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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With Bill Richardson

Aired January 11, 2003 - 14:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: There are new signs that diplomacy and dialogue may help cool the tense standoff surrounding North Korea's nuclear program. Former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. and current New Mexico governor, Bill Richardson, has just wrapped up three days of talks with North Korean envoys on the hopeful note. CNN's Bob Franken is in Santa Fe now with more on that. Hi, Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Heidi. And the North Korean diplomats are back on their way to New York to report to their government. Democratic governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson, meanwhile, is in the process of reporting to his government. He is not part of the administration but he is having continuous conversations -- continuing conversations with Secretary of State Colin Powell, something that he did during the entire three days of an interview situation that can be only described as bizarre. Although, Richardson, who has dealt with the North Koreans before, said that this is the typical way they do things -- on the one hand being cordial, and the other being belligerent. It's, for them, a mind game.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Governor, here's what confuses so many people. On the one hand we have this picture of cordiality here and the professed interest by the North Koreas to, in fact, talk this out. And at the same time there are all these belligerent actions that seem to be taking place. Why is that?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: When you negotiate with North Korea, this is what happens. On the one hand before negotiations, they're upping the anti with a lot of belligerent initiatives and statements and then you negotiate with them. This is always been the case when I've negotiated with North Korea.

I remembered going to get an American pilot out. I arrived in North Korea and the first thing they told me is I had to pay -- the United States had to pay for the ammunition that knocked a plane down. And so, they're upping the anti just as you're trying to take an action. So this is typical North Korea diplomacy. They're very good at it. They're negative. They up the anti. They've got several tracks going. You just have to know how to deal with it.

FRANKEN: Is that what was going on inside your conversations?

RICHARDSON: Well, inside my conversations, I've known Ambassador Han a long time. They were cordial. They were good. The atmosphere was good. We were very frank. We covered almost every issue, but at one point I said, "You know, Han, it doesn't help when we try to talk things and make things a little better that you're withdrawing from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty today. You know it doesn't give good vibrations." And he says, "Well, I understand." But we kept talking. But they were a little tense sometimes.

They're very dogmatic the North Koreans. They're very programmed. They have their policy statement. They don't want to diverge from them. They're very doctrinaire. They don't negotiate like others, quid pro quos. They have their standards and you have to just work about that. It's almost an art form to talk to them.

FRANKEN: But let's be specific. You brought it up obviously, the withdrawal, as you said, from the Nonproliferation Treaty. You brought up, you told us, their missile testing et cetera. You brought up all the issues that were on the table. Would they snap back at you? What was their response?

RICHARDSON: Well, their response basically was on the other hand; we're ready to talk about these issues. Secondly, they say, we're ready also not to build any nuclear weapons. We're ready to discuss your verification concerns that you have ever our nonproliferation activities. We're ready to freeze the nuclear plants in North Korea, but we need to talk.

So this is not like United Nations or formal diplomacy. This is almost negotiating in a bizarre atmosphere, in a totally different environment. This is why it's difficult to deal with North Korea.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Now at the same time that Richardson was talking with the North Koreans, he was getting constant phone calls from the secretary of state. While we were doing the exclusive interview that is appearing on CNN now with Governor Richardson, he said there were three phone messages from the secretary of state, that there had been what amounted to instructions. Throughout the talks, Richardson would be reporting back to him in detail. What he hoped he would get out of this, said Governor Richardson, was that the United States would engage in direct talks, administration to administration, with the North Koreans --Heidi.

COLLINS: Bob, why was the White House so anxious for Governor Richardson to get involved in this? I assume they are, you know, positive on his history with these countries, right?

FRANKEN: Well, actually within the White House, there were some people who were putting him down a little bit saying no, no, he was part of an adversarial administration, meaning the Clinton administration. But diplomatically, the White House could have it both ways.

On the one hand, having the government's point-of-view represented by somebody who is professional at this, who could in fact follow instructions to make sure the North Koreans knew exactly what the Bush administration was feeling without the Bush administration at this point getting involved in the direct talks, which so far, are not exactly what they want to do. So they were able to have it both ways. Governor Richardson's recommendation, as I mentioned, is that there are direct talks -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Bob Franken live from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Thank you, Bob.

And CNN's exclusive coverage of the face-off with North Korea continues now with a look within the Bush administration, where officials are responding to today's development. CNN's Dana Bash is in Washington now.

Hi, Dana.

DANA BASH, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi Heidi. Well, as Bob was alluding to, the Secretary of State Colin Powell was in close touch and has been in close touch with Bill Richardson as these talks have gone on over the past three days. And we have a statement from the administration about what they feel went on with these talks and I'll quote here -- "The U.S. has made it clear that we are prepared to talk to North Korea about how it would meet its obligations to the international committee."

In New Mexico, North Korea stated its willingness to have dialogue. Unfortunately, North Korean delegates did not address the concern to the international committee. While delegates were in New Mexico, North Korea continued to take steps in the wrong direction, especially with their withdrawal from the NPT and to threaten further steps such as missile testing. That would raise tensions with the international community.

Now, another administration official tells us that they are convinced that North Korea will continue on its path to what they call brinkmanship, to bring about dialogue. But if you notice with this statement, the U.S. is still putting the onerous on North Korea, saying if they want to start talks, it's their obligation to freeze its nuclear program in order to bring the U.S. to the table --Heidi.

COLLINS: All right, Dana Bash, thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com








Aired January 11, 2003 - 14:31   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: There are new signs that diplomacy and dialogue may help cool the tense standoff surrounding North Korea's nuclear program. Former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. and current New Mexico governor, Bill Richardson, has just wrapped up three days of talks with North Korean envoys on the hopeful note. CNN's Bob Franken is in Santa Fe now with more on that. Hi, Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Heidi. And the North Korean diplomats are back on their way to New York to report to their government. Democratic governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson, meanwhile, is in the process of reporting to his government. He is not part of the administration but he is having continuous conversations -- continuing conversations with Secretary of State Colin Powell, something that he did during the entire three days of an interview situation that can be only described as bizarre. Although, Richardson, who has dealt with the North Koreans before, said that this is the typical way they do things -- on the one hand being cordial, and the other being belligerent. It's, for them, a mind game.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Governor, here's what confuses so many people. On the one hand we have this picture of cordiality here and the professed interest by the North Koreas to, in fact, talk this out. And at the same time there are all these belligerent actions that seem to be taking place. Why is that?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: When you negotiate with North Korea, this is what happens. On the one hand before negotiations, they're upping the anti with a lot of belligerent initiatives and statements and then you negotiate with them. This is always been the case when I've negotiated with North Korea.

I remembered going to get an American pilot out. I arrived in North Korea and the first thing they told me is I had to pay -- the United States had to pay for the ammunition that knocked a plane down. And so, they're upping the anti just as you're trying to take an action. So this is typical North Korea diplomacy. They're very good at it. They're negative. They up the anti. They've got several tracks going. You just have to know how to deal with it.

FRANKEN: Is that what was going on inside your conversations?

RICHARDSON: Well, inside my conversations, I've known Ambassador Han a long time. They were cordial. They were good. The atmosphere was good. We were very frank. We covered almost every issue, but at one point I said, "You know, Han, it doesn't help when we try to talk things and make things a little better that you're withdrawing from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty today. You know it doesn't give good vibrations." And he says, "Well, I understand." But we kept talking. But they were a little tense sometimes.

They're very dogmatic the North Koreans. They're very programmed. They have their policy statement. They don't want to diverge from them. They're very doctrinaire. They don't negotiate like others, quid pro quos. They have their standards and you have to just work about that. It's almost an art form to talk to them.

FRANKEN: But let's be specific. You brought it up obviously, the withdrawal, as you said, from the Nonproliferation Treaty. You brought up, you told us, their missile testing et cetera. You brought up all the issues that were on the table. Would they snap back at you? What was their response?

RICHARDSON: Well, their response basically was on the other hand; we're ready to talk about these issues. Secondly, they say, we're ready also not to build any nuclear weapons. We're ready to discuss your verification concerns that you have ever our nonproliferation activities. We're ready to freeze the nuclear plants in North Korea, but we need to talk.

So this is not like United Nations or formal diplomacy. This is almost negotiating in a bizarre atmosphere, in a totally different environment. This is why it's difficult to deal with North Korea.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Now at the same time that Richardson was talking with the North Koreans, he was getting constant phone calls from the secretary of state. While we were doing the exclusive interview that is appearing on CNN now with Governor Richardson, he said there were three phone messages from the secretary of state, that there had been what amounted to instructions. Throughout the talks, Richardson would be reporting back to him in detail. What he hoped he would get out of this, said Governor Richardson, was that the United States would engage in direct talks, administration to administration, with the North Koreans --Heidi.

COLLINS: Bob, why was the White House so anxious for Governor Richardson to get involved in this? I assume they are, you know, positive on his history with these countries, right?

FRANKEN: Well, actually within the White House, there were some people who were putting him down a little bit saying no, no, he was part of an adversarial administration, meaning the Clinton administration. But diplomatically, the White House could have it both ways.

On the one hand, having the government's point-of-view represented by somebody who is professional at this, who could in fact follow instructions to make sure the North Koreans knew exactly what the Bush administration was feeling without the Bush administration at this point getting involved in the direct talks, which so far, are not exactly what they want to do. So they were able to have it both ways. Governor Richardson's recommendation, as I mentioned, is that there are direct talks -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Bob Franken live from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Thank you, Bob.

And CNN's exclusive coverage of the face-off with North Korea continues now with a look within the Bush administration, where officials are responding to today's development. CNN's Dana Bash is in Washington now.

Hi, Dana.

DANA BASH, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi Heidi. Well, as Bob was alluding to, the Secretary of State Colin Powell was in close touch and has been in close touch with Bill Richardson as these talks have gone on over the past three days. And we have a statement from the administration about what they feel went on with these talks and I'll quote here -- "The U.S. has made it clear that we are prepared to talk to North Korea about how it would meet its obligations to the international committee."

In New Mexico, North Korea stated its willingness to have dialogue. Unfortunately, North Korean delegates did not address the concern to the international committee. While delegates were in New Mexico, North Korea continued to take steps in the wrong direction, especially with their withdrawal from the NPT and to threaten further steps such as missile testing. That would raise tensions with the international community.

Now, another administration official tells us that they are convinced that North Korea will continue on its path to what they call brinkmanship, to bring about dialogue. But if you notice with this statement, the U.S. is still putting the onerous on North Korea, saying if they want to start talks, it's their obligation to freeze its nuclear program in order to bring the U.S. to the table --Heidi.

COLLINS: All right, Dana Bash, thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com