Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Saturday
Interview With Jim Walsh
Aired January 11, 2003 - 16:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: On now to continue our discussions about North Korea. Pyongyang says its nuclear program is purely for peaceful purposes. But its decision to pull out of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty raises serious concerns about what could happen next. And joining me now to discuss this, is Dr. Jim Walsh from Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government.
Good to see you.
JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY'S KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Good to see you, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right, how significant is this that North Korea pulls out of this Nonproliferation Treaty?
WALSH: Well, it's important, but before I say anything, I want to say that those last two interviews with the North Korean ambassador and Governor Richardson were unbelievable. They were fascinating. The North Koreans never give interviews, and I thought Governor Richardson was quite revealing about the negotiations or the talks as he described them that he was having. So really great stuff.
But as to your question about the Nonproliferation Treaty, it's serious, it's significant, but we have been here before. Back in the early '90s, the North Koreans announced that they were going to withdraw from the NPT, or the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. They later reversed policy. And I think we're probably witnessing a reoccurrence of that. It's deja vu all over again. They're announcing that they want to withdraw, although technically, legally that doesn't kick in for another three months, under the treaty, under Article X of the treaty. But they're clearly seem to be open to negotiation, open to dialogue, and it may be something that they would be willing to reverse on.
But this is not the last thing we're going to see. They have been pinging us consistently over the last week or so, and I expect they will be taking other actions that will be equally infuriating to the Bush administration.
WHITFIELD: You mentioned you think it is quite remarkable that the ambassador, North Korean ambassador and the deputy ambassador were to meet with not only an American journalist, but of course to talk to a former Clinton administration official, someone who knows quite personally the dialogue and the goings-on involving North Korea.
You are encouraged, then, at this juncture that perhaps the opening up of dialogue between the U.S. and North Korea perhaps might be in the near future?
WALSH: Well, I won't make any predictions about the timeframe. But am I encouraged? Yes. I am encouraged. I mean, the North Koreans had to get permission to leave New York to go to New Mexico. This never happens. And Governor Richardson came out, and I thought quite directly said that negotiations were candid, they were fruitful. They went on longer than he anticipated, and he himself called for direct dialogue. So I think it's clear that the North Koreans are interested in this direct dialogue. I think the real question is whether the administration is interested in that sort of dialogue, and I think there's a fight within the administration about how to proceed.
There is one group, probably led by Colin Powell, who wants to engage the North Koreans more, and there is another group that has been with the administration since it took office that feels that this is appeasement, and they don't want to talk to them and they want to take a harder line. So a lot of this is going to depend on what the Bush administration decides it wants to do.
WHITFIELD: And we just heard right here live on CNN in that exclusive interview with the ambassador that certainly North Korea's most recent actions are certainly precipitated by President Bush's labeling of the axis of evil, and then we even heard from the North Korean government just in the last couple of days, quite emphatically, that their actions are directly a result of President Bush's axis of evil labeling. So do you believe that this now is going to be inspiration for the Bush White House to perhaps soften its language as it does continue to try to open up talks with North Korea?
WALSH: Well, let me say two things about that, Fredricka. First of all, it's clear that the Bush administration does realize that this policy is in trouble. They did reverse themselves this week after saying no, we're not going to talk, no, we're not going to talk. They said, yes, we are going to talk, but we are not going to do dialogue. So there is change in the Bush administration policy.
But I think I'm sure that there's a lot of resistance to that change within the Bush administration, within some sectors of that administration.
But let's step back and say, about this axis of evil, there's plenty to complain about on both sides. Back in '94, the U.S. and North Korea signed an agreed framework, this was an agreement that had both sides promising it would do certain things, and both sides, or neither side really lived up to that agreement. So the North Koreans are complaining that they were put on the axis of evil when the agreed framework had the U.S. promise that we would do the full economic and diplomatic relations between the two. Obviously that didn't happen.
And then, of course, the American rightly complained that the Koreans went around the back of the agreement and started to explore uranium enrichment, which it bought from Pakistan. So both sides have things to complain about. The agreement was not implemented fully by either side. And so there are two sides, or more than two sides, and so there is a basis for negotiation, a discussion, if the two are willing to come together and talk.
WHITFIELD: All right. Dr. Jim Walsh of Harvard University, thank you very much. Thanks for joining us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 11, 2003 - 16:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: On now to continue our discussions about North Korea. Pyongyang says its nuclear program is purely for peaceful purposes. But its decision to pull out of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty raises serious concerns about what could happen next. And joining me now to discuss this, is Dr. Jim Walsh from Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government.
Good to see you.
JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY'S KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Good to see you, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right, how significant is this that North Korea pulls out of this Nonproliferation Treaty?
WALSH: Well, it's important, but before I say anything, I want to say that those last two interviews with the North Korean ambassador and Governor Richardson were unbelievable. They were fascinating. The North Koreans never give interviews, and I thought Governor Richardson was quite revealing about the negotiations or the talks as he described them that he was having. So really great stuff.
But as to your question about the Nonproliferation Treaty, it's serious, it's significant, but we have been here before. Back in the early '90s, the North Koreans announced that they were going to withdraw from the NPT, or the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. They later reversed policy. And I think we're probably witnessing a reoccurrence of that. It's deja vu all over again. They're announcing that they want to withdraw, although technically, legally that doesn't kick in for another three months, under the treaty, under Article X of the treaty. But they're clearly seem to be open to negotiation, open to dialogue, and it may be something that they would be willing to reverse on.
But this is not the last thing we're going to see. They have been pinging us consistently over the last week or so, and I expect they will be taking other actions that will be equally infuriating to the Bush administration.
WHITFIELD: You mentioned you think it is quite remarkable that the ambassador, North Korean ambassador and the deputy ambassador were to meet with not only an American journalist, but of course to talk to a former Clinton administration official, someone who knows quite personally the dialogue and the goings-on involving North Korea.
You are encouraged, then, at this juncture that perhaps the opening up of dialogue between the U.S. and North Korea perhaps might be in the near future?
WALSH: Well, I won't make any predictions about the timeframe. But am I encouraged? Yes. I am encouraged. I mean, the North Koreans had to get permission to leave New York to go to New Mexico. This never happens. And Governor Richardson came out, and I thought quite directly said that negotiations were candid, they were fruitful. They went on longer than he anticipated, and he himself called for direct dialogue. So I think it's clear that the North Koreans are interested in this direct dialogue. I think the real question is whether the administration is interested in that sort of dialogue, and I think there's a fight within the administration about how to proceed.
There is one group, probably led by Colin Powell, who wants to engage the North Koreans more, and there is another group that has been with the administration since it took office that feels that this is appeasement, and they don't want to talk to them and they want to take a harder line. So a lot of this is going to depend on what the Bush administration decides it wants to do.
WHITFIELD: And we just heard right here live on CNN in that exclusive interview with the ambassador that certainly North Korea's most recent actions are certainly precipitated by President Bush's labeling of the axis of evil, and then we even heard from the North Korean government just in the last couple of days, quite emphatically, that their actions are directly a result of President Bush's axis of evil labeling. So do you believe that this now is going to be inspiration for the Bush White House to perhaps soften its language as it does continue to try to open up talks with North Korea?
WALSH: Well, let me say two things about that, Fredricka. First of all, it's clear that the Bush administration does realize that this policy is in trouble. They did reverse themselves this week after saying no, we're not going to talk, no, we're not going to talk. They said, yes, we are going to talk, but we are not going to do dialogue. So there is change in the Bush administration policy.
But I think I'm sure that there's a lot of resistance to that change within the Bush administration, within some sectors of that administration.
But let's step back and say, about this axis of evil, there's plenty to complain about on both sides. Back in '94, the U.S. and North Korea signed an agreed framework, this was an agreement that had both sides promising it would do certain things, and both sides, or neither side really lived up to that agreement. So the North Koreans are complaining that they were put on the axis of evil when the agreed framework had the U.S. promise that we would do the full economic and diplomatic relations between the two. Obviously that didn't happen.
And then, of course, the American rightly complained that the Koreans went around the back of the agreement and started to explore uranium enrichment, which it bought from Pakistan. So both sides have things to complain about. The agreement was not implemented fully by either side. And so there are two sides, or more than two sides, and so there is a basis for negotiation, a discussion, if the two are willing to come together and talk.
WHITFIELD: All right. Dr. Jim Walsh of Harvard University, thank you very much. Thanks for joining us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
