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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With David Brinkley

Aired March 15, 2003 - 18:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Will the backlash extend to more than freedom fries and French toast? Joining us to discuss the repercussions of France's hard-line stance on Iraq is Douglas Brinkley. He's a history professor at the University of New Orleans.
Good to see you.

DAVID BRINKLEY, UNIV. OF NEW ORLEANS: Thanks for having me on.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, is a Bush legacy going to be, you know, the moment that the U.S. and French relations took a turning point and, perhaps, took a turning point and not being able to turn back?

BRINKLEY: No. But it's certainly part of the drama that's going on, right now. You have to recall that since World War II, U.S./French relations have been constantly rocky. Not just did France pull out of NATO's military command. But they, during the Reagan administrations, didn't want our planes to fly over in the bombing of Libya. You could go on and on.

Basically, France has been trying to create its own voice in foreign policy for decades, now. And this is just another example of it. You can't find an administration that's had a particularly fruitful relationship with the French.

With that said, they are allies, and they are mainly economic allies. But I would say, at this point in time, we don't consider them a trusted ally.

WHITFIELD: Well, given that they are allies and continue to be allies then, is this an example between Chirac and Bush of perhaps a communication problem or just not understanding one another culturally in which to convey their messages?

BRINKLEY: There's definitely a cultural gap, there. I don't think too much of the world appreciated the Bush doctrine, the notion of preemptive strike. And I think...

WHITFIELD: Did that have anything to do with the positions they're taking on Iraq?

BRINKLEY: Absolutely. I mean, I think the French are trying to say that the world just can't have one superpower, the United States. There have to be alternative centers. And they want Paris to be one of them, as they have for a while. Remember, France has had their own nuclear program for quite a while. When de Gaulle was in, it was called Force de Frappe. And they -- often, the great fear of de Gaulle was the Anglo Saxons, the American/British alliance. And that constantly is trying to define itself as this independent voice.

But I think it's problematic, in this case, because France has dealt with Iraq in recent years, that they've provided them with nuclear capabilities that France really desires and uses the oil in Iraq. And so, hence, they are trying to create a new type of Europe where France is a leader of Russia, of Germany in a kind of new alliance where the Anglo Americans are at it again with their allies. Australia -- and I think what's interesting here is to see how firmly Spain, Italy and some other European countries, many of the ones in central Europe are standing behind the United States, right now.

There is a realignment going on in Europe. There's no doubt about it.

WHITFIELD: Is it a stretch to say that even France may have been trying to make its position well-known, even during the conspirator of the 9/11 attacks, Zacarias Moussaoui, that France made it very clear that they did not want to see the death penalty applied in this case of Zacarias Moussaoui, and now, here we go again with the French making a very clear stand about its position on another very hot topic, this one being Iraq?

BRINKLEY: Yes, that's true, but we also have to remember Chirac came to the United States to see President Bush right after 9/11 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) made some very moving remarks at that time.

What I would argue is that there's always a tension in American/French relations. It's going to continue. It's at a low mark, right now. People in the United States should be angry at France. But the sense of kind of renaming, you know, French fries to freedom fries or trying to boycott French goods, I think individuals might want to do that.

But as a -- collectively, as the American people and our government, we need France for other things down the line. France still is an ally. They still believe in, if you like, democracy, liberty, many of the things that we cherish. And I wouldn't want to see our problem that we have with France, right now, create a complete and utter rift between France and the United States, but it's definitely at a low moment, right now.

WHITFIELD: And Douglas, if there is a war, do you see that the relations between the French and the U.S. are irreversible or do you see the French, in any way, coming to the aid of the Iraqis or even the allied forces, if a war does ensue?

BRINKLEY: I think they're going to be rooting against us in many ways. They're going to hope that the United States military effort in Iraq fumbles or does badly. They want to be proven correct. If we have a decisive and swift victory, I think there'll be no role for France in rebuilding of Iraq. I think that will be the punishment the U.S. government's probably going to extract, and it will be curious to see how France tries to get back on board in creating a post-war government there, when we get to that moment.

But I think for a time being, there's going to continue to be estrangement between the Bush administration and the Chirac government because these two look at the world from a very different place. But each person, Chirac and Bush, puts what they consider the national security of their own country first.

WHITFIELD: All right, Professor Douglas Brinkley, thank you very much from the University of New Orleans.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired March 15, 2003 - 18:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Will the backlash extend to more than freedom fries and French toast? Joining us to discuss the repercussions of France's hard-line stance on Iraq is Douglas Brinkley. He's a history professor at the University of New Orleans.
Good to see you.

DAVID BRINKLEY, UNIV. OF NEW ORLEANS: Thanks for having me on.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, is a Bush legacy going to be, you know, the moment that the U.S. and French relations took a turning point and, perhaps, took a turning point and not being able to turn back?

BRINKLEY: No. But it's certainly part of the drama that's going on, right now. You have to recall that since World War II, U.S./French relations have been constantly rocky. Not just did France pull out of NATO's military command. But they, during the Reagan administrations, didn't want our planes to fly over in the bombing of Libya. You could go on and on.

Basically, France has been trying to create its own voice in foreign policy for decades, now. And this is just another example of it. You can't find an administration that's had a particularly fruitful relationship with the French.

With that said, they are allies, and they are mainly economic allies. But I would say, at this point in time, we don't consider them a trusted ally.

WHITFIELD: Well, given that they are allies and continue to be allies then, is this an example between Chirac and Bush of perhaps a communication problem or just not understanding one another culturally in which to convey their messages?

BRINKLEY: There's definitely a cultural gap, there. I don't think too much of the world appreciated the Bush doctrine, the notion of preemptive strike. And I think...

WHITFIELD: Did that have anything to do with the positions they're taking on Iraq?

BRINKLEY: Absolutely. I mean, I think the French are trying to say that the world just can't have one superpower, the United States. There have to be alternative centers. And they want Paris to be one of them, as they have for a while. Remember, France has had their own nuclear program for quite a while. When de Gaulle was in, it was called Force de Frappe. And they -- often, the great fear of de Gaulle was the Anglo Saxons, the American/British alliance. And that constantly is trying to define itself as this independent voice.

But I think it's problematic, in this case, because France has dealt with Iraq in recent years, that they've provided them with nuclear capabilities that France really desires and uses the oil in Iraq. And so, hence, they are trying to create a new type of Europe where France is a leader of Russia, of Germany in a kind of new alliance where the Anglo Americans are at it again with their allies. Australia -- and I think what's interesting here is to see how firmly Spain, Italy and some other European countries, many of the ones in central Europe are standing behind the United States, right now.

There is a realignment going on in Europe. There's no doubt about it.

WHITFIELD: Is it a stretch to say that even France may have been trying to make its position well-known, even during the conspirator of the 9/11 attacks, Zacarias Moussaoui, that France made it very clear that they did not want to see the death penalty applied in this case of Zacarias Moussaoui, and now, here we go again with the French making a very clear stand about its position on another very hot topic, this one being Iraq?

BRINKLEY: Yes, that's true, but we also have to remember Chirac came to the United States to see President Bush right after 9/11 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) made some very moving remarks at that time.

What I would argue is that there's always a tension in American/French relations. It's going to continue. It's at a low mark, right now. People in the United States should be angry at France. But the sense of kind of renaming, you know, French fries to freedom fries or trying to boycott French goods, I think individuals might want to do that.

But as a -- collectively, as the American people and our government, we need France for other things down the line. France still is an ally. They still believe in, if you like, democracy, liberty, many of the things that we cherish. And I wouldn't want to see our problem that we have with France, right now, create a complete and utter rift between France and the United States, but it's definitely at a low moment, right now.

WHITFIELD: And Douglas, if there is a war, do you see that the relations between the French and the U.S. are irreversible or do you see the French, in any way, coming to the aid of the Iraqis or even the allied forces, if a war does ensue?

BRINKLEY: I think they're going to be rooting against us in many ways. They're going to hope that the United States military effort in Iraq fumbles or does badly. They want to be proven correct. If we have a decisive and swift victory, I think there'll be no role for France in rebuilding of Iraq. I think that will be the punishment the U.S. government's probably going to extract, and it will be curious to see how France tries to get back on board in creating a post-war government there, when we get to that moment.

But I think for a time being, there's going to continue to be estrangement between the Bush administration and the Chirac government because these two look at the world from a very different place. But each person, Chirac and Bush, puts what they consider the national security of their own country first.

WHITFIELD: All right, Professor Douglas Brinkley, thank you very much from the University of New Orleans.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com