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CNN Live Saturday
Interview With Joshua Hammer
Aired June 14, 2003 - 14:15 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We continue our coverage of efforts to end bloodshed in the Middle East. We turn to "Newsweek" Jerusalem bureau chief Joshua Hammer. He also authored a book about the current intifadah called "A Season in Bethlehem," on holy war in a sacred place, and our Kelly Wallace is also standing by live from Gaza. Good to see both of you.
Joshua, let me begin with you, is there any higher up authority on either side who believes that this road map to peace really has a chance?
JOSHUA HAMMER, NEWSWEEK: I don't think anybody has ruled it out, yet. There's always a possibility. The Palestinian Authority is still talking about getting a cease-fire from Hamas. Talks are still going on. There's obviously a lot of pressure still being exerted upon Ariel Sharon and his government by the U.S. Bush administration to stop these targeted killings of Hamas militants. So certainly, things look bleak, but I think there's still considerable effort going on on both sides to try to get this thing to work.
WHITFIELD: Does it not sound like the same song over and over again, Hamas is saying that publicly there will be no cease-fire, but privately there is some potential of a cease-fire, and if only a deal could be struck that Israeli helicopter attacks would cease that perhaps Hamas would stop doing what it's doing?
HAMMER: Well, it's a question of who is going to move first. It's always been this way for the last nearly three years of violence. Somebody has got to take the initiative. And you end up with these periodic lulls, and then the lulls end violently with one side or the other initiating an attack, so hopefully this time around somebody will take the initiative, the other will follow suit, and then you can begin implementing the road map with these U.S. monitors on the ground closely observing the situation, which is different from what's happened in the past. We never had this kind of extensive monitoring situation in place.
I believe that John Wolf is due to arrive today or may have already arrived. So I don't rule out the possibility of something happening. But it's a small chance of success.
WHITFIELD: And Kelly, let me bring you into this, and the real challenge of trying to report this with both sides pointing the finger, and then of course you have civilians who seem on both sides to be losing hope that there really could potentially be any progress made to bring the two sides together? Is that what you are finding? KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, no question, we've been in the Gaza Strip all week and we have found a lot of anger on the streets, after the Israeli air strikes. In fact, people pointing to the fact that President Bush came out and condemned Wednesday's suicide bus bombing in Jerusalem, but that he never came out, they said, condemned the attacks on Thursday which left the wife and a one- year-old daughter of a Hamas military leader dead.
So a lot of anger on the streets. People here saying that Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister, is not interested in the road map. But on the streets of Israel you hear concerns as well, you hear frustration from people who say that the Palestinian Authority in their eyes has not yet cracked down on groups like Hamas. They don't believe a cease-fire in the end will be a long term solution, so you have got a lot of frustration from both sides, Fredricka, and a lot of people looked at the smiles at the Aqaba, Jordan summit with a lot of skepticism. Because they have seen this before. And so they were skeptical that perhaps there could be peace or there could be progress here. Many people saying they certainly expected something like this could happen -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And so, Kelly, now with your advantage of covering both the White House and now the Middle East crisis, the White House is making it very clear publicly that it wants to try to involve Arab nation leaders as much as possible, but at the same time, you are noticing that the Palestinians there are not feeling any more trust of the White House, given the fact that, as you described, there was a real conflict in the Bush reaction to the recent violence this week alone.
WALLACE: But you bring up a great point there, Fredricka. And that is the impact of Arab leaders. No doubt the Bush administration is trying to press the Arab leaders to put pressure on groups like Hamas, and at that summit last week you had the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak condemning terrorism. He said no matter what the motivation, that was looked at in this region in a big way, because groups like Hamas say they are not terrorists, they are fighting for the Palestinian cause, and we understand behind the scenes the Egyptians are playing a big role. They are trying to work with the Palestinians, and trying to work with groups like Hamas.
There is a sense, Fredricka, that Hamas was even willing possibly to be very close to agreeing to some type of cease-fire, but then the Israeli air strikes took place after that. The Israelis will say no way, Hamas was never willing to agree to a cease-fire, never willing to follow through with this road map. And so that's why they say the Israelis need to take this action to try and put pressure on the group; ultimately to allow the prime minister to have some chance of success with groups like Hamas.
WHITFIELD: And Joshua, you have reminded us that Assistant Secretary of State John Wolf just may be on the ground there now. Secretary of State Colin Powell heading to the region later on after the week. What does Powell need to say and how does the U.S. in any way need to deliver on any promises made? HAMMER: Well, I really do think it's that we have had enough talk. I mean, for the last three years, there's been talk. Powell has come in, Tenet has come in, Zinni has come in, Bush has come in, it is all talk. I mean, from the perception of the Palestinians, there has been no concrete pressure put on the government of Israel, put on Ariel Sharon to take concrete steps.
I mean, the Palestinians that I have talked to say they want to see action. They want to see relentless pressure placed on the government of Ariel Sharon to do things such as stop the targeted killings, such as make a serious effort to implement the road map by removing settlements. I mean, you saw this very brief activity by Ariel Sharon, very symbolic to remove a couple of illegal outposts, and it went nowhere, which basically confirmed the suspicions of the Palestinians that Sharon wasn't interested in implementing the road map.
At the same time, the Americans have to get something going on the Palestinian side. They have to work as hard as they can to empower the Palestinian security forces. This has to be a double effort, an effort pressure both on the Palestinians and the Israelis, and not just words anymore.
WHITFIELD: All right, Joshua Hammer of "Newsweek" and CNN's Kelly Wallace, thanks very much, two journalist giving your perspective on coverage of the Middle East crisis. Thanks very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 14, 2003 - 14:15 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We continue our coverage of efforts to end bloodshed in the Middle East. We turn to "Newsweek" Jerusalem bureau chief Joshua Hammer. He also authored a book about the current intifadah called "A Season in Bethlehem," on holy war in a sacred place, and our Kelly Wallace is also standing by live from Gaza. Good to see both of you.
Joshua, let me begin with you, is there any higher up authority on either side who believes that this road map to peace really has a chance?
JOSHUA HAMMER, NEWSWEEK: I don't think anybody has ruled it out, yet. There's always a possibility. The Palestinian Authority is still talking about getting a cease-fire from Hamas. Talks are still going on. There's obviously a lot of pressure still being exerted upon Ariel Sharon and his government by the U.S. Bush administration to stop these targeted killings of Hamas militants. So certainly, things look bleak, but I think there's still considerable effort going on on both sides to try to get this thing to work.
WHITFIELD: Does it not sound like the same song over and over again, Hamas is saying that publicly there will be no cease-fire, but privately there is some potential of a cease-fire, and if only a deal could be struck that Israeli helicopter attacks would cease that perhaps Hamas would stop doing what it's doing?
HAMMER: Well, it's a question of who is going to move first. It's always been this way for the last nearly three years of violence. Somebody has got to take the initiative. And you end up with these periodic lulls, and then the lulls end violently with one side or the other initiating an attack, so hopefully this time around somebody will take the initiative, the other will follow suit, and then you can begin implementing the road map with these U.S. monitors on the ground closely observing the situation, which is different from what's happened in the past. We never had this kind of extensive monitoring situation in place.
I believe that John Wolf is due to arrive today or may have already arrived. So I don't rule out the possibility of something happening. But it's a small chance of success.
WHITFIELD: And Kelly, let me bring you into this, and the real challenge of trying to report this with both sides pointing the finger, and then of course you have civilians who seem on both sides to be losing hope that there really could potentially be any progress made to bring the two sides together? Is that what you are finding? KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, no question, we've been in the Gaza Strip all week and we have found a lot of anger on the streets, after the Israeli air strikes. In fact, people pointing to the fact that President Bush came out and condemned Wednesday's suicide bus bombing in Jerusalem, but that he never came out, they said, condemned the attacks on Thursday which left the wife and a one- year-old daughter of a Hamas military leader dead.
So a lot of anger on the streets. People here saying that Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister, is not interested in the road map. But on the streets of Israel you hear concerns as well, you hear frustration from people who say that the Palestinian Authority in their eyes has not yet cracked down on groups like Hamas. They don't believe a cease-fire in the end will be a long term solution, so you have got a lot of frustration from both sides, Fredricka, and a lot of people looked at the smiles at the Aqaba, Jordan summit with a lot of skepticism. Because they have seen this before. And so they were skeptical that perhaps there could be peace or there could be progress here. Many people saying they certainly expected something like this could happen -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And so, Kelly, now with your advantage of covering both the White House and now the Middle East crisis, the White House is making it very clear publicly that it wants to try to involve Arab nation leaders as much as possible, but at the same time, you are noticing that the Palestinians there are not feeling any more trust of the White House, given the fact that, as you described, there was a real conflict in the Bush reaction to the recent violence this week alone.
WALLACE: But you bring up a great point there, Fredricka. And that is the impact of Arab leaders. No doubt the Bush administration is trying to press the Arab leaders to put pressure on groups like Hamas, and at that summit last week you had the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak condemning terrorism. He said no matter what the motivation, that was looked at in this region in a big way, because groups like Hamas say they are not terrorists, they are fighting for the Palestinian cause, and we understand behind the scenes the Egyptians are playing a big role. They are trying to work with the Palestinians, and trying to work with groups like Hamas.
There is a sense, Fredricka, that Hamas was even willing possibly to be very close to agreeing to some type of cease-fire, but then the Israeli air strikes took place after that. The Israelis will say no way, Hamas was never willing to agree to a cease-fire, never willing to follow through with this road map. And so that's why they say the Israelis need to take this action to try and put pressure on the group; ultimately to allow the prime minister to have some chance of success with groups like Hamas.
WHITFIELD: And Joshua, you have reminded us that Assistant Secretary of State John Wolf just may be on the ground there now. Secretary of State Colin Powell heading to the region later on after the week. What does Powell need to say and how does the U.S. in any way need to deliver on any promises made? HAMMER: Well, I really do think it's that we have had enough talk. I mean, for the last three years, there's been talk. Powell has come in, Tenet has come in, Zinni has come in, Bush has come in, it is all talk. I mean, from the perception of the Palestinians, there has been no concrete pressure put on the government of Israel, put on Ariel Sharon to take concrete steps.
I mean, the Palestinians that I have talked to say they want to see action. They want to see relentless pressure placed on the government of Ariel Sharon to do things such as stop the targeted killings, such as make a serious effort to implement the road map by removing settlements. I mean, you saw this very brief activity by Ariel Sharon, very symbolic to remove a couple of illegal outposts, and it went nowhere, which basically confirmed the suspicions of the Palestinians that Sharon wasn't interested in implementing the road map.
At the same time, the Americans have to get something going on the Palestinian side. They have to work as hard as they can to empower the Palestinian security forces. This has to be a double effort, an effort pressure both on the Palestinians and the Israelis, and not just words anymore.
WHITFIELD: All right, Joshua Hammer of "Newsweek" and CNN's Kelly Wallace, thanks very much, two journalist giving your perspective on coverage of the Middle East crisis. Thanks very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
