Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Saturday
Interviews With Pak Gil Yon, Bill Richardson
Aired January 11, 2003 - 16:07 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: New Mexico Governor Richardson wrapped up nine hours of talks over three days with a North Korean delegation this morning. Richardson says the decisions were -- or the discussions, rather, were positive. He received assurances that North Korea has no plans to build nuclear weapons. The talks come on the heels of Pyongyang's decision to reactivate a frozen nuclear reactor. Richardson is hopeful the Bush administration and North Korea will engage in conversations soon saying the ball is in both courts.
What these discussions may mean to the looming standoff between North Korea and the rest of the world is unclear. We have crews covering the talks from two fronts. CNN national correspondent Bob Franken is in New Mexico and senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth is at the U.N.
And world leaders are heaping condemnation on North Korea's decision to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty -- treaty rather. The move underscores how quickly this situation is accelerating. Is there any way to put the brakes on North Korea's nuclear aspirations?
For more on that we go to CNN's Richard Roth, who has been in exclusive talks with North Korea's ambassador. Hi Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Hello Fredricka. North Korea's ambassador to the United Nations, Pak Gil Yon sat down with me for an exclusive interview today. The North Korean government, very reclusive, very isolated does not talk often in formal sit-down interviews with journalists.
Yesterday at the United Nations the North Korean representative denounced the United States for intimidating and manipulating the International Atomic Energy Agency and thus, its decision to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Again, today the ambassador echoed those remarks, but he also said and indicated that his government would not abide by a moratorium on missile testing.
In 1998, North Korea launched a missile over Japan into the Pacific Ocean. The ambassador says because of U.S. actions and violation of an agreement it had with Washington, it feels no responsibility to adhere to that agreement on missile testing. As for the rest of the crisis, the ambassador looked back and looked ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAK GIL YON, NORTH KOREAN AMB. TO U.N.: Well I'd like to tell you something about the relationship between the DPRK and the United States, in particular on the current situation with respect to the nuclear issues. And as you may remember, very clearly on 25th of October last year my government proposed to have conclusion of non- aggression treaty between the DPRK and the United States to solve the current issues of the common concern. And since then, we followed the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) development in the United States.
And one of the latest developments in the United States was the issue (UNINTELLIGIBLE) statement by the electoral coordination and group of United States, Japan and South Korea. We pay attention of such a joint statement immediately at the assurance of that statement on the 7th of this month. Unfortunately, we found in that statement nothing new elements was contained. We found that in that statement although the United States delegation explained that they are going to have a talk with the DPRK, but will not negotiate with the DPRK.
This shows us that in substance, they maintain their previous positions, that is to abandonment of the nuclear programs by the DPRK first, then negotiation will be possible. We found that when it was so conditional, so harsh to accept, and, anyway, we were still waiting any positive response from the State Department, even until -- I mean, even the late evening of the 7th. And, meanwhile, we were told from our people from the other country that their suggestion from the State Department to continue through dialogue or negotiations through the newer channel, which has been existing so far.
And we were awaiting any response from the State Department, but nothing heard from them. We asked directly to the person concern of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or Korean division of the State Department whether there is any indication or any suggestion or any plan on the part of the United States to have a negotiation with the DPRK. The person in charge of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) division or Korean desk said very sharply and very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we have nothing. We have no plan to do such negotiation with the DPRK.
This shows me that although (UNINTELLIGIBLE) talking about dialogue or talk with the DPRK, in word, but in real term they are still seeking the solution of the problems in other way, rather than a dialogue or negotiations. That means they still unilaterally (UNINTELLIGIBLE) DPRK to abandon such programs, what they are talking (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So we are now we have a very clear understanding of the positions of the United States, but anyway, as I've told you, we tried our best until the final moment of the statement of my government, which was issue yesterday for the solution of the current pending issues between DPRK and the United States. So this is what I would like to tell you at this moment.
ROTH: So there's no hope for any dialogue? Both sides don't seem to have trust in each other, but you've talked before, and things have worked out.
PAK: And as we consistently maintain, problems should be resolved through the negotiations by peaceful means directly by the -- directly parties concerned of the issue. That is the DPRK and the United States.
ROTH: But why...
PAK: We still believe that the solution will be made through such negotiations, if the United States has a sincere attitude of such negotiations. But if the United States continues to request or to demand its unilateral request to the DPRK that you do this or that, then we will sit with you. This is very, very not sincere attitude of the United States.
ROTH: But can you understand why some in Washington don't have the trust in your government regarding any kind of dialogue because they say that your country broke the framework agreement by restarting a nuclear program.
PAK: I think this is the problem -- to understand the real truth of the problems. We know very clearly we told to the world that it is none other than the United States who violated their bilateral commitment and as well as international commitments by the United States themselves. For instance, 1993 June joint statement of the DPRK and the United States was also violated by the United States first, because the United States administration put the DPRK at such a list of the, what they call the axis of evil, and as well as the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) declared that they have a nuclear preemptive strike against the DPRK.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: The North Korean ambassador went on to say that the start- up of nuclear reactors in his country would not lead to building of nuclear bombs. And he said that anything we process would go towards peaceful purposes, such as electricity for the country -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Richard, while Pak is saying that in reflecting on the past of not being able to open dialogue with the U.S., it almost sounds as though there is still that mistrust, and perhaps there may have to be another faction that would have to step in. If not the U.S., then who?
ROTH: Well North Korea feels that it doesn't get any sympathy or publicity for the fact that the United States was slow in living up to its side of the framework agreement in the supply of oil and the building of two light water reactors. In terms of other people who could step in, well it may end up being the Security Council, if the International Atomic Energy Agency throws it towards the 15-nation Council.
If so, North Korea says that would be tantamount if the Council issued sanctions to a declaration of war. North Korea, though, could be unpredictable. Seeking out Bill Richardson is one avenue, so the State Department, of course, would have to be ready for anything, and they have been when it comes to North Korea. But there are very few cards left for the North to play. I asked the ambassador what's next? You've expelled ambassadors -- inspectors I mean.
You've taken the seals off. You've threatened missile launches. You've withdrawn from the NPT Treaty. He declined to say what else they might play, but they want a firm dialogue and a non-aggression treaty with the United States, though he says he denies trying to drive a wedge between South Korea and the U.S.
WHITFIELD: And Richard, did the ambassador say that their most recent actions are directly precipitated by the Bush administration labeling it as a member of the axis of evil?
ROTH: Yes, I think he mentioned in that clip, he stated the axis of evil comment, ugly words, he says. He did not want to comment when I said what does President Kim Jong Il think of President Bush because President Bush was quoted as saying he loathes the North Korean leader. He said that North Korea still is interested in peace and he was not really going to go -- comment on that description.
But it really, for Pyongyang, they want it to be a one-on-one relationship. They'd like the United States to verify that they don't have nuclear weapons bypassing international agreements, arenas, South Korea. That's where things stand now, but so far the U.S. is not willing to engage the way the North Koreans want.
WHITFIELD: All right, Richard Roth, thank you very much.
Well there is more going on involving North Korea. We'll have an exclusive interview with New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson on his talks with representatives from North Korea. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: A former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and three days of talks with the North Korean delegation, Bill Richardson, now the governor of New Mexico, says he thinks the tension over North Korea's nuclear program can be peacefully resolved.
National correspondent Bob Franken joins us live from Santa Fe -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, why you would possibly ask would the Democratic governor from New Mexico be conducting these talks? The administration turned to the governor after the North Koreans expressed an interest in talking with him. They've had long experience with Governor Richardson. He has done some sensitive negotiations over the years in North Korea as a troubleshooter, and he was the United States ambassador in the Clinton administration.
Meanwhile, the Bush administration could make the credible claim that it was not participating in direct talks with Governor Richardson. With his long experience then, Richardson's in a position where he might offer an explanation to the confusing double policy that seems to be coming from North Korea. On the one hand, the cordial conversations that everything says were occurring here. On the other, the belligerent actions that were being taken by North Korea at the same time. Richardson had some explanations for this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: When you negotiate with North Korea, this is what happens. On the one hand, before a negotiation, they're upping the ante with a lot of belligerent initiatives and statements, and then you negotiate with them. This has always been the case when I've negotiated with North Korea.
I remember going to get an American pilot out. I arrived in North Korea, the first thing they told me is, I had to pay -- the United States had to pay for the ammunition that knocked a plane down. And so they're upping the ante just as you're trying to take an action. So this is typical North Korea diplomacy.
They're very good at it. They're negative. They up the ante. They've got several tracks going. You just have to know how to deal with it.
FRANKEN: Is that what was going on inside your conversations?
RICHARDSON: Well inside my conversations, I've known Ambassador Han a long time. They were cordial. They were good. The atmosphere was good. We were very frank. We covered almost every issue. But at one point I said, you know Han, it doesn't help when we're trying to talk things and make things a little better that you're withdrawing from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty today.
You know it doesn't give good vibrations, and he said, well I understand, but we kept talking, but they were a little tense sometimes. They're very dogmatic, the North Koreans. They're very programmed. They have their policy statement. They don't want to diverge from them. They're very doctrinaire. They don't negotiate like others, quid pro quos. They have their standards and you have to just work around that. It's almost an art form to talk to them.
FRANKEN: Let's be specific. You brought up, obviously, the withdrawal, as you said, from the Nonproliferation Treaty. You brought up, you told us their missile testing, et cetera. You brought up all the issues that were on the table. Would they snap back at you? What would their response be?
RICHARDSON: Well, their response basically was on the other hand, we're ready to talk about these issues. Secondly, they say, we're ready, also, not to build any nuclear weapons. We're ready to discuss your verification concerns that you have over our nonproliferation activities. We're ready to freeze the nuclear plants in North Korea, but we need to talk. So this is not like United Nations or formal diplomacy. This is almost negotiating in a bizarre atmosphere, in a totally different environment. This is why it's difficult to deal with North Korea.
FRANKEN: But is that what were they doing with you?
RICHARDSON: Well with me, I -- they know how -- I was representing the administration, not as a special envoy, but just conveying the administration's concerns.
FRANKEN: Is that what happened? They're the ones who initiated this?
RICHARDSON: I think the administration deserves credit for allowing these talks to happen, because the North Koreans contacted us, and then I had to get approval from the administration. And the administration said, yes, listen to what they have to say, but be clear that you're not an envoy, and you express our views.
FRANKEN: But at the same time, you were receiving continuous instruction, if I can use that word, from Secretary of State Colin Powell. As a matter of fact, I understand you have about three telephone messages -- call me right away.
RICHARDSON: Well, I have my cell phone, and there are a couple of messages from Secretary Powell there that I'm thinking of keeping for posterity because they're still recorded...
FRANKEN: Can you tell us what they are?
RICHARDSON: Well I mean they're -- one's a very positive statement, this -- and the other one is a little exasperated about the news on some of the actions the North Koreans have been doing. But I think Secretary Powell was totally up front with me. I was up front with him. I'm not making policy.
I did not deviate from policy. He was very clear about what he wanted me to say to them, knowing that this is an official channel. I think the next step, after my talks, is for official channels to open between the administration and North Korea. The time and place has to be negotiated by both sides. I'm -- for now, out of it.
FRANKEN: When you say for now, can you anticipate getting back in to it?
RICHARDSON: Well, I don't believe so. I'm governor of New Mexico. I got enough problems here. But I was asked to help. I was asked to be part of this. I didn't ask for this. And so I willingly did it with very set parameters. I want the situation to ease up. I want the United States to have a good, sound foreign policy, and I believe it does, but at the time, and I support our Korean policy. But if I personally, with my experiences with North Korea can be helpful, that's what I've done.
FRANKEN: What does the United States have to do now?
RICHARDSON: Well the United States, I believe, is on the right path. I think President Bush's policy makes sense. The administration has said that they are ready for opening dialogue, but it's going to be on the administration's terms.
FRANKEN: But did the North Koreans leave the impression that part of -- why they were doing what they were doing was because of the conduct of this administration?
RICHARDSON: I think that there needs to be some trust built, both sides of the administration and the North Koreans. I mean I think it's pretty clear to everybody that there's deep mistrust. But the way you build trust is through talks. I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect relationship. But at least I believe talking to each other is not going to be harmful. FRANKEN: In the little time we have left, do you believe that your three days might have put people on the road to that trust?
RICHARDSON: I believe my three days has helped, eased tensions a little bit. Both sides are clear on their positions. I was not negotiating. I was not advocating any specific position. I followed my instructions, and I guess I'm an interlocutor. I guess they're calling this green chili diplomacy. It was a personal side, too, of showing the North Koreans parts of the country they'd never visited.
So I think it was historic also that they came to Santa Fe, New Mexico outside of Washington and New York and normal diplomacy and saw the country and saw the light of New Mexicans. The reaction here to these talks has been very positive and want peace, and this is why I believe the trip -- the initiative has been a success.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: And Fredricka, we can report that Governor Richardson has, in fact, returned Secretary of State Colin Powell's phone call. He says he'll follow that up with an extended written report -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Bob, we heard the governor say very distinctly that he was asked to do this, asked to be a part of the discussions and that he followed instructions, but did he reveal much about the exact kind of guidance he did get from the secretary of state or perhaps, you know, someone else in the White House camp exactly what to say and how to conduct these discussions?
FRANKEN: Well, there's a diplomatic profession and Governor Richardson has spent a considerable amount of time in that profession. So when Secretary of State Colin Powell, also the diplomat professional, would talk to Richardson, they could talk as professionals. So, the secretary of state would call Richardson or vice versa and say, this is what you can say, this is what you cannot say. These are the parameters and that's what Richardson would carry back.
In that way, he really did represent the United States government. But, since he was not in the administration itself, the administration could credibly claim in this little dance that goes on that he was not, in fact, involved in official direct negotiations, bargaining discussions with the North Koreans. That becomes a bargaining chip itself. The administration used Governor Richardson, in effect to use his word, as an interlocutor, somebody who could in fact, perhaps bring the parties together, to begin something more official.
WHITFIELD: And Bob quickly, any indication from the governor, first this meeting he had with North Korea, next perhaps North Korean diplomats will be meeting directly with Secretary of State Powell.
FRANKEN: Well that's what he is advocating. The whole drama has to play out. Of course, it has so many facets, but he's saying that ultimately the United States government, the Bush administration will have to engage in direct talks, says Governor Richardson, will have to engage in direct talks with the North Korean government.
WHITFIELD: All right, Bob Franken from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Thank you very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 11, 2003 - 16:07 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: New Mexico Governor Richardson wrapped up nine hours of talks over three days with a North Korean delegation this morning. Richardson says the decisions were -- or the discussions, rather, were positive. He received assurances that North Korea has no plans to build nuclear weapons. The talks come on the heels of Pyongyang's decision to reactivate a frozen nuclear reactor. Richardson is hopeful the Bush administration and North Korea will engage in conversations soon saying the ball is in both courts.
What these discussions may mean to the looming standoff between North Korea and the rest of the world is unclear. We have crews covering the talks from two fronts. CNN national correspondent Bob Franken is in New Mexico and senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth is at the U.N.
And world leaders are heaping condemnation on North Korea's decision to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty -- treaty rather. The move underscores how quickly this situation is accelerating. Is there any way to put the brakes on North Korea's nuclear aspirations?
For more on that we go to CNN's Richard Roth, who has been in exclusive talks with North Korea's ambassador. Hi Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Hello Fredricka. North Korea's ambassador to the United Nations, Pak Gil Yon sat down with me for an exclusive interview today. The North Korean government, very reclusive, very isolated does not talk often in formal sit-down interviews with journalists.
Yesterday at the United Nations the North Korean representative denounced the United States for intimidating and manipulating the International Atomic Energy Agency and thus, its decision to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Again, today the ambassador echoed those remarks, but he also said and indicated that his government would not abide by a moratorium on missile testing.
In 1998, North Korea launched a missile over Japan into the Pacific Ocean. The ambassador says because of U.S. actions and violation of an agreement it had with Washington, it feels no responsibility to adhere to that agreement on missile testing. As for the rest of the crisis, the ambassador looked back and looked ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAK GIL YON, NORTH KOREAN AMB. TO U.N.: Well I'd like to tell you something about the relationship between the DPRK and the United States, in particular on the current situation with respect to the nuclear issues. And as you may remember, very clearly on 25th of October last year my government proposed to have conclusion of non- aggression treaty between the DPRK and the United States to solve the current issues of the common concern. And since then, we followed the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) development in the United States.
And one of the latest developments in the United States was the issue (UNINTELLIGIBLE) statement by the electoral coordination and group of United States, Japan and South Korea. We pay attention of such a joint statement immediately at the assurance of that statement on the 7th of this month. Unfortunately, we found in that statement nothing new elements was contained. We found that in that statement although the United States delegation explained that they are going to have a talk with the DPRK, but will not negotiate with the DPRK.
This shows us that in substance, they maintain their previous positions, that is to abandonment of the nuclear programs by the DPRK first, then negotiation will be possible. We found that when it was so conditional, so harsh to accept, and, anyway, we were still waiting any positive response from the State Department, even until -- I mean, even the late evening of the 7th. And, meanwhile, we were told from our people from the other country that their suggestion from the State Department to continue through dialogue or negotiations through the newer channel, which has been existing so far.
And we were awaiting any response from the State Department, but nothing heard from them. We asked directly to the person concern of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or Korean division of the State Department whether there is any indication or any suggestion or any plan on the part of the United States to have a negotiation with the DPRK. The person in charge of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) division or Korean desk said very sharply and very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we have nothing. We have no plan to do such negotiation with the DPRK.
This shows me that although (UNINTELLIGIBLE) talking about dialogue or talk with the DPRK, in word, but in real term they are still seeking the solution of the problems in other way, rather than a dialogue or negotiations. That means they still unilaterally (UNINTELLIGIBLE) DPRK to abandon such programs, what they are talking (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So we are now we have a very clear understanding of the positions of the United States, but anyway, as I've told you, we tried our best until the final moment of the statement of my government, which was issue yesterday for the solution of the current pending issues between DPRK and the United States. So this is what I would like to tell you at this moment.
ROTH: So there's no hope for any dialogue? Both sides don't seem to have trust in each other, but you've talked before, and things have worked out.
PAK: And as we consistently maintain, problems should be resolved through the negotiations by peaceful means directly by the -- directly parties concerned of the issue. That is the DPRK and the United States.
ROTH: But why...
PAK: We still believe that the solution will be made through such negotiations, if the United States has a sincere attitude of such negotiations. But if the United States continues to request or to demand its unilateral request to the DPRK that you do this or that, then we will sit with you. This is very, very not sincere attitude of the United States.
ROTH: But can you understand why some in Washington don't have the trust in your government regarding any kind of dialogue because they say that your country broke the framework agreement by restarting a nuclear program.
PAK: I think this is the problem -- to understand the real truth of the problems. We know very clearly we told to the world that it is none other than the United States who violated their bilateral commitment and as well as international commitments by the United States themselves. For instance, 1993 June joint statement of the DPRK and the United States was also violated by the United States first, because the United States administration put the DPRK at such a list of the, what they call the axis of evil, and as well as the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) declared that they have a nuclear preemptive strike against the DPRK.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: The North Korean ambassador went on to say that the start- up of nuclear reactors in his country would not lead to building of nuclear bombs. And he said that anything we process would go towards peaceful purposes, such as electricity for the country -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Richard, while Pak is saying that in reflecting on the past of not being able to open dialogue with the U.S., it almost sounds as though there is still that mistrust, and perhaps there may have to be another faction that would have to step in. If not the U.S., then who?
ROTH: Well North Korea feels that it doesn't get any sympathy or publicity for the fact that the United States was slow in living up to its side of the framework agreement in the supply of oil and the building of two light water reactors. In terms of other people who could step in, well it may end up being the Security Council, if the International Atomic Energy Agency throws it towards the 15-nation Council.
If so, North Korea says that would be tantamount if the Council issued sanctions to a declaration of war. North Korea, though, could be unpredictable. Seeking out Bill Richardson is one avenue, so the State Department, of course, would have to be ready for anything, and they have been when it comes to North Korea. But there are very few cards left for the North to play. I asked the ambassador what's next? You've expelled ambassadors -- inspectors I mean.
You've taken the seals off. You've threatened missile launches. You've withdrawn from the NPT Treaty. He declined to say what else they might play, but they want a firm dialogue and a non-aggression treaty with the United States, though he says he denies trying to drive a wedge between South Korea and the U.S.
WHITFIELD: And Richard, did the ambassador say that their most recent actions are directly precipitated by the Bush administration labeling it as a member of the axis of evil?
ROTH: Yes, I think he mentioned in that clip, he stated the axis of evil comment, ugly words, he says. He did not want to comment when I said what does President Kim Jong Il think of President Bush because President Bush was quoted as saying he loathes the North Korean leader. He said that North Korea still is interested in peace and he was not really going to go -- comment on that description.
But it really, for Pyongyang, they want it to be a one-on-one relationship. They'd like the United States to verify that they don't have nuclear weapons bypassing international agreements, arenas, South Korea. That's where things stand now, but so far the U.S. is not willing to engage the way the North Koreans want.
WHITFIELD: All right, Richard Roth, thank you very much.
Well there is more going on involving North Korea. We'll have an exclusive interview with New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson on his talks with representatives from North Korea. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: A former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and three days of talks with the North Korean delegation, Bill Richardson, now the governor of New Mexico, says he thinks the tension over North Korea's nuclear program can be peacefully resolved.
National correspondent Bob Franken joins us live from Santa Fe -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, why you would possibly ask would the Democratic governor from New Mexico be conducting these talks? The administration turned to the governor after the North Koreans expressed an interest in talking with him. They've had long experience with Governor Richardson. He has done some sensitive negotiations over the years in North Korea as a troubleshooter, and he was the United States ambassador in the Clinton administration.
Meanwhile, the Bush administration could make the credible claim that it was not participating in direct talks with Governor Richardson. With his long experience then, Richardson's in a position where he might offer an explanation to the confusing double policy that seems to be coming from North Korea. On the one hand, the cordial conversations that everything says were occurring here. On the other, the belligerent actions that were being taken by North Korea at the same time. Richardson had some explanations for this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: When you negotiate with North Korea, this is what happens. On the one hand, before a negotiation, they're upping the ante with a lot of belligerent initiatives and statements, and then you negotiate with them. This has always been the case when I've negotiated with North Korea.
I remember going to get an American pilot out. I arrived in North Korea, the first thing they told me is, I had to pay -- the United States had to pay for the ammunition that knocked a plane down. And so they're upping the ante just as you're trying to take an action. So this is typical North Korea diplomacy.
They're very good at it. They're negative. They up the ante. They've got several tracks going. You just have to know how to deal with it.
FRANKEN: Is that what was going on inside your conversations?
RICHARDSON: Well inside my conversations, I've known Ambassador Han a long time. They were cordial. They were good. The atmosphere was good. We were very frank. We covered almost every issue. But at one point I said, you know Han, it doesn't help when we're trying to talk things and make things a little better that you're withdrawing from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty today.
You know it doesn't give good vibrations, and he said, well I understand, but we kept talking, but they were a little tense sometimes. They're very dogmatic, the North Koreans. They're very programmed. They have their policy statement. They don't want to diverge from them. They're very doctrinaire. They don't negotiate like others, quid pro quos. They have their standards and you have to just work around that. It's almost an art form to talk to them.
FRANKEN: Let's be specific. You brought up, obviously, the withdrawal, as you said, from the Nonproliferation Treaty. You brought up, you told us their missile testing, et cetera. You brought up all the issues that were on the table. Would they snap back at you? What would their response be?
RICHARDSON: Well, their response basically was on the other hand, we're ready to talk about these issues. Secondly, they say, we're ready, also, not to build any nuclear weapons. We're ready to discuss your verification concerns that you have over our nonproliferation activities. We're ready to freeze the nuclear plants in North Korea, but we need to talk. So this is not like United Nations or formal diplomacy. This is almost negotiating in a bizarre atmosphere, in a totally different environment. This is why it's difficult to deal with North Korea.
FRANKEN: But is that what were they doing with you?
RICHARDSON: Well with me, I -- they know how -- I was representing the administration, not as a special envoy, but just conveying the administration's concerns.
FRANKEN: Is that what happened? They're the ones who initiated this?
RICHARDSON: I think the administration deserves credit for allowing these talks to happen, because the North Koreans contacted us, and then I had to get approval from the administration. And the administration said, yes, listen to what they have to say, but be clear that you're not an envoy, and you express our views.
FRANKEN: But at the same time, you were receiving continuous instruction, if I can use that word, from Secretary of State Colin Powell. As a matter of fact, I understand you have about three telephone messages -- call me right away.
RICHARDSON: Well, I have my cell phone, and there are a couple of messages from Secretary Powell there that I'm thinking of keeping for posterity because they're still recorded...
FRANKEN: Can you tell us what they are?
RICHARDSON: Well I mean they're -- one's a very positive statement, this -- and the other one is a little exasperated about the news on some of the actions the North Koreans have been doing. But I think Secretary Powell was totally up front with me. I was up front with him. I'm not making policy.
I did not deviate from policy. He was very clear about what he wanted me to say to them, knowing that this is an official channel. I think the next step, after my talks, is for official channels to open between the administration and North Korea. The time and place has to be negotiated by both sides. I'm -- for now, out of it.
FRANKEN: When you say for now, can you anticipate getting back in to it?
RICHARDSON: Well, I don't believe so. I'm governor of New Mexico. I got enough problems here. But I was asked to help. I was asked to be part of this. I didn't ask for this. And so I willingly did it with very set parameters. I want the situation to ease up. I want the United States to have a good, sound foreign policy, and I believe it does, but at the time, and I support our Korean policy. But if I personally, with my experiences with North Korea can be helpful, that's what I've done.
FRANKEN: What does the United States have to do now?
RICHARDSON: Well the United States, I believe, is on the right path. I think President Bush's policy makes sense. The administration has said that they are ready for opening dialogue, but it's going to be on the administration's terms.
FRANKEN: But did the North Koreans leave the impression that part of -- why they were doing what they were doing was because of the conduct of this administration?
RICHARDSON: I think that there needs to be some trust built, both sides of the administration and the North Koreans. I mean I think it's pretty clear to everybody that there's deep mistrust. But the way you build trust is through talks. I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect relationship. But at least I believe talking to each other is not going to be harmful. FRANKEN: In the little time we have left, do you believe that your three days might have put people on the road to that trust?
RICHARDSON: I believe my three days has helped, eased tensions a little bit. Both sides are clear on their positions. I was not negotiating. I was not advocating any specific position. I followed my instructions, and I guess I'm an interlocutor. I guess they're calling this green chili diplomacy. It was a personal side, too, of showing the North Koreans parts of the country they'd never visited.
So I think it was historic also that they came to Santa Fe, New Mexico outside of Washington and New York and normal diplomacy and saw the country and saw the light of New Mexicans. The reaction here to these talks has been very positive and want peace, and this is why I believe the trip -- the initiative has been a success.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: And Fredricka, we can report that Governor Richardson has, in fact, returned Secretary of State Colin Powell's phone call. He says he'll follow that up with an extended written report -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Bob, we heard the governor say very distinctly that he was asked to do this, asked to be a part of the discussions and that he followed instructions, but did he reveal much about the exact kind of guidance he did get from the secretary of state or perhaps, you know, someone else in the White House camp exactly what to say and how to conduct these discussions?
FRANKEN: Well, there's a diplomatic profession and Governor Richardson has spent a considerable amount of time in that profession. So when Secretary of State Colin Powell, also the diplomat professional, would talk to Richardson, they could talk as professionals. So, the secretary of state would call Richardson or vice versa and say, this is what you can say, this is what you cannot say. These are the parameters and that's what Richardson would carry back.
In that way, he really did represent the United States government. But, since he was not in the administration itself, the administration could credibly claim in this little dance that goes on that he was not, in fact, involved in official direct negotiations, bargaining discussions with the North Koreans. That becomes a bargaining chip itself. The administration used Governor Richardson, in effect to use his word, as an interlocutor, somebody who could in fact, perhaps bring the parties together, to begin something more official.
WHITFIELD: And Bob quickly, any indication from the governor, first this meeting he had with North Korea, next perhaps North Korean diplomats will be meeting directly with Secretary of State Powell.
FRANKEN: Well that's what he is advocating. The whole drama has to play out. Of course, it has so many facets, but he's saying that ultimately the United States government, the Bush administration will have to engage in direct talks, says Governor Richardson, will have to engage in direct talks with the North Korean government.
WHITFIELD: All right, Bob Franken from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Thank you very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
