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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With Michael Hartmann

Aired May 17, 2003 - 16:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The coalition is bringing in former New York City Police Chief Bernard Kerik to help establish law and order in Iraq. Kerik led the NYPD through the September 11 tragedy. He was on the scene within minutes of the attacks. Kerik is described as a tough no-nonsense kind of guy. He will help set up a new police force and prison system for Iraq.
Let's talk about the security situation now with Michael Hartmann. He's with the U.S. Institute for Peace in Washington. Mr. Hartmann worked in post-war Kosovo to restore the rule of law there. Hello to you, sir. Thanks so much for being with us today.

MICHAEL HARTMANN, U.S. INSTITUTE FOR PEACE: Nice to be here.

COLLINS: I just want to begin with what steps exactly need to be taken in order to restore law and order in Iraq.

HARTMANN: I think the first step is that the U.S. needs to say it's time to involve the rest of the world and that means, I would suggest, going to the United Nations.

COLLINS: Going to the United Nations, why?

HARTMANN: Because the United Nations has the capability to handle the situation. The problem is that the United States doesn't have either the institutional expertise or enough personnel to do this on its own. It's a real big job.

In Kosovo it took the United Nations before you had a lot of the same problems dealt with, which were crimes due to a power vacuum, crimes because of organized crime, and also attacks on the security forces.

COLLINS: Do you think the United States was prepared for this?

HARTMANN: I think the United States was prepared but not enough. There were a lot of predictions that there was going to be this type of problems and we didn't have the mechanisms in place to take care of it.

But that in part is because the United States military has never had the type of, if you will, civilian constabulary like the Jandarmerie in Italy that other countries have had. This is a new situation and now I think is the time to use experience, which we can get from some other countries. COLLINS: I think it's interesting to point out too that the Fourth Geneva Convention makes establishing rule of law an obligation. What is involved with that process?

HARTMANN: I agree completely. What's involved is first of all have a working police system. I understand from your broadcast that only two stations have yet opened up in Baghdad. We need to get the police working. That means you have to vet them. You have to make sure that you don't have those Ba'athists who are doing human rights violations under Saddam.

Second of all, you've got to get international involvement both in assistance and training of the police and judiciary. Second of all, in oversight and monitoring what they do and, third, I would suggest that for that small portion of crime where the Iraqis don't have the capability, we need to have international judges, prosecutors, and police involved.

COLLINS: So, do you think Bernard Kerik is the man for the job?

HARTMANN: From what I've read he certainly can do the job. I know you have other people already in Iraq, such as Mr. Williamson who is advising the ministry of justice who worked in Kosovo. They know the problems. They can do the job.

The question is whether we can get enough people in there to support them with the experience in post conflict situations and that's why I'm suggesting that we give the U.N. at least that role if they'll accept it.

COLLINS: All right, Michael Hartmann, appreciate your insights today from the U.S. Institute for Peace coming to us from Washington. Thanks so much.

HARTMANN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 17, 2003 - 16:18   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The coalition is bringing in former New York City Police Chief Bernard Kerik to help establish law and order in Iraq. Kerik led the NYPD through the September 11 tragedy. He was on the scene within minutes of the attacks. Kerik is described as a tough no-nonsense kind of guy. He will help set up a new police force and prison system for Iraq.
Let's talk about the security situation now with Michael Hartmann. He's with the U.S. Institute for Peace in Washington. Mr. Hartmann worked in post-war Kosovo to restore the rule of law there. Hello to you, sir. Thanks so much for being with us today.

MICHAEL HARTMANN, U.S. INSTITUTE FOR PEACE: Nice to be here.

COLLINS: I just want to begin with what steps exactly need to be taken in order to restore law and order in Iraq.

HARTMANN: I think the first step is that the U.S. needs to say it's time to involve the rest of the world and that means, I would suggest, going to the United Nations.

COLLINS: Going to the United Nations, why?

HARTMANN: Because the United Nations has the capability to handle the situation. The problem is that the United States doesn't have either the institutional expertise or enough personnel to do this on its own. It's a real big job.

In Kosovo it took the United Nations before you had a lot of the same problems dealt with, which were crimes due to a power vacuum, crimes because of organized crime, and also attacks on the security forces.

COLLINS: Do you think the United States was prepared for this?

HARTMANN: I think the United States was prepared but not enough. There were a lot of predictions that there was going to be this type of problems and we didn't have the mechanisms in place to take care of it.

But that in part is because the United States military has never had the type of, if you will, civilian constabulary like the Jandarmerie in Italy that other countries have had. This is a new situation and now I think is the time to use experience, which we can get from some other countries. COLLINS: I think it's interesting to point out too that the Fourth Geneva Convention makes establishing rule of law an obligation. What is involved with that process?

HARTMANN: I agree completely. What's involved is first of all have a working police system. I understand from your broadcast that only two stations have yet opened up in Baghdad. We need to get the police working. That means you have to vet them. You have to make sure that you don't have those Ba'athists who are doing human rights violations under Saddam.

Second of all, you've got to get international involvement both in assistance and training of the police and judiciary. Second of all, in oversight and monitoring what they do and, third, I would suggest that for that small portion of crime where the Iraqis don't have the capability, we need to have international judges, prosecutors, and police involved.

COLLINS: So, do you think Bernard Kerik is the man for the job?

HARTMANN: From what I've read he certainly can do the job. I know you have other people already in Iraq, such as Mr. Williamson who is advising the ministry of justice who worked in Kosovo. They know the problems. They can do the job.

The question is whether we can get enough people in there to support them with the experience in post conflict situations and that's why I'm suggesting that we give the U.N. at least that role if they'll accept it.

COLLINS: All right, Michael Hartmann, appreciate your insights today from the U.S. Institute for Peace coming to us from Washington. Thanks so much.

HARTMANN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com