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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With Joseph Wilson

Aired December 07, 2002 - 16:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now with special insight on developments in Iraq today, former deputy U.N. ambassador to Iraq, Joseph Wilson, he was the last American official to meet with Saddam Hussein before the start of the Gulf War.
Good to see you, sir.

JOSEPH WILSON, FMR. DEP. U.S. AMB. TO IRAQ: Kyra, how are you? I was glad to see you showed me shaking hands with Saddam. Just to show that on the night that LIVE FROM BAGHDAD is premiering Bernie Shaw wasn't the only one to meet with that son of a gun.

PHILLIPS: And you're being very nice, son of a gun. Tell us how you really feel about Saddam Hussein -- actually -- we'll get to that in a minute.

But your reaction first to the newest bit of information, and that is this apology from Saddam Hussein to the Kuwaitis. What do you make of this?

WILSON: Well, I heard just snippets of the translation but I was struck by three things. One, the apology, of course, and that probably is why Saddam did not read the letter himself. Apologies are not things he's good at doing. Two, was the attempt to split off the Kuwaiti people from their rulers. And then, three, and perhaps most importantly, was the revisionist view of the history of his invasion of Kuwait, which doesn't square at all with his explanation to me when I saw him four days after the invasion.

All and all, I think that what he's trying to do is, trying to appeal to Arab solidarity in the face of its having given over his full and final and complete documents. And really strongly saying that, I have now given it to them. Can they take yes for an answer? And if, of course, they being us can't take yes for an answer, then he can portray himself as the victim of a Western aggression against him.

PHILLIPS: You really think people would see him as a victim?

WILSON: Well, whether they see him as a victim or not, that's the way he's trying to portray himself. Clearly, during the Gulf War, there was a lot of resonance in this absurd contention that he was invading Kuwait to liberate Palestine. So, there's no accounting for what people are willing to believe.

PHILLIPS: All right, you've met with Saddam Hussein many a times, do you think Iraq has really mad a true effort here to include everything in this declaration? Or is this just a cat and mouse game?

WILSON: I don't think it's a cat and mouse game. But the short answer is, I doubt that it's complete. I certainly think is behooves us not to assume it's complete. This is really the starting point for further more onerous inspections going forward.

I might add on that, inspections are a good thing. The alternative being a military action that the president himself has said it's his last, rather than his first option.

PHILLIPS: What was Saddam's tone before the Gulf War when you met with him? And how do you think it's different now?

WILSON: Well, I met with him four days after his invasion. So, on the one hand it was really very bellicose. He gave me the reasons why he had invaded Kuwait. And they were essentially because of Kuwaiti actions that were not of his liking. And as he said that he was basically going to keep and decide the fate of Kuwait.

He also said he did not believe that the United States could withstand spilling the blood of 10,000 Americans in the sands of the Arabian Desert and, therefore, would be unable to summon the political will to reverse the invasion of Kuwait. Now, it's clear to me that this sort of charm offensive and this openness is designed to make him the victim rather than the aggressor in this latest round of efforts to implement U.N. Security Council resolutions.

PHILLIPS: Going back to that time when you did meet him, you shook his hand, you sat there with him, you talked with him. What was your sense? I guess, I'll put the question bluntly, did you think he was crazy?

WILSON: I don't think I would describe him as crazy. I would say he has unrealistic ambitions, certainly viewed from sort of latter-day 20th century geopolitics. But he can draw the line from B to Z very rationally. He can tell you why he went there and what his objectives are. The problem, his objectives were always unrealistic.

Although, that said, I am increasingly of the conclusion that the invasion itself of Kuwait was a high-risk but rational gamble from his perspective, given his rather narrow view of the world.

PHILLIPS: What do you think he's doing right now?

WILSON: Well, I think he's still attempting to figure out how he can drive a wedge between the hard-liners, the United States and United Kingdom and some of the others on the council who may have less appetite for military action. And I think he's first and foremost in his mind is how do I survive this?, one. And, two, having survived this, how do I keep as many weapons under my belt or hidden in my basements? And how much technology can I keep from these guys so that I can rebuild once the political will has ebbed again?

PHILLIPS: Former deputy ambassador to Iraq, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, thank you so much for your time.

WILSON: My pleasure, Kyra. Nice to be with you.

PHILLIPS: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 7, 2002 - 16:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now with special insight on developments in Iraq today, former deputy U.N. ambassador to Iraq, Joseph Wilson, he was the last American official to meet with Saddam Hussein before the start of the Gulf War.
Good to see you, sir.

JOSEPH WILSON, FMR. DEP. U.S. AMB. TO IRAQ: Kyra, how are you? I was glad to see you showed me shaking hands with Saddam. Just to show that on the night that LIVE FROM BAGHDAD is premiering Bernie Shaw wasn't the only one to meet with that son of a gun.

PHILLIPS: And you're being very nice, son of a gun. Tell us how you really feel about Saddam Hussein -- actually -- we'll get to that in a minute.

But your reaction first to the newest bit of information, and that is this apology from Saddam Hussein to the Kuwaitis. What do you make of this?

WILSON: Well, I heard just snippets of the translation but I was struck by three things. One, the apology, of course, and that probably is why Saddam did not read the letter himself. Apologies are not things he's good at doing. Two, was the attempt to split off the Kuwaiti people from their rulers. And then, three, and perhaps most importantly, was the revisionist view of the history of his invasion of Kuwait, which doesn't square at all with his explanation to me when I saw him four days after the invasion.

All and all, I think that what he's trying to do is, trying to appeal to Arab solidarity in the face of its having given over his full and final and complete documents. And really strongly saying that, I have now given it to them. Can they take yes for an answer? And if, of course, they being us can't take yes for an answer, then he can portray himself as the victim of a Western aggression against him.

PHILLIPS: You really think people would see him as a victim?

WILSON: Well, whether they see him as a victim or not, that's the way he's trying to portray himself. Clearly, during the Gulf War, there was a lot of resonance in this absurd contention that he was invading Kuwait to liberate Palestine. So, there's no accounting for what people are willing to believe.

PHILLIPS: All right, you've met with Saddam Hussein many a times, do you think Iraq has really mad a true effort here to include everything in this declaration? Or is this just a cat and mouse game?

WILSON: I don't think it's a cat and mouse game. But the short answer is, I doubt that it's complete. I certainly think is behooves us not to assume it's complete. This is really the starting point for further more onerous inspections going forward.

I might add on that, inspections are a good thing. The alternative being a military action that the president himself has said it's his last, rather than his first option.

PHILLIPS: What was Saddam's tone before the Gulf War when you met with him? And how do you think it's different now?

WILSON: Well, I met with him four days after his invasion. So, on the one hand it was really very bellicose. He gave me the reasons why he had invaded Kuwait. And they were essentially because of Kuwaiti actions that were not of his liking. And as he said that he was basically going to keep and decide the fate of Kuwait.

He also said he did not believe that the United States could withstand spilling the blood of 10,000 Americans in the sands of the Arabian Desert and, therefore, would be unable to summon the political will to reverse the invasion of Kuwait. Now, it's clear to me that this sort of charm offensive and this openness is designed to make him the victim rather than the aggressor in this latest round of efforts to implement U.N. Security Council resolutions.

PHILLIPS: Going back to that time when you did meet him, you shook his hand, you sat there with him, you talked with him. What was your sense? I guess, I'll put the question bluntly, did you think he was crazy?

WILSON: I don't think I would describe him as crazy. I would say he has unrealistic ambitions, certainly viewed from sort of latter-day 20th century geopolitics. But he can draw the line from B to Z very rationally. He can tell you why he went there and what his objectives are. The problem, his objectives were always unrealistic.

Although, that said, I am increasingly of the conclusion that the invasion itself of Kuwait was a high-risk but rational gamble from his perspective, given his rather narrow view of the world.

PHILLIPS: What do you think he's doing right now?

WILSON: Well, I think he's still attempting to figure out how he can drive a wedge between the hard-liners, the United States and United Kingdom and some of the others on the council who may have less appetite for military action. And I think he's first and foremost in his mind is how do I survive this?, one. And, two, having survived this, how do I keep as many weapons under my belt or hidden in my basements? And how much technology can I keep from these guys so that I can rebuild once the political will has ebbed again?

PHILLIPS: Former deputy ambassador to Iraq, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, thank you so much for your time.

WILSON: My pleasure, Kyra. Nice to be with you.

PHILLIPS: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com