report that two of the Pentagon attackers may have actually received money from the Saudi government?
AL-JUBEIR: Well, Carol, we looked into this. The FBI has investigated this. There's no evidence to that effect whatsoever. The two hijackers who were in San Diego received some advance payments from Mr. Bayoumi, to pay their rent for the first two months, and I believe they paid it back. But that was about it. The FBI had questioned Mr. Bayoumi in England, where he was detained, and then he was released. He may still be under investigation. We're not sure of it. As far as Mr. Basnan is concerned, he was detained by the FBI. He was questioned, he was found to be in violation of his visa status, and as far as we are aware, he was scheduled to be deported last Sunday.
LIN: Let's go back a few steps here, because we understand that the princess was passing on money to these two students. It was some form of a stipend from the Saudi government. Can you explain what the princess' relationship was to these two students and what this money was about?
AL-JUBEIR: Yes, Carol. Because again, here's one of those things that seems to have gone lost in the hysteria surrounding it. Princess Haifa is a very generous woman that cares deeply about the welfare of Saudi citizens, and particularly those in need. She donates large amounts of moneys to charities, to orphanages, to individuals in need, and so forth.
With regards to the two individuals, after the story broke, her office did a thorough investigation, which is still ongoing, and they determined that there was no money, no check that went from Princess Haifa directly to either of these two individuals.
What they have found is that checks had gone to a lady by the name of Magda Ibrahim Ahmed (ph) at an address in Arlington, Virginia and then subsequently an address in Baltimore. They don't know who this lady is or how she was able to get on Princess Haifa's the recipient list. The office of Princess Haifa then contacted the bank over the weekend, and they are going through the files at the bank.
What they have found so far is that slightly more than half of the checks that went to this lady, Magda Ahmed (ph), had been endorsed by her to three individuals. One is Osama Basnan, the second one is Janet Basnan, who we do not know yet who she is or if she's related to Mr. Basnan or not. And the third individual was Manal (ph) Bayoumi, who we assume is Mr. Bayoumi's wife.
But like I said, Princess Haifa is not aware how this lady was able to get on her recipient list, nor do we know why she endorsed the checks -- some of the checks that were coming to her to these three individuals, and her office is very diligently pursuing this -- these leads to try to establish the facts as we speak.
LIN: So, Mr. Al-Jubeir, you're saying that there is absolutely no connection between the Saudi ambassador's wife and these students who eventually received this money somehow, and then that money then being passed on to the 9/11 hijackers? AL-JUBEIR: Absolutely. Well, to begin with, Carol, the FBI in its -- investigated this matter six months ago. The FBI was in touch with our embassy in Washington on this matter six months ago. The embassy cooperated with them fully, because apparently in one of the two gentlemen's apartments, there were the names and telephone numbers of some individuals who work at the Saudi embassy, and so that's why -- that's how the embassy got involved in this.
But the FBI, as far as we were concerned, was satisfied that there was no link between Saudi Arabia or the embassy and these individuals. And so, that's sort of where we stand now.
Now, six months later, what we find surprising is that in Congress, they -- these charges come out. We read about it in the media, which leads me to believe that there a lot of political play here that may not be in line with the facts as we know them, as the FBI knows them, or the facts as Princess Haifa's office has determined.
In response to your question, did she know where the checks were going? No, she helps a lot of people. Did she write checks to Mr. Bayoumi or Mr. Basnan? Absolutely not. What we discovered and what her office discovered and is still looking into is how the checks that went to this lady, Magda Ahmed (ph), ended up being endorsed by her to three individuals, one of them is Mr. Basnan and the other one, we believe but are not sure yet, may have been Mr. Bayoumi's wife.
LIN: And despite what you're saying, that the FBI has investigated these claims of money funneled from the Saudi government, the congressional committee, as well as members of the FBI and the intelligence community, are saying that the Saudi government is not cooperating with the overall 9/11 investigation, that very little has really been discovered about who these men are. Your response to that, and the level of cooperation from the Saudi government? What is the nature of your role in the investigation?
AL-JUBEIR: Carol, I'm glad you asked this question, because there's been a lot of fiction surrounding it. I don't believe there are any two governments that are cooperating more closely than your government and my government on this matter. We have provided the FBI with backgrounds on these individuals. We have worked with the FBI and with the U.S. government, other agencies of the U.S. government, to track the financing of terrorists around the world. We have closed accounts. We have worked with our charities. We have audited them. We have put financial control mechanisms in place. We have uncovered cells not only in Saudi Arabia but in a number of other countries. We have worked for the extradition of individuals from other countries to Saudi Arabia or to the United States. We have shared intelligence.
I don't believe that there's anything that can be done that we haven't done, because ultimately, Carol, it is your country and my country that are in the crosshairs of al Qaeda, and we have been pursuing them for a number of years, and we'll continue to pursue them mercilessly. Because that's the only way that we can rid this region of this scourge. And so, talk by individuals who do so anonymously, or leaks that are fabricated really don't serve the purpose. It shouldn't be surprising that the president, the secretary of state, and all of your senior officials consistently and on the record have stated that Saudi Arabia has been most cooperative in this effort.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, Mr. Adel Al-Jubeir, the Saudi foreign policy adviser to the Saudi crown prince, for joining us tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A CNN exclusive.
Well, is this the first time the money trail behind the attacks has actually pointed at the Saudi government? Bill Powell, a senior writer with "Fortune" magazine joins us from New York to look at that question. Bill, I know that you and your magazine have been looking deeply into this question for the last year, and I'm wondering from your standpoint, I mean is it possible, is it really conceivable that the wife of the Saudi ambassador to the United States could be involved in funneling money to terrorists?
BILL POWELL, FORTUNE MAGAZINE: I think it's doubtful that she, as Mr. al-Jubeir indicated, it's probably doubtful that she knew where the money was going to end up. Is it possible, however, that money that comes from her or from her foundation winds up in the pockets of al Qaeda? That unfortunately is possible.
LIN: So, but does that mean that the Saudi Government is directly responsible then?
POWELL: Well, here you get into, Carol, deep murk. The Saudis as we just heard have consistently since September 11th and since the stories began to emerge as to where at least a good portion of the funding over the years that al Qaeda draws upon, since we've heard it, it comes from the kingdom.
The government has insisted that for the most part these are private donations to Islamic charities and where the money goes once it's donated by the charities is something that they hadn't followed very closely and, therefore, no they wash their hands of the issue.
Now, clearly there are officials within the FBI who are very suspicious of this notion and want the Saudis to look into it frankly more closely than they have. Yes, as Mr. al-Jubeir indicated, they have made efforts. They have tightened the audits on some of these charities. They have enforced some new registration guidelines for donors. But nonetheless, the fact of the matter is there is dissatisfaction in American law enforcement, both at the FBI and at the Treasury with the depth of the help that we're getting from the Saudis.
LIN: Do you have some examples?
POWELL: Specific examples, no, but there are a lot, there are several investigations underway and, in particular, it is the link between the private donors and the Islamic charities that investigators have focused on and, I think, despite the new regulations that have been established in the kingdom, the FBI is still very curious I guess the word would be as to how rigorously those new enforcement mechanisms are being imposed in the kingdom.
LIN: Yes, and it's a tricky situation in that the relationship between the Saudi royal family and its people is often based on money. I mean this is a country where the family for a long period of time would actually write checks and subsidize entire families, you know, entire families, entire populations would receive an annual stipend on which they would live. Large sections of the population don't even have to work. This is the buying of goodwill you might say.
POWELL: Very much so. That continues not to the extent that it used to in the hay day when the petrol dollars were really flowing, but that financial relationship is very real. The other thing that one has to remember is that the Saudi Government, indeed the royal family's legitimacy is very much maintained by the relationship with the Islamic clerics in that country.
They are very much joined at the hip and it is very difficult for the royal family to come out and really crack down on what are supposed to be charitable donations to charities that are very much within the good graces of the clerics in that country.
LIN: Well, that really explains why it is so difficult to follow that money trail in Saudi Arabia all the way to the 9/11 hijackers.
POWELL: I have great sympathy for the foreign investigators, for the FBI people who have to drop parachute in there and try to get to the bottom of this.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Bill Powell, senior writer for "Fortune" Magazine.
POWELL: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
