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CNN Live Saturday

Are Trailers Found in Iraq Linked to Bioweapons Program?

Aired June 07, 2003 - 18:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Weapons of mass destruction, the main reason given by the Bush administration for waging war against Iraq. But so far the post-war search for WMD has been fruitless. And now "The New York Times" is reporting some intelligence experts are disputing claims that trailers found in Iraq are linked to the production of bioweapons. CNN's Chris Plante has more now from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Under increasing pressure to provide solid proof of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs eight weeks after the fall of Baghdad, the Bush administration finds itself again under attack for the way in which intelligence information related to the weapons has been handled.

In a "New York Times" article U.S. and British intelligence officials and experts question the veracity of Bush administration claims that two mobile laboratories were built by Iraq to produce deadly biological agents. "The Times" says there is disagreement among analysts as to whether the vehicles are in fact what the U.S. says they are.

Former U.N. weapons inspector David Kaye, who has seen one of the trailers, and the reports on the second, tells CNN the most likely use was for biological weapons and that virtually any other explanation for the labs "didn't past the laugh test".

And questions about the existence of chemical weapons appear to have been raised by a Defense intelligence agency document from September 2002, stating, there is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons.

The admiral in charge of the DIA said Friday that he never had doubts that both and chemical and biological programs existed. He nevertheless conceded the intelligence lack clarity.

VICE ADM. LOWELL JACOBY, DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: What we're saying is that as of 2002, in September, we could not reliably pin down, for somebody who is doing contingency planning, specific facilities, locations, or production that was underway.

PLANTE: But, experts say, it is common for intelligence to lack clarity.

ROBERT ALVAREZ, INST. FOR POLICY STUDIES: Intelligence, basically, is not what you see in movies. It isn't James Bond. It isn't like they know everything that's going on at all times. Intelligence is, in effect, an art. And it involves really trying to delve into the areas that you don't know and trying to make some judgments.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLANTE: And, Andrea, until more convincing evidence can be presented to the public, it is likely that the pressure will continue to increase, even as the number of inspectors, both U.N. and U.S., on the ground in Iraq continues to grow in an effort to prove that their reason for going to war in the first place was valid -- Andrea.

KOPPEL: We know, Chris, from "The New York Times" piece today, that the sources that Judith Miller and her colleagues spoke with, American and British analysts, intelligence analysts, were saying that they felt that this was not -- that they were not used, these labs were not used to produce bioweapons. But the president pretty much said that they were. So, which is it?

PLANTE: Well, I spoke to a senior CIA official, just a short time ago, as a matter of fact. They stand by their story. They say that anyone who criticizes the intelligence on this simply hasn't had access to all the intelligence.

They insist that they had intelligence from one of the people involved in the design of these mobile laboratories, before the war began. And that man was asked to identify these laboratories from photographs after the photographs were made available. And they did it like a police line up, showing him a series of vehicles, which included, but not exclusively, the mobile biological weapons labs. They insist that he picked them easily out of the line up.

They're convinced that they're right. They're sticking by their story and they disagree with "The New York Times" conclusions.

KOPPEL: What were the other potential uses for these mobile labs? Other than as some of the allegations are, that they could have been used to produce bioweapons. They're supposed to be pretty expensive to put together. What else could you use them for, Chris.

PLANTE: Well, in theory you can use facilities like this for creating agricultural chemicals, pesticides, even hydrogen. One of the theories put forward was hydrogen for meteorological balloons, for weather balloons, effectively.

But David Kaye, former weapons inspector for the United Nations, today pretty much shot that theory down saying that the meteorological balloon theory, in particular, was silly. And said that most of the other theories didn't pass the "laugh test", Andrea.

KOPPEL: Chris, do you think there is a kind of situation in which you could have 50 intelligence analysts look at the intel that's out there, and come up with 40 different explanations behind it. Or at least, you know, a number of different explanations? PLANTE: Well, as you know, intelligence is very often like this, very squishy, very soft, subject to interpretation. The art of intelligence, essentially, involves putting together pieces of information and trying to come to a conclusion.

Very rarely, as one of our experts in the piece a few minutes ago said, very rarely do you actually have a smoking gun that is 100 percent that convinces everyone all the time. And very often you are going to find people that disagree with just about any conclusion that you come to.

So, certainly, the Pentagon is hoping that they'll come across more convincing evidence. But right now this is all they have.

KOPPEL: Are they going to come public with it, Chris?

PLANTE: Well, there is a more complete intelligence report on the vehicles and on some of the other issues that the Pentagon is now discussing making public. We were hoping they were going to do that today. That's not the case. It may become the case on Monday, when they make more of this public. But the CIA, regarding the mobile laboratories, the CIA has actually published what is effectively their report of a public version of their report. And it's available on their web site at CIA.gov, if anybody wants to go read it. It's full of some interesting information, at least.

KOPPEL: I'm sure people will be logging on. Chris Plante at the Pentagon, thanks so much.

PLANTE: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired June 7, 2003 - 18:14   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Weapons of mass destruction, the main reason given by the Bush administration for waging war against Iraq. But so far the post-war search for WMD has been fruitless. And now "The New York Times" is reporting some intelligence experts are disputing claims that trailers found in Iraq are linked to the production of bioweapons. CNN's Chris Plante has more now from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Under increasing pressure to provide solid proof of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs eight weeks after the fall of Baghdad, the Bush administration finds itself again under attack for the way in which intelligence information related to the weapons has been handled.

In a "New York Times" article U.S. and British intelligence officials and experts question the veracity of Bush administration claims that two mobile laboratories were built by Iraq to produce deadly biological agents. "The Times" says there is disagreement among analysts as to whether the vehicles are in fact what the U.S. says they are.

Former U.N. weapons inspector David Kaye, who has seen one of the trailers, and the reports on the second, tells CNN the most likely use was for biological weapons and that virtually any other explanation for the labs "didn't past the laugh test".

And questions about the existence of chemical weapons appear to have been raised by a Defense intelligence agency document from September 2002, stating, there is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons.

The admiral in charge of the DIA said Friday that he never had doubts that both and chemical and biological programs existed. He nevertheless conceded the intelligence lack clarity.

VICE ADM. LOWELL JACOBY, DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: What we're saying is that as of 2002, in September, we could not reliably pin down, for somebody who is doing contingency planning, specific facilities, locations, or production that was underway.

PLANTE: But, experts say, it is common for intelligence to lack clarity.

ROBERT ALVAREZ, INST. FOR POLICY STUDIES: Intelligence, basically, is not what you see in movies. It isn't James Bond. It isn't like they know everything that's going on at all times. Intelligence is, in effect, an art. And it involves really trying to delve into the areas that you don't know and trying to make some judgments.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLANTE: And, Andrea, until more convincing evidence can be presented to the public, it is likely that the pressure will continue to increase, even as the number of inspectors, both U.N. and U.S., on the ground in Iraq continues to grow in an effort to prove that their reason for going to war in the first place was valid -- Andrea.

KOPPEL: We know, Chris, from "The New York Times" piece today, that the sources that Judith Miller and her colleagues spoke with, American and British analysts, intelligence analysts, were saying that they felt that this was not -- that they were not used, these labs were not used to produce bioweapons. But the president pretty much said that they were. So, which is it?

PLANTE: Well, I spoke to a senior CIA official, just a short time ago, as a matter of fact. They stand by their story. They say that anyone who criticizes the intelligence on this simply hasn't had access to all the intelligence.

They insist that they had intelligence from one of the people involved in the design of these mobile laboratories, before the war began. And that man was asked to identify these laboratories from photographs after the photographs were made available. And they did it like a police line up, showing him a series of vehicles, which included, but not exclusively, the mobile biological weapons labs. They insist that he picked them easily out of the line up.

They're convinced that they're right. They're sticking by their story and they disagree with "The New York Times" conclusions.

KOPPEL: What were the other potential uses for these mobile labs? Other than as some of the allegations are, that they could have been used to produce bioweapons. They're supposed to be pretty expensive to put together. What else could you use them for, Chris.

PLANTE: Well, in theory you can use facilities like this for creating agricultural chemicals, pesticides, even hydrogen. One of the theories put forward was hydrogen for meteorological balloons, for weather balloons, effectively.

But David Kaye, former weapons inspector for the United Nations, today pretty much shot that theory down saying that the meteorological balloon theory, in particular, was silly. And said that most of the other theories didn't pass the "laugh test", Andrea.

KOPPEL: Chris, do you think there is a kind of situation in which you could have 50 intelligence analysts look at the intel that's out there, and come up with 40 different explanations behind it. Or at least, you know, a number of different explanations? PLANTE: Well, as you know, intelligence is very often like this, very squishy, very soft, subject to interpretation. The art of intelligence, essentially, involves putting together pieces of information and trying to come to a conclusion.

Very rarely, as one of our experts in the piece a few minutes ago said, very rarely do you actually have a smoking gun that is 100 percent that convinces everyone all the time. And very often you are going to find people that disagree with just about any conclusion that you come to.

So, certainly, the Pentagon is hoping that they'll come across more convincing evidence. But right now this is all they have.

KOPPEL: Are they going to come public with it, Chris?

PLANTE: Well, there is a more complete intelligence report on the vehicles and on some of the other issues that the Pentagon is now discussing making public. We were hoping they were going to do that today. That's not the case. It may become the case on Monday, when they make more of this public. But the CIA, regarding the mobile laboratories, the CIA has actually published what is effectively their report of a public version of their report. And it's available on their web site at CIA.gov, if anybody wants to go read it. It's full of some interesting information, at least.

KOPPEL: I'm sure people will be logging on. Chris Plante at the Pentagon, thanks so much.

PLANTE: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com