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CNN Live Saturday
Interview With R.K. Ramazani
Aired May 03, 2003 - 16:15 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The Bush administration is working to set up a democratic government for Iraq, but our next guest says American-style democracy in Iraq is doomed to failure and Iran provides lessons Washington should heed.
R.K. Ramazani is professor emeritus at the University of Virginia and he has written extensively on the Middle East. Professor Ramazani joins us now from Charlottesville, Virginia, good to see you.
PROF. R.K. RAMAZANI, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Glad to see you.
WHITFIELD: Well, what parallel do you see now between Iraq and Iran?
RAMAZANI: Well, as I mentioned in my op ed, the real problem here is that we don't learn from our lessons, our own experience, and that is looking at these Iraqis as simply Shia factions is certainly true and is part of the picture but beyond that when they perceive that there is a common enemy then they unite together.
And, in Iran, before the revolution they were all a variety of people who wanted to see change, fundamental change. They were secular and non-secular Islamists and others and then in terms of opposition to the Shah's regime they all united, really, and brought down the Shah regime.
And here, right after the revolution and in the post revolution era, all the factions of course were at each other's throat. There are lessons in these to learn because our military presence in Iraq can indeed...
WHITFIELD: Well, professor.
RAMAZANI: Yes.
WHITFIELD: Let me ask you this.
RAMAZANI: Sure.
WHITFIELD: The American government has divided the country up into three military regions.
RAMAZANI: Sure.
WHITFIELD: Is it your concern and that would then involve the Americans and the Brits as well, is it your concern, however, that perhaps the American government was ill-prepared in understanding the religious differences and the factional differences of this country before trying to carve it up in a region to try to bring about some interim government?
RAMAZANI: Yes. You know this carving up, again it all depends what shape it takes. What is increasingly worrisome is that the total exclusion of the United Nations.
Now if you get the Poles and the Bulgarians and others, you know, in this new attempt, so to speak, to put a face of multilateral or multinational face on this, I don't think really it would go very far in the Middle East because it will be seen still as military presence and occupation.
And the most worrisome thing about the future is in terms of political domination, that even if military occupation is ended, there will be an attempt in the process of creating a new government for Iraq, then it will become handpicked delegates...
WHITFIELD: So...
RAMAZANI: ...by the United States.
WHITFIELD: Is it your concern as well that the American government will be unable to try to promote or help encourage a government that will be accepting among all ethnic and, you know...
RAMAZANI: Yes.
WHITFIELD: ...religious groups in Iraq?
RAMAZANI: Yes.
WHITFIELD: And, at the same time then potentially produce another form of anarchy that could likely come about in just a few months if not, you know, a few weeks from now?
RAMAZANI: Yes. The question...
WHITFIELD: Without some sort of authority?
RAMAZANI: Sure. The question of order is extremely important but, again, it's not the question of whether or not there should be order or liberty, freedom, but the question really is that order, what kind of order we are talking about, you know.
If it is again perceived as simply American dictate, then it would be troublesome, but certainly order is necessary but the main question really in regard to the future government of Iraq is that of how we do this process in a way that it would not be perceived as handpicked delegates from the United States or favored by the United States, and somehow take no serious note of the Shia mainstream in Iraq as well as obviously other factors but that is the primary concern that we tend to think in terms of pro-American and anti- American clerics and that is a non starter.
WHITFIELD: Professor Ramazani of the University of Virginia thank you very much for joining us from Charlottesville, Virginia.
RAMAZANI: You're welcome.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 3, 2003 - 16:15 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The Bush administration is working to set up a democratic government for Iraq, but our next guest says American-style democracy in Iraq is doomed to failure and Iran provides lessons Washington should heed.
R.K. Ramazani is professor emeritus at the University of Virginia and he has written extensively on the Middle East. Professor Ramazani joins us now from Charlottesville, Virginia, good to see you.
PROF. R.K. RAMAZANI, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Glad to see you.
WHITFIELD: Well, what parallel do you see now between Iraq and Iran?
RAMAZANI: Well, as I mentioned in my op ed, the real problem here is that we don't learn from our lessons, our own experience, and that is looking at these Iraqis as simply Shia factions is certainly true and is part of the picture but beyond that when they perceive that there is a common enemy then they unite together.
And, in Iran, before the revolution they were all a variety of people who wanted to see change, fundamental change. They were secular and non-secular Islamists and others and then in terms of opposition to the Shah's regime they all united, really, and brought down the Shah regime.
And here, right after the revolution and in the post revolution era, all the factions of course were at each other's throat. There are lessons in these to learn because our military presence in Iraq can indeed...
WHITFIELD: Well, professor.
RAMAZANI: Yes.
WHITFIELD: Let me ask you this.
RAMAZANI: Sure.
WHITFIELD: The American government has divided the country up into three military regions.
RAMAZANI: Sure.
WHITFIELD: Is it your concern and that would then involve the Americans and the Brits as well, is it your concern, however, that perhaps the American government was ill-prepared in understanding the religious differences and the factional differences of this country before trying to carve it up in a region to try to bring about some interim government?
RAMAZANI: Yes. You know this carving up, again it all depends what shape it takes. What is increasingly worrisome is that the total exclusion of the United Nations.
Now if you get the Poles and the Bulgarians and others, you know, in this new attempt, so to speak, to put a face of multilateral or multinational face on this, I don't think really it would go very far in the Middle East because it will be seen still as military presence and occupation.
And the most worrisome thing about the future is in terms of political domination, that even if military occupation is ended, there will be an attempt in the process of creating a new government for Iraq, then it will become handpicked delegates...
WHITFIELD: So...
RAMAZANI: ...by the United States.
WHITFIELD: Is it your concern as well that the American government will be unable to try to promote or help encourage a government that will be accepting among all ethnic and, you know...
RAMAZANI: Yes.
WHITFIELD: ...religious groups in Iraq?
RAMAZANI: Yes.
WHITFIELD: And, at the same time then potentially produce another form of anarchy that could likely come about in just a few months if not, you know, a few weeks from now?
RAMAZANI: Yes. The question...
WHITFIELD: Without some sort of authority?
RAMAZANI: Sure. The question of order is extremely important but, again, it's not the question of whether or not there should be order or liberty, freedom, but the question really is that order, what kind of order we are talking about, you know.
If it is again perceived as simply American dictate, then it would be troublesome, but certainly order is necessary but the main question really in regard to the future government of Iraq is that of how we do this process in a way that it would not be perceived as handpicked delegates from the United States or favored by the United States, and somehow take no serious note of the Shia mainstream in Iraq as well as obviously other factors but that is the primary concern that we tend to think in terms of pro-American and anti- American clerics and that is a non starter.
WHITFIELD: Professor Ramazani of the University of Virginia thank you very much for joining us from Charlottesville, Virginia.
RAMAZANI: You're welcome.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
