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CNN Live Saturday
Interview With Albert Mohler, Charles Kimball
Aired May 10, 2003 - 18:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Some Christian groups see Iraq as fertile ground for soul winning. They're ready to send missionaries to till the soil and convert Muslims. But this idea of proselytizing in Iraq offends some Muslims and has the Christian fold divided.
The Reverend Albert Mohler is president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and he thinks Iraq is fair game for evangelism. The Reverend Charles Kimball disagrees. He's a professor of religion and author of "When Religion Becomes Evil."
Good to see both of you.
REV. ALBERT MOHLER, PRES., S. BAPT. THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: Good to be with you.
WHITFIELD: Well, Reverend Mohler, let me begin with you. Why do you believe that this is a time or the place in which to spread the word, in a mostly Muslim country?
MOHLER: Well, Christians are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Lord himself said to his disciples that we are to go into all the world and make disciples. It was he who said that salvation is found in his name, that salvation comes to those who believe in him and he also said that salvation is found in no other way. And so, our issue really is faithfulness to the command of the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is our assignment.
WHITFIELD: But don't you see outside of that, that right now it is a very volatile region and there have been so many ongoing disputes as to whether the American influence there and now bring in American religious leaders into the fold is certainly defeating the purpose, over the argument over occupation or whether it is liberating a country, et cetera.
MOHLER: Well, by no means should Christians ever go into any nation in the name of the United States. And I would expect this would be an international effort by Christian groups from all over the world. They are active in virtually every nation of the world at present.
It is just interesting that the secular left has all of a sudden become outraged at the idea that the people of Iraq should experience the same religious liberty and hear the same gospel that Christians preach everywhere else. And that we would expect that as a basic freedom, anywhere, certainly, where we would identify as where freedom has been earned and tyranny has been overturned.
WHITFIELD: Well, that's an American point of view.
Reverend Kimball, what do you see as the problem of Reverend Mohler's approach here?
REV. CHARLES KIMBALL, PROFESSOR, WAKE FOREST UNIV.: Well, certainly, the first need in Iraq is humanitarian. These people have gone through a war, they've been through 12 years of devastating sanctions and a brutal dictator. The first concern as a Christian, for me, is how to provide humanitarian assistance to people in the say way we try to provide humanitarian assistance for people who are victims of tornadoes in the Midwest right now.
So, how you do that is the first set of concerns. And there are many ways to do that, in fact. There are Christians in the Middle East. Indeed, there are many Christians in the United States who have been working actively with those Christians for quite a long while.
There are ways to work through humanitarian organizations that are well known on the ground and Christians and Muslims who are already there, to help build a better society.
Right now, to proselytize, or to have that at the forefront, smacks of a kind of Christian triumphalism and in a place where it already has a history of the Crusades and the shadow of colonialism. It is like lighting a match in a room full of explosives.
WHITFIELD: How do you see that this could potentially be any kind of successful mission if indeed, as you're saying, the initial needs of humanitarian assistance have to be met first. And how does that not get clouded with the religious message that would be implied by these religious leaders, approaching and ending up in Iraq?
KIMBALL: Right. Well, I think that's why it is very important that we think about what's the best way, the most effective way to try and help meet the terrible human needs that face the people in Iraq. And as I say, there are organizations that have been working.
The International Red Cross, the Red Crescent, there are Christians, over half a million Christians in Iraq that seem to be ignored in this debate. Over 16 million Christians who are Arabic speaking in the Middle East. There are ways to work together ecumenically that are much less threatening than new groups going in that have already been tagged.
And I think that's the real issue. A number of prominent evangelical groups have been very busy in the last year and a half, calling Islam an evil religion, Mohammed a terrorist or a demon possessed pedophile. These sort of words have a real life and these organizations and groups like the Southern Baptist Convention, which has a number of it's prominent leaders have made these kinds of statements, from Franklin Graham, with Samaritan's Purse.
These words are circulating around the Middle East. And any group that goes in with kind of upfront proselytizing agenda, I think, is going to be labeled and play to the worst fears of people in the Middle East. Indeed, to be very incendiary.
WHITFIELD: All right, let's talk about the fears right after we take a short break. And we're going continue this conversation and explore what some of those fears are in Iraq. And at the same time, how in the world do you offer humanitarian aid without delivering the word of the Lord, from Christianity? When we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: We're going to continue our conversation now. Do American evangelicals have a place in Iraq?
Let's pick it up where we left off, with Reverend Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Reverend Charles Kimball, religion professor and author of "When Religion Becomes Evil."
And Reverend Mohler, let me ask you, if you can respond to Reverend Kimball's questions, which is how do you offer humanitarian aid without forcing down the throats of the Muslim people there, mostly Muslim people, Christianity?
MOHLER: Well, first of all, we do not believe in any kind of evangelism by coercion. No one can be coerced to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a gift and we offer the message of the Gospel in hopes that persons will respond.
WHITFIELD: But how practically are you going to offer humanitarian aid without speaking religion?
MOHLER: Well, I don't think that true Christians can do that. I agree with Dr. Kimball, that there are urgent humanitarian needs that really must be met and I agree with that whole-heartedly. I also agree with his call for sensitivity. But we cannot be so sensitive that we abandon the Gospel. And we must understand that these people have an even deeper need than food and clothing and shelter. Those immediate needs point to deeper needs.
WHITFIELD: But are you being sensitive by implying to them, mostly Muslim people there, that their religion is not good enough and that there should be options such as Christianity?
MOHLER: Well, you know that may be offensive, but it is no more offensive than the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been over 2,000 years. And Muslims, because they also hold to a missionary faith, first of all understand that. And I think we really respect each other enough to speak to each other the truth. And I think that is the ultimate tribute of respect that one person can pay to another. And as a Christian, that means telling them about Jesus.
WHITFIELD: And with your plans of hoping to spread the Word, do you feel like you are also sending a message that you think that the Muslim faith is wrong or is evil? Or how do you personally feel about that faith?
MOHLER: Well, we do not mean to imply that all Muslims are evil by any means. We do -- must -- let me put it this way. We are in a position where truth telling requires us to say that we believe the Christian gospel is the only way of salvation. And that means that any other way that leads in any other direction away from the cross of Jesus Christ, is a way that leads not into life, but unto death. And that is a non-negotiable issue central to classical, Biblical Christianity.
WHITFIELD: Well, Reverend Kimball, President Bush had tried to make it very clear that this campaign, this war, being launched on Iraq, would not be an anti-Muslim campaign. Do you believe that this mission or a plan to have missionaries, led by evangelical leaders, would in anyway undermine the president's work or his word, his promise that he was making to the Iraqi people?
KIMBALL: Indeed, the president has repeatedly said that Islam is a good and peaceful religion and that our conflict, our concern, is not with Islam. Indeed, there are people on the Muslim side who are trying to make everything into a war between Christianity and Islam.
But I'm troubled by the words that are being used about the true Christian message, or a non-negotiable. I've worked for many years with Presbyterians, with Methodists, with Lutherans, with Catholics, with Orthodox Christians. There are a whole lot of Christians who have a wider understanding of mission. There are many ways to engage in Christian mission and witness.
There isn't a singular way. And we begin talking in monolithic terms as though there is one true way and only one acid test for true Christianity, then we're starting down the road, I think, of the kinds of things that lead people justify almost anything in the name of religion. We have to be very, very careful about that and much more humble.
I believe that God is the God of all creation, that God is not without a witness anywhere in the world. And indeed, we can engage people across religious lines with deep dialogue and truth telling in both directions. But we ought to be very, very careful in an explosive situation about going in and confusing an already confused situation with another agenda.
WHITFIELD: And Reverend Mohler, when does this mission actually begin?
MOHLER: Well, the Christian mission began with the disciples in the first century. You know, it is not new, Fredricka, that Christians are active in Muslim nations even now. There have been Christians in Iraq before American military action.
And so, I'm certainly not speaking operationally on behalf of Christian missionary organizations, but I can tell you that this is the heart of Christianity. And Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father, but by me.
The only way someone who calls himself a Christian can get around that is by thinking that Jesus actually didn't say it, or that Jesus was wrong. WHITFIELD: All right, so Reverend Mohler, so the question is -- or the reply, perhaps, is that you don't have a plane ticket. You're not planning on arriving in Iraq or Baghdad anytime soon?
MOHLER: I am not personally scheduled to be in Iraq, but there are Christians already there who are already about the task of witnessing and evangelizing.
WHITFIELD: OK, Reverend Albert Mohler and Reverend Charles Kimball, thanks to you gentlemen, for joining us.
KIMBALL: Thank you.
MOHLER: Good to be with you, Fredricka.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 10, 2003 - 18:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Some Christian groups see Iraq as fertile ground for soul winning. They're ready to send missionaries to till the soil and convert Muslims. But this idea of proselytizing in Iraq offends some Muslims and has the Christian fold divided.
The Reverend Albert Mohler is president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and he thinks Iraq is fair game for evangelism. The Reverend Charles Kimball disagrees. He's a professor of religion and author of "When Religion Becomes Evil."
Good to see both of you.
REV. ALBERT MOHLER, PRES., S. BAPT. THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: Good to be with you.
WHITFIELD: Well, Reverend Mohler, let me begin with you. Why do you believe that this is a time or the place in which to spread the word, in a mostly Muslim country?
MOHLER: Well, Christians are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Lord himself said to his disciples that we are to go into all the world and make disciples. It was he who said that salvation is found in his name, that salvation comes to those who believe in him and he also said that salvation is found in no other way. And so, our issue really is faithfulness to the command of the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is our assignment.
WHITFIELD: But don't you see outside of that, that right now it is a very volatile region and there have been so many ongoing disputes as to whether the American influence there and now bring in American religious leaders into the fold is certainly defeating the purpose, over the argument over occupation or whether it is liberating a country, et cetera.
MOHLER: Well, by no means should Christians ever go into any nation in the name of the United States. And I would expect this would be an international effort by Christian groups from all over the world. They are active in virtually every nation of the world at present.
It is just interesting that the secular left has all of a sudden become outraged at the idea that the people of Iraq should experience the same religious liberty and hear the same gospel that Christians preach everywhere else. And that we would expect that as a basic freedom, anywhere, certainly, where we would identify as where freedom has been earned and tyranny has been overturned.
WHITFIELD: Well, that's an American point of view.
Reverend Kimball, what do you see as the problem of Reverend Mohler's approach here?
REV. CHARLES KIMBALL, PROFESSOR, WAKE FOREST UNIV.: Well, certainly, the first need in Iraq is humanitarian. These people have gone through a war, they've been through 12 years of devastating sanctions and a brutal dictator. The first concern as a Christian, for me, is how to provide humanitarian assistance to people in the say way we try to provide humanitarian assistance for people who are victims of tornadoes in the Midwest right now.
So, how you do that is the first set of concerns. And there are many ways to do that, in fact. There are Christians in the Middle East. Indeed, there are many Christians in the United States who have been working actively with those Christians for quite a long while.
There are ways to work through humanitarian organizations that are well known on the ground and Christians and Muslims who are already there, to help build a better society.
Right now, to proselytize, or to have that at the forefront, smacks of a kind of Christian triumphalism and in a place where it already has a history of the Crusades and the shadow of colonialism. It is like lighting a match in a room full of explosives.
WHITFIELD: How do you see that this could potentially be any kind of successful mission if indeed, as you're saying, the initial needs of humanitarian assistance have to be met first. And how does that not get clouded with the religious message that would be implied by these religious leaders, approaching and ending up in Iraq?
KIMBALL: Right. Well, I think that's why it is very important that we think about what's the best way, the most effective way to try and help meet the terrible human needs that face the people in Iraq. And as I say, there are organizations that have been working.
The International Red Cross, the Red Crescent, there are Christians, over half a million Christians in Iraq that seem to be ignored in this debate. Over 16 million Christians who are Arabic speaking in the Middle East. There are ways to work together ecumenically that are much less threatening than new groups going in that have already been tagged.
And I think that's the real issue. A number of prominent evangelical groups have been very busy in the last year and a half, calling Islam an evil religion, Mohammed a terrorist or a demon possessed pedophile. These sort of words have a real life and these organizations and groups like the Southern Baptist Convention, which has a number of it's prominent leaders have made these kinds of statements, from Franklin Graham, with Samaritan's Purse.
These words are circulating around the Middle East. And any group that goes in with kind of upfront proselytizing agenda, I think, is going to be labeled and play to the worst fears of people in the Middle East. Indeed, to be very incendiary.
WHITFIELD: All right, let's talk about the fears right after we take a short break. And we're going continue this conversation and explore what some of those fears are in Iraq. And at the same time, how in the world do you offer humanitarian aid without delivering the word of the Lord, from Christianity? When we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: We're going to continue our conversation now. Do American evangelicals have a place in Iraq?
Let's pick it up where we left off, with Reverend Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Reverend Charles Kimball, religion professor and author of "When Religion Becomes Evil."
And Reverend Mohler, let me ask you, if you can respond to Reverend Kimball's questions, which is how do you offer humanitarian aid without forcing down the throats of the Muslim people there, mostly Muslim people, Christianity?
MOHLER: Well, first of all, we do not believe in any kind of evangelism by coercion. No one can be coerced to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a gift and we offer the message of the Gospel in hopes that persons will respond.
WHITFIELD: But how practically are you going to offer humanitarian aid without speaking religion?
MOHLER: Well, I don't think that true Christians can do that. I agree with Dr. Kimball, that there are urgent humanitarian needs that really must be met and I agree with that whole-heartedly. I also agree with his call for sensitivity. But we cannot be so sensitive that we abandon the Gospel. And we must understand that these people have an even deeper need than food and clothing and shelter. Those immediate needs point to deeper needs.
WHITFIELD: But are you being sensitive by implying to them, mostly Muslim people there, that their religion is not good enough and that there should be options such as Christianity?
MOHLER: Well, you know that may be offensive, but it is no more offensive than the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been over 2,000 years. And Muslims, because they also hold to a missionary faith, first of all understand that. And I think we really respect each other enough to speak to each other the truth. And I think that is the ultimate tribute of respect that one person can pay to another. And as a Christian, that means telling them about Jesus.
WHITFIELD: And with your plans of hoping to spread the Word, do you feel like you are also sending a message that you think that the Muslim faith is wrong or is evil? Or how do you personally feel about that faith?
MOHLER: Well, we do not mean to imply that all Muslims are evil by any means. We do -- must -- let me put it this way. We are in a position where truth telling requires us to say that we believe the Christian gospel is the only way of salvation. And that means that any other way that leads in any other direction away from the cross of Jesus Christ, is a way that leads not into life, but unto death. And that is a non-negotiable issue central to classical, Biblical Christianity.
WHITFIELD: Well, Reverend Kimball, President Bush had tried to make it very clear that this campaign, this war, being launched on Iraq, would not be an anti-Muslim campaign. Do you believe that this mission or a plan to have missionaries, led by evangelical leaders, would in anyway undermine the president's work or his word, his promise that he was making to the Iraqi people?
KIMBALL: Indeed, the president has repeatedly said that Islam is a good and peaceful religion and that our conflict, our concern, is not with Islam. Indeed, there are people on the Muslim side who are trying to make everything into a war between Christianity and Islam.
But I'm troubled by the words that are being used about the true Christian message, or a non-negotiable. I've worked for many years with Presbyterians, with Methodists, with Lutherans, with Catholics, with Orthodox Christians. There are a whole lot of Christians who have a wider understanding of mission. There are many ways to engage in Christian mission and witness.
There isn't a singular way. And we begin talking in monolithic terms as though there is one true way and only one acid test for true Christianity, then we're starting down the road, I think, of the kinds of things that lead people justify almost anything in the name of religion. We have to be very, very careful about that and much more humble.
I believe that God is the God of all creation, that God is not without a witness anywhere in the world. And indeed, we can engage people across religious lines with deep dialogue and truth telling in both directions. But we ought to be very, very careful in an explosive situation about going in and confusing an already confused situation with another agenda.
WHITFIELD: And Reverend Mohler, when does this mission actually begin?
MOHLER: Well, the Christian mission began with the disciples in the first century. You know, it is not new, Fredricka, that Christians are active in Muslim nations even now. There have been Christians in Iraq before American military action.
And so, I'm certainly not speaking operationally on behalf of Christian missionary organizations, but I can tell you that this is the heart of Christianity. And Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father, but by me.
The only way someone who calls himself a Christian can get around that is by thinking that Jesus actually didn't say it, or that Jesus was wrong. WHITFIELD: All right, so Reverend Mohler, so the question is -- or the reply, perhaps, is that you don't have a plane ticket. You're not planning on arriving in Iraq or Baghdad anytime soon?
MOHLER: I am not personally scheduled to be in Iraq, but there are Christians already there who are already about the task of witnessing and evangelizing.
WHITFIELD: OK, Reverend Albert Mohler and Reverend Charles Kimball, thanks to you gentlemen, for joining us.
KIMBALL: Thank you.
MOHLER: Good to be with you, Fredricka.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
