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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With Harvey Kushner, Kelly McCann

Aired May 17, 2003 - 16:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: As U.S. officials prepare for the possibility of renewed terrorist attacks on American soil they're also confronting the reality that al Qaeda and other terrorist groups could strike overseas targets as well.
Here to talk more about that our CNN Security Analyst J. Kelly McCann, and Harvey Kushner author of the "Encyclopedia of Terrorism." Welcome to you both. If there was another attack, how prepared is the U.S., Harvey?

HARVEY KUSHNER, AUTHOR, "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF TERRORISM": Well, we're certainly better prepared than we were before 9/11 but, you know, you can never be completely prepared, Heidi. There are certain factors that happen and in all these tabletop exercises and drills, training is good, but you know terrorists always have that edge. They always have the element of surprise. But if I had to rate it, it was certainly a B-plus. Before 9/11 we were caught with our pants down.

COLLINS: Kelly McCann how do you think the U.S. fared in this terrorism exercise?

J. KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Heidi. Well, I think we did well. I think of course interagency communications can always be better than it is and, of course, logistics. Logistics is a huge concern in an event like this. For example, what we just saw in the package that Jeanne Meserve had was just the issues about where to put all the people that become casualties, evacuation questions.

In other words, do we evacuate? Do we not evacuate? And, do we inform the public and how much? Those I think were the key learning points that people walked away from on this.

COLLINS: Mr. Kushner I want to ask you quickly. Last week you were on our air and you talked a little bit about the threat of al Qaeda and you suggested that the group had been incapacitated. I'm wondering what you think now after what's happened in Saudi Arabia and Morocco if you have any reaction to that.

KUSHNER: Well, when I said that I said incapacitated in terms of the structure. What I also said was that you have freelancers. You have others who are on the periphery who can strike, and I think this is a perfect example of what happened in Saudi Arabia and possibly in Morocco.

These are not the hard line people such as the (unintelligible) Mohammed as well as Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri. These are low level people who are now taking up the (unintelligible) to fight the good fight for al Qaeda. So, I think my analysis was still on target.

COLLINS: So, what we're saying is the upper level has definitely been as you say incapacitated but the lower level is organized.

KUSHNER: Oh, absolutely, and they reinvented themselves right after 9/11. That's the danger of the new form of terrorism. It's not the structured organization like the PLO was 20, 25, 30 years ago.

It's a very fluid, self-changing organization which continues to expand and change its M.O. Unfortunately for us we don't know what that new M.O. will be. We know it's the old one. That's why we recognize it in terms of what happened in Saudi Arabia and what happened in Morocco.

COLLINS: Kelly McCann, do you expect that al Qaeda has more attacks planned abroad or at home?

MCCANN: Well certainly if the week before last was any indication, the new spokesman (unintelligible) of course had said we're now well behind them in the intelligence war and that they've had a new face and they've got new cover, security, et cetera, and then followed of course by the bombing in Riyadh and then now Morocco.

The bottom line is, is that there is not shortage, Heidi, of willing participants. They can recruit at will and some have said that in fact the hard-liners that Harvey was just talking about that have to sign the oath of allegiance to bin Laden aren't the ones that are now currently undertaking these kind of attacks, in fact, their move to leadership now and that they are in large part new people or freelancers that are being pressed into service, so it becomes a little bit confused.

COLLINS: And, Kelly, an interesting piece in the "Washington Times" today calling for a nationwide alert on truck bombs. Is this in response to Riyadh and Morocco?

MCCANN: It's referencing a State Department alert, Heidi, that was issued by then and it was general, not specific, but basically the kind of coordinated, simultaneous attacks that we did see in Saudi and then again in Morocco where initially there's a long period of surveillance that's very, very thorough and then the actual point of the attack is conducted with either small arms fire at the crisis point where they breach security or, in fact, by a ramming vehicle that would ram the way open for an explosive laden vehicle to go inside and detonate.

So, I think that they've put people on notice to look out for missing trucks, for people who are renting self-storage facilities for containers that would mix different kinds of elements that could be used for explosive purposes, delivery trucks that are delivering things to self-storage or other strange point of deliveries. I think it's a preemptive measure.

COLLINS: Where do the weaknesses remain, Harvey?

KUSHNER: The weaknesses remain with the element of surprise. We certainly don't have that on our side. The terrorist just has to be right once. We have to be right 100 percent of the time. Another weakness is interagency communications, as Kelly mentioned before.

This needs to be ratcheted up. We need better cooperation between our law enforcement on the federal and local level and we can't assume that the local law enforcement is going to pick up the ball and continue to do what they have to do without the funding.

You know this tabletop exercise was good but 50,000 law enforcement across the United States didn't partake in it, and these are the ones that are going to have to be reached if we're going to put a dent into stopping something before it happens.

COLLINS: So, is that your assessment then of what is next for homeland security, we have to work on the funding?

KUSHNER: Oh, absolutely. You know talk is good. Training is good. But if you don't get first line responders, local law enforcement equipment or you give them the overtime money, all of this can't take place. We can't just keep it on a very high level and one that we see on television and where a few people get it.

It has to be across the board for law enforcement and otherwise law enforcement is going to suffer, not only in protecting us against terrorists, but when we divert our energy for terrorism we stop other law enforcement functions which are now beginning to suffer.

COLLINS: Kelly, do you agree with that?

MCCANN: I do. I think there's always going to be work to do and the only thing I'd add to that is, is that I'm not sure there's ever going to be anywhere a terror free state. In other words, the job is so gigantic to do that, to guarantee that there could not be an attack, I don't think that you can do it.

People have to understand that it's an enormous task to try to seal borders, to try to make sure that two or three men with a high level of intent can't get through with something as simple as automatic weapons and go into a mall or something else.

So, as long as we understand that the most significant events, the ones that would have a big footprint can be stopped but there still will be some that inevitably will get through I think we'll all rest a little bit easier, Heidi.

COLLINS: CNN Security Analyst J. Kelly McCann and Harvey Kushner, author of the "Encyclopedia of Terrorism" great discussion and we appreciate your time both of you gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 17, 2003 - 16:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: As U.S. officials prepare for the possibility of renewed terrorist attacks on American soil they're also confronting the reality that al Qaeda and other terrorist groups could strike overseas targets as well.
Here to talk more about that our CNN Security Analyst J. Kelly McCann, and Harvey Kushner author of the "Encyclopedia of Terrorism." Welcome to you both. If there was another attack, how prepared is the U.S., Harvey?

HARVEY KUSHNER, AUTHOR, "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF TERRORISM": Well, we're certainly better prepared than we were before 9/11 but, you know, you can never be completely prepared, Heidi. There are certain factors that happen and in all these tabletop exercises and drills, training is good, but you know terrorists always have that edge. They always have the element of surprise. But if I had to rate it, it was certainly a B-plus. Before 9/11 we were caught with our pants down.

COLLINS: Kelly McCann how do you think the U.S. fared in this terrorism exercise?

J. KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Heidi. Well, I think we did well. I think of course interagency communications can always be better than it is and, of course, logistics. Logistics is a huge concern in an event like this. For example, what we just saw in the package that Jeanne Meserve had was just the issues about where to put all the people that become casualties, evacuation questions.

In other words, do we evacuate? Do we not evacuate? And, do we inform the public and how much? Those I think were the key learning points that people walked away from on this.

COLLINS: Mr. Kushner I want to ask you quickly. Last week you were on our air and you talked a little bit about the threat of al Qaeda and you suggested that the group had been incapacitated. I'm wondering what you think now after what's happened in Saudi Arabia and Morocco if you have any reaction to that.

KUSHNER: Well, when I said that I said incapacitated in terms of the structure. What I also said was that you have freelancers. You have others who are on the periphery who can strike, and I think this is a perfect example of what happened in Saudi Arabia and possibly in Morocco.

These are not the hard line people such as the (unintelligible) Mohammed as well as Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri. These are low level people who are now taking up the (unintelligible) to fight the good fight for al Qaeda. So, I think my analysis was still on target.

COLLINS: So, what we're saying is the upper level has definitely been as you say incapacitated but the lower level is organized.

KUSHNER: Oh, absolutely, and they reinvented themselves right after 9/11. That's the danger of the new form of terrorism. It's not the structured organization like the PLO was 20, 25, 30 years ago.

It's a very fluid, self-changing organization which continues to expand and change its M.O. Unfortunately for us we don't know what that new M.O. will be. We know it's the old one. That's why we recognize it in terms of what happened in Saudi Arabia and what happened in Morocco.

COLLINS: Kelly McCann, do you expect that al Qaeda has more attacks planned abroad or at home?

MCCANN: Well certainly if the week before last was any indication, the new spokesman (unintelligible) of course had said we're now well behind them in the intelligence war and that they've had a new face and they've got new cover, security, et cetera, and then followed of course by the bombing in Riyadh and then now Morocco.

The bottom line is, is that there is not shortage, Heidi, of willing participants. They can recruit at will and some have said that in fact the hard-liners that Harvey was just talking about that have to sign the oath of allegiance to bin Laden aren't the ones that are now currently undertaking these kind of attacks, in fact, their move to leadership now and that they are in large part new people or freelancers that are being pressed into service, so it becomes a little bit confused.

COLLINS: And, Kelly, an interesting piece in the "Washington Times" today calling for a nationwide alert on truck bombs. Is this in response to Riyadh and Morocco?

MCCANN: It's referencing a State Department alert, Heidi, that was issued by then and it was general, not specific, but basically the kind of coordinated, simultaneous attacks that we did see in Saudi and then again in Morocco where initially there's a long period of surveillance that's very, very thorough and then the actual point of the attack is conducted with either small arms fire at the crisis point where they breach security or, in fact, by a ramming vehicle that would ram the way open for an explosive laden vehicle to go inside and detonate.

So, I think that they've put people on notice to look out for missing trucks, for people who are renting self-storage facilities for containers that would mix different kinds of elements that could be used for explosive purposes, delivery trucks that are delivering things to self-storage or other strange point of deliveries. I think it's a preemptive measure.

COLLINS: Where do the weaknesses remain, Harvey?

KUSHNER: The weaknesses remain with the element of surprise. We certainly don't have that on our side. The terrorist just has to be right once. We have to be right 100 percent of the time. Another weakness is interagency communications, as Kelly mentioned before.

This needs to be ratcheted up. We need better cooperation between our law enforcement on the federal and local level and we can't assume that the local law enforcement is going to pick up the ball and continue to do what they have to do without the funding.

You know this tabletop exercise was good but 50,000 law enforcement across the United States didn't partake in it, and these are the ones that are going to have to be reached if we're going to put a dent into stopping something before it happens.

COLLINS: So, is that your assessment then of what is next for homeland security, we have to work on the funding?

KUSHNER: Oh, absolutely. You know talk is good. Training is good. But if you don't get first line responders, local law enforcement equipment or you give them the overtime money, all of this can't take place. We can't just keep it on a very high level and one that we see on television and where a few people get it.

It has to be across the board for law enforcement and otherwise law enforcement is going to suffer, not only in protecting us against terrorists, but when we divert our energy for terrorism we stop other law enforcement functions which are now beginning to suffer.

COLLINS: Kelly, do you agree with that?

MCCANN: I do. I think there's always going to be work to do and the only thing I'd add to that is, is that I'm not sure there's ever going to be anywhere a terror free state. In other words, the job is so gigantic to do that, to guarantee that there could not be an attack, I don't think that you can do it.

People have to understand that it's an enormous task to try to seal borders, to try to make sure that two or three men with a high level of intent can't get through with something as simple as automatic weapons and go into a mall or something else.

So, as long as we understand that the most significant events, the ones that would have a big footprint can be stopped but there still will be some that inevitably will get through I think we'll all rest a little bit easier, Heidi.

COLLINS: CNN Security Analyst J. Kelly McCann and Harvey Kushner, author of the "Encyclopedia of Terrorism" great discussion and we appreciate your time both of you gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com