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CNN Live Saturday
Interview With David Albright, Amy Smithson, Joe Cirincione
Aired December 07, 2002 - 15:18 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: U.N. weapons inspectors in Baghdad now have Iraq's written declaration on weapons of mass destruction a day ahead of deadline. Apparently, the document declares that Iraq has no such weapons and the White House isn't buying that. So what happens next? CNN's Jonathan Karl is at our documents desk in D.C. Hi, Jon.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kyra. Well, while we wait for those documents to come in, we have some of the nation's leading experts on chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. I'm here with Joe Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, an expert on nuclear proliferation, also with Amy Smithson of the Henry Stimson Center, who is an expert on chemical and biological weapons, also here with David Albright, who is a former U.N. weapons inspector himself, and of course CNN analyst, former NATO supreme commander, General Wesley Clark.
Joe, if I can start with you. One of the concerns that's been raised, is that when we finally see this documentation, that it could include something of a road map for terrorists who want to develop their own weapons of mass destruction. How big of a concern is that? What needs to be done about that?
JOE CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: Well, Hans Blix feels it's enough of a concern to hold the documents for at least a day or two so he can see them first and scrub out or excerpt any information, for example, formulas that might be given, critical imports that might have been imported, or, as someone suggested, the names of companies that Iraq bought some of this material from.
So you could unintentionally release sensitive material that could help someone else construct the very weapons we're hoping to...
KARL: In fact, some of this may simply be embarrassing, right, Amy? I mean, these companies in the past, we've seen previous reports, the names of major Western companies that have helped inadvertently, or not inadvertently, develop these weapons?
AMY SMITHSON, HENRY STIMSON CENTER: That could be the case again this time. One would hope that they would have learned their lesson last time around and would have stopped cooperating with countries that are intent on proliferating these weapons.
And also, keep in mind, that throughout this time there's been a group called the Australia Group, which screens requests from different countries for these types of dual-use products. KARL: You're familiar with this process.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I am. One of the things I do in civilian life now is I help companies with compliance. You have to get a grip on what you're doing if you're the company. If you have technology or materials that could be used for some of these programs, you have to know what the risk is and you have to know what your employees are doing, know who your customers are, and you have to really keep up with changing events.
KARL: Now, David, you've been one of the inspectors, one of the interesting issues that's been raised here is the administration wants to see the U.N. weapons inspectors go in and take people out of Iraq, take some of these scientists out of Iraq, and ask them, you know, interrogate them, hopefully encourage them to defect, bring their families out of Iraq. They won't be -- you know, a promise from Saddam Hussein. But you've interviewed some of these scientists in the past. I mean, how helpful are the defectors? How helpful are those that have been part of these programs?
DAVID ALBRIGHT, FORMER WEAPONS INSPECTOR: These people can be extremely helpful. And in fact, interviewing of Iraqis is a critical part of the process. And if you can get to them alone, you can learn more, you can see if they're lying. It's very hard to hold a lie together if you can interview five people independently.
Also, if an Iraqi tells you something in an interview where there's no minders, you really have a responsibility if you're going to use that information to protect that Iraqi, which means getting that person and their immediate family out of Iraq.
So I think the focusing on the individuals in Iraq does require this idea, or to implement this process of being able to take them out. It also may be that an Iraqi comes forward to the inspectors who's credible, who has, in a sense, the smoking gun. And you certainly want to make sure you can get that person out.
KARL: But we've seen Hans Blix has been reluctant? Right? I mean, you know, they're not in the business of kind of a witness protection program, or aiding defection? I mean, is that a problem?
CLARK: Well, it's a problem right now, but at some point he's going to want to take the trouble to meet some of these people. As this goes on, really the only reliable way to get information is for people who know it to come forward. And to come forward, you've got to first know they've got the information. Then they've got to be assured of protection for themselves, their families, their in-laws. It could be a big operation here.
ALBRIGHT: Can I add, quickly, don't think of it as a defector program, think of it as a whistle-blower program. Iraq's violating international law, and you want to create a system where whistle- blowers can come out, reveal those violations and be protected.
CLARK: Exactly. KARL: Well, an interesting process. Now, we've seen some news, Joe, over the last several months, the U.S. has claimed they have intelligence that Iraq's been trying to buy these specialized -- first of all, enriched uranium, but also specialized aluminum tubes, vacuum tubes. What do we know? Are we going to be seeing -- I mean, I imagine one of the things we're going to be looking for is what have they been trying to get and for what purposes?
CIRINCIONE: We know publicly very little. And hopefully in this declaration there is some at least explanation of this. Part of what you'd expect Iraq to do is to find innocent explanations for some of this suspicious activity. Now is the time, in the next couple of weeks, for the U.S. to come forth, at least to some of the inspectors, with some of the classified intelligence information we believe we have that pinpoints Iraqi holdings or activities that the inspectors need to know about in order to do their job.
KARL: Why has the U.S. been so reluctant to do that?
CIRINCIONE: Well, in part they're playing a little game of gotcha. They wanted to see what Saddam would come up with, and holding back information hoping that they could spook Saddam into declaring as much as possible. Part of it is they are a little worried about leaks, that Iraq might have penetrated the inspections process itself, and they might, then, find out information that the U.S. knows and move those materials, or move all the materials,.making the U.S. job of finding or eliminating those materials much harder.
KARL: Amy.
SMITHSON: This is going to be terribly difficult to sort out. Even in the previous round of inspections, you saw the Iraqis, the cover story on top of cover story on top of cover story. And now they've had several years to watch what people like us have been saying about what they should have done the last time around, and what would be a credible declaration and the like.
So it would be very interesting to see what they do come up with in this 1,000-plus pages worth of material. The inspectors are going to be looking for, what happened to the equipment that they had already identified last time as being key to chemical and biological weapons proliferation? Where were the individuals that they had already identified as being part of these programs? And they're going to have an awful lot to unravel.
KARL: Well, a lot to unravel as we begin to look for these documents and get them in our hands, hopefully by the beginning of the week. Thank you all for joining us. And Kyra, back to you.
PHILLIPS: All right. Jonathan Karl, thanks so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Cirincione>
Aired December 7, 2002 - 15:18 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: U.N. weapons inspectors in Baghdad now have Iraq's written declaration on weapons of mass destruction a day ahead of deadline. Apparently, the document declares that Iraq has no such weapons and the White House isn't buying that. So what happens next? CNN's Jonathan Karl is at our documents desk in D.C. Hi, Jon.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kyra. Well, while we wait for those documents to come in, we have some of the nation's leading experts on chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. I'm here with Joe Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, an expert on nuclear proliferation, also with Amy Smithson of the Henry Stimson Center, who is an expert on chemical and biological weapons, also here with David Albright, who is a former U.N. weapons inspector himself, and of course CNN analyst, former NATO supreme commander, General Wesley Clark.
Joe, if I can start with you. One of the concerns that's been raised, is that when we finally see this documentation, that it could include something of a road map for terrorists who want to develop their own weapons of mass destruction. How big of a concern is that? What needs to be done about that?
JOE CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: Well, Hans Blix feels it's enough of a concern to hold the documents for at least a day or two so he can see them first and scrub out or excerpt any information, for example, formulas that might be given, critical imports that might have been imported, or, as someone suggested, the names of companies that Iraq bought some of this material from.
So you could unintentionally release sensitive material that could help someone else construct the very weapons we're hoping to...
KARL: In fact, some of this may simply be embarrassing, right, Amy? I mean, these companies in the past, we've seen previous reports, the names of major Western companies that have helped inadvertently, or not inadvertently, develop these weapons?
AMY SMITHSON, HENRY STIMSON CENTER: That could be the case again this time. One would hope that they would have learned their lesson last time around and would have stopped cooperating with countries that are intent on proliferating these weapons.
And also, keep in mind, that throughout this time there's been a group called the Australia Group, which screens requests from different countries for these types of dual-use products. KARL: You're familiar with this process.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I am. One of the things I do in civilian life now is I help companies with compliance. You have to get a grip on what you're doing if you're the company. If you have technology or materials that could be used for some of these programs, you have to know what the risk is and you have to know what your employees are doing, know who your customers are, and you have to really keep up with changing events.
KARL: Now, David, you've been one of the inspectors, one of the interesting issues that's been raised here is the administration wants to see the U.N. weapons inspectors go in and take people out of Iraq, take some of these scientists out of Iraq, and ask them, you know, interrogate them, hopefully encourage them to defect, bring their families out of Iraq. They won't be -- you know, a promise from Saddam Hussein. But you've interviewed some of these scientists in the past. I mean, how helpful are the defectors? How helpful are those that have been part of these programs?
DAVID ALBRIGHT, FORMER WEAPONS INSPECTOR: These people can be extremely helpful. And in fact, interviewing of Iraqis is a critical part of the process. And if you can get to them alone, you can learn more, you can see if they're lying. It's very hard to hold a lie together if you can interview five people independently.
Also, if an Iraqi tells you something in an interview where there's no minders, you really have a responsibility if you're going to use that information to protect that Iraqi, which means getting that person and their immediate family out of Iraq.
So I think the focusing on the individuals in Iraq does require this idea, or to implement this process of being able to take them out. It also may be that an Iraqi comes forward to the inspectors who's credible, who has, in a sense, the smoking gun. And you certainly want to make sure you can get that person out.
KARL: But we've seen Hans Blix has been reluctant? Right? I mean, you know, they're not in the business of kind of a witness protection program, or aiding defection? I mean, is that a problem?
CLARK: Well, it's a problem right now, but at some point he's going to want to take the trouble to meet some of these people. As this goes on, really the only reliable way to get information is for people who know it to come forward. And to come forward, you've got to first know they've got the information. Then they've got to be assured of protection for themselves, their families, their in-laws. It could be a big operation here.
ALBRIGHT: Can I add, quickly, don't think of it as a defector program, think of it as a whistle-blower program. Iraq's violating international law, and you want to create a system where whistle- blowers can come out, reveal those violations and be protected.
CLARK: Exactly. KARL: Well, an interesting process. Now, we've seen some news, Joe, over the last several months, the U.S. has claimed they have intelligence that Iraq's been trying to buy these specialized -- first of all, enriched uranium, but also specialized aluminum tubes, vacuum tubes. What do we know? Are we going to be seeing -- I mean, I imagine one of the things we're going to be looking for is what have they been trying to get and for what purposes?
CIRINCIONE: We know publicly very little. And hopefully in this declaration there is some at least explanation of this. Part of what you'd expect Iraq to do is to find innocent explanations for some of this suspicious activity. Now is the time, in the next couple of weeks, for the U.S. to come forth, at least to some of the inspectors, with some of the classified intelligence information we believe we have that pinpoints Iraqi holdings or activities that the inspectors need to know about in order to do their job.
KARL: Why has the U.S. been so reluctant to do that?
CIRINCIONE: Well, in part they're playing a little game of gotcha. They wanted to see what Saddam would come up with, and holding back information hoping that they could spook Saddam into declaring as much as possible. Part of it is they are a little worried about leaks, that Iraq might have penetrated the inspections process itself, and they might, then, find out information that the U.S. knows and move those materials, or move all the materials,.making the U.S. job of finding or eliminating those materials much harder.
KARL: Amy.
SMITHSON: This is going to be terribly difficult to sort out. Even in the previous round of inspections, you saw the Iraqis, the cover story on top of cover story on top of cover story. And now they've had several years to watch what people like us have been saying about what they should have done the last time around, and what would be a credible declaration and the like.
So it would be very interesting to see what they do come up with in this 1,000-plus pages worth of material. The inspectors are going to be looking for, what happened to the equipment that they had already identified last time as being key to chemical and biological weapons proliferation? Where were the individuals that they had already identified as being part of these programs? And they're going to have an awful lot to unravel.
KARL: Well, a lot to unravel as we begin to look for these documents and get them in our hands, hopefully by the beginning of the week. Thank you all for joining us. And Kyra, back to you.
PHILLIPS: All right. Jonathan Karl, thanks so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Cirincione>
