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CNN Live Saturday
Is the Role of Unions Decreasing?
Aired August 30, 2003 - 12:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: While workers in New Haven spend Labor Day weekend on the picket line, other Americans are celebrating with parades, picnics and a break from the daily grind.
Triple A estimates that 33 million people traveling this weekend to take full advantage of summer's last gasp. The number of travelers remains robust, despite near record prices at the gas pumps this season.
Well, Labor Day has come to symbolize the end of the summer vacation season. The holiday's real purpose, of course, is to honor the working men and women of organized labor.
But just 13 percent of workers belong to unions nowadays, down from 35 percent during the peak days in the 1960s. Does that make unions a relic in the 21st century?
Let's talk with our guests about the state of the unions. Ron Blackwell is director of corporate affairs for the AFL-CIO. Pat Cleary is a senior vice president for the National Association of Manufacturers. They're both joining us live from Washington.
Well, good to see you both of you and happy holiday weekend.
RON BLACKWELL, DIRECTOR OF CORPORATE AFFAIRS, AFL-CIO: Thank you.
PAT CLEARLY, SVP, NATIONAL ASSOC. OF MANUFACTURERS: Good to be here.
WHITFIELD: Well, Ron, let me begin with you. What is the sole purpose of the unions today?
BLACKWELL: The union purpose is the same as it's been historically. We -- our historical purpose to allow a certain dignity of workers at work, to allow some fair sharing of the value added in our economy and to be a voice in our nation's politics and public affairs.
Today, workers need unions more than any time at least since the 1920s and perhaps the 1890s.
WHITFIELD: Well, if workers need unions more, then why is it that unions only represent about 13 percent of the American work force?
BLACKWELL: Well, there's -- that's 16 million workers, by the way. It's the largest labor movement in the world in absolute numbers.
But there's 40 million workers who say they would join a union tomorrow if they had the opportunity. And of course, if we had only half of the people had the opportunity to join a union, then we we'd be at the same level of density as we were at our historical peak.
WHITFIELD: Well, Pat, let me bring you into this. Pat, it does seem like that's a waning interest in terms of the American worker out there to be a part of a union. Why is that? Is it that Americans aren't convinced that unions have the kind of power that they once did with large corporations and companies anymore?
CLEARY: Hard to say. I should say, you know, Ron and I probably agree more than disagree on a lot of things this Labor Day.
And first, you know no real strong democracy exists without a strong labor movement. You know, there isn't one in Cuba or in Vietnam or in China. So clearly, it's important to society.
But I think I would agree with John Sweeney, the AFL president. He said last February that they're sort of on the brink of being irrelevant.
And I think part of that reason is because they've gone from being a labor movement to a political movement. I think to a certain degree, taken their eye off the ball. You know, spent $140 million over the last two election cycles on politics.
You know, when Sweeney was elected in '94, he promised to take back the House for the Democrats. I think he's been sort of partisan in that regard. He promised a million new members in AFL, by the way, which he's fallen far short of. It's gone in the other direction.
And I think in large part, they've taken their eye off the ball. I think they've become much more focused on politics than on organizing. Clearly, the largest -- the union that's hired the most amount of organizers, the carpenters, left the AFL for exactly that reason.
WHITFIELD: OK.
CLEARY: That they've gotten unfocused, if you will.
WHITFIELD: Ron, is that the case? Are they less focused? Have these unions become a bit too political?
BLACKWELL: Absolutely not. What we're concerned with is improving the lives of working Americans.
The union worker earns 20 percent more than a nonunion worker doing the same job. They earn 30 percent more when you consider that they have -- more likely to have health care coverage for their family and have pension for their retirement security.
WHITFIELD: Well, Ron...
BLACKWELL: It's highest advantage of being in a union, throughout the developed world, and that's our core mission.
WHITFIELD: It does seem like many unions, including the AFL-CIO, have some fear that perhaps unions may soon become obsolete. Is that, in part, the reason why the AFL-CIO, in particular, is trying to launch a new movement of getting nonunion workers involved? They're calling that movement Working America.
BLACKWELL: We're not thinking we're going to be obsolescent. As I said before, workers need and want unions more now than they ever have. The question is, though, to serve their interest, we need to become stronger and to become stronger, we need to grow.
And the initiative that you mentioned is reaching out to many of the, as I said, 40 million workers who would join a union tomorrow, and giving them that opportunity.
WHITFIELD: Pat, do you see that as a last ditch effort, as unions trying desperately to try to get any and all workers, nonunion alike, involved in supporting the unions?
CLEARY: Well, I've been around the AFL in one way or around for about the last 23 years and this is, in my view, when I read about it the latest five-year plan, sort of the Soviet five-year plan. This plan was first hatched in the early '80s by a, you know, an internal study that the AFL did on the future of workers and their unions.
But I think, you know, you see what an organization's priorities are by where they put their money. They put $140 million into politics in the last two elections. They aren't putting anything close to that into organizing.
WHITFIELD: OK.
CLEARY: And I agree with Ron. They have to organize. They have to grow if they're going to survive but clearly, that's not their focus. That's not where they're putting their money, and it's certainly not a priority.
BLACKWELL: I want to make...
WHITFIELD: All right. Quickly, the last word in five seconds or less. We're running out of time.
BLACKWELL: Make it clear. It's not the lack of worker interest. It's employer opposition to unions and it's the most anti-union...
CLEARY: That's not.
BLACKWELL: ... administration in office.
WHITFIELD: Five seconds are up. Ron Blackwell, Pat Cleary, thanks very much, both of you, for joining us this Labor Day weekend.
CLEARY: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Gentlemen, have a good holiday. BLACKWELL: You, too.
CLEARY: Thanks. You, too.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 30, 2003 - 12:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: While workers in New Haven spend Labor Day weekend on the picket line, other Americans are celebrating with parades, picnics and a break from the daily grind.
Triple A estimates that 33 million people traveling this weekend to take full advantage of summer's last gasp. The number of travelers remains robust, despite near record prices at the gas pumps this season.
Well, Labor Day has come to symbolize the end of the summer vacation season. The holiday's real purpose, of course, is to honor the working men and women of organized labor.
But just 13 percent of workers belong to unions nowadays, down from 35 percent during the peak days in the 1960s. Does that make unions a relic in the 21st century?
Let's talk with our guests about the state of the unions. Ron Blackwell is director of corporate affairs for the AFL-CIO. Pat Cleary is a senior vice president for the National Association of Manufacturers. They're both joining us live from Washington.
Well, good to see you both of you and happy holiday weekend.
RON BLACKWELL, DIRECTOR OF CORPORATE AFFAIRS, AFL-CIO: Thank you.
PAT CLEARLY, SVP, NATIONAL ASSOC. OF MANUFACTURERS: Good to be here.
WHITFIELD: Well, Ron, let me begin with you. What is the sole purpose of the unions today?
BLACKWELL: The union purpose is the same as it's been historically. We -- our historical purpose to allow a certain dignity of workers at work, to allow some fair sharing of the value added in our economy and to be a voice in our nation's politics and public affairs.
Today, workers need unions more than any time at least since the 1920s and perhaps the 1890s.
WHITFIELD: Well, if workers need unions more, then why is it that unions only represent about 13 percent of the American work force?
BLACKWELL: Well, there's -- that's 16 million workers, by the way. It's the largest labor movement in the world in absolute numbers.
But there's 40 million workers who say they would join a union tomorrow if they had the opportunity. And of course, if we had only half of the people had the opportunity to join a union, then we we'd be at the same level of density as we were at our historical peak.
WHITFIELD: Well, Pat, let me bring you into this. Pat, it does seem like that's a waning interest in terms of the American worker out there to be a part of a union. Why is that? Is it that Americans aren't convinced that unions have the kind of power that they once did with large corporations and companies anymore?
CLEARY: Hard to say. I should say, you know, Ron and I probably agree more than disagree on a lot of things this Labor Day.
And first, you know no real strong democracy exists without a strong labor movement. You know, there isn't one in Cuba or in Vietnam or in China. So clearly, it's important to society.
But I think I would agree with John Sweeney, the AFL president. He said last February that they're sort of on the brink of being irrelevant.
And I think part of that reason is because they've gone from being a labor movement to a political movement. I think to a certain degree, taken their eye off the ball. You know, spent $140 million over the last two election cycles on politics.
You know, when Sweeney was elected in '94, he promised to take back the House for the Democrats. I think he's been sort of partisan in that regard. He promised a million new members in AFL, by the way, which he's fallen far short of. It's gone in the other direction.
And I think in large part, they've taken their eye off the ball. I think they've become much more focused on politics than on organizing. Clearly, the largest -- the union that's hired the most amount of organizers, the carpenters, left the AFL for exactly that reason.
WHITFIELD: OK.
CLEARY: That they've gotten unfocused, if you will.
WHITFIELD: Ron, is that the case? Are they less focused? Have these unions become a bit too political?
BLACKWELL: Absolutely not. What we're concerned with is improving the lives of working Americans.
The union worker earns 20 percent more than a nonunion worker doing the same job. They earn 30 percent more when you consider that they have -- more likely to have health care coverage for their family and have pension for their retirement security.
WHITFIELD: Well, Ron...
BLACKWELL: It's highest advantage of being in a union, throughout the developed world, and that's our core mission.
WHITFIELD: It does seem like many unions, including the AFL-CIO, have some fear that perhaps unions may soon become obsolete. Is that, in part, the reason why the AFL-CIO, in particular, is trying to launch a new movement of getting nonunion workers involved? They're calling that movement Working America.
BLACKWELL: We're not thinking we're going to be obsolescent. As I said before, workers need and want unions more now than they ever have. The question is, though, to serve their interest, we need to become stronger and to become stronger, we need to grow.
And the initiative that you mentioned is reaching out to many of the, as I said, 40 million workers who would join a union tomorrow, and giving them that opportunity.
WHITFIELD: Pat, do you see that as a last ditch effort, as unions trying desperately to try to get any and all workers, nonunion alike, involved in supporting the unions?
CLEARY: Well, I've been around the AFL in one way or around for about the last 23 years and this is, in my view, when I read about it the latest five-year plan, sort of the Soviet five-year plan. This plan was first hatched in the early '80s by a, you know, an internal study that the AFL did on the future of workers and their unions.
But I think, you know, you see what an organization's priorities are by where they put their money. They put $140 million into politics in the last two elections. They aren't putting anything close to that into organizing.
WHITFIELD: OK.
CLEARY: And I agree with Ron. They have to organize. They have to grow if they're going to survive but clearly, that's not their focus. That's not where they're putting their money, and it's certainly not a priority.
BLACKWELL: I want to make...
WHITFIELD: All right. Quickly, the last word in five seconds or less. We're running out of time.
BLACKWELL: Make it clear. It's not the lack of worker interest. It's employer opposition to unions and it's the most anti-union...
CLEARY: That's not.
BLACKWELL: ... administration in office.
WHITFIELD: Five seconds are up. Ron Blackwell, Pat Cleary, thanks very much, both of you, for joining us this Labor Day weekend.
CLEARY: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Gentlemen, have a good holiday. BLACKWELL: You, too.
CLEARY: Thanks. You, too.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
