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Bombing in Najaf: Examining the Aftermath

Aired August 30, 2003 - 14:03   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, turning now to developments in Iraq, the investigation in the deadly mosque bombing in Najaf has turned up possible links to al Qaeda. But no matter what investigators find in their probe of the mosque attack, many Iraqis are still blaming the U.S. Thousands of demonstrators hit the streets today in Baghdad, unhappy about their lack of safety and their need for various services.
CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us now from the White House with the Bush administration's response to the latest developments there -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, Fredricka, there's no response from the White House to the detention, the arrest of at least you said two Pakistanis who may have ties to al Qaeda, and then as many as 10 other people who have been detained. But the U.S. does firmly believe that these attacks are directed specifically at trying to block U.S. efforts to bring peace and democracy to the country.

It does seem that the targets are continuing to expand now beyond U.S. soldiers, beyond international aid workers to target Iraqis, like the cleric that was killed in yesterday's bombings. Iraqis who are helping the United States, who are cooperating. Obviously this tactic has had a chilling effect on such cooperation.

President Bush released a statement yesterday, a paper statement condemning the attack as a vicious act of terrorism, saying that it demonstrates the cruelty and desperation of the enemies of the Iraqi people. Mr. Bush said that the forces of terror must and will be defeated, and he promised U.S. help to that end in the investigation. FBI investigators are going to helping dig through the rubble to find clues -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Kathleen, on now to a focus on the Middle East, the latest violence there, particularly involving the Israeli killing of Hamas members. Any reaction coming from the White House? There are many critics who are saying, "What road map to peace?"

KOCH: The White House would not respond directly to this attack, but there have been several of them since the August 19 bus bombing, these retaliatory targeted attacks. And the U.S. response has pretty much been the same, not to condemn them but to say that Israel does have every right to defend itself, to respond, but it must keep in it mind the consequences of those actions and the effect that they will have of what remains of the road map to peace, though it is in tatters, I think one can easily say.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks very much, Kathleen Koch. The Bush administration's response to troubles in both regions of the Middle East and on in Iraq.

Now more from the scene in Najaf, Iraq. CNN's Ben Wedeman has been following developments after the deadly attack there -- Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Yes. At this point, Fredricka, the death toll from that attack officially stands at 125 dead, as well as more than 500 wounded. Now the latest development is that the Iraqi police here in Najaf are apparently detaining two men carrying Pakistani passports that they believe had some role in the bombing and the police officers say may have links to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.

No further confirmation on that. However, what is apparent though is that this bomb is beginning to create cracks in the American attempts to create something that would approximate stability here. One of the members of the U.S.-appointed governing council announced today he was suspending his membership in that council.

This man, Dr. Mohammed Bahad al-Alum (ph), a prominent Shiite politician, said he was suspending his membership in that council because that council itself had proved ineffectual in convincing the coalition and the American forces to take a more robust attitude toward reestablishing law and order in the chaotic period following the fall of Saddam Hussein.

So, as I said, that is one serious crack in this attempt to bring order to Iraq. The governing council was appointed in July by the chief U.S. administrator here, L. Paul Bremer. And the hopes was that this would put an Iraqi face on the coalition. And it appears that part of that Iraqi face is beginning to fall off -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well Ben, let's talk about the investigation, or what kind of assistance might come in the investigation as they do try to figure out who is responsible for this bombing. Where does anyone turn to be the lead on this investigation?

WEDEMAN: Well, they are rounding up, Fredricka, a lot of people around this city, and sometimes it doesn't appear as if they are likely suspects. The main criteria for arrest at this point seems to be anybody from another Arab country, anyone who is suspicious, anyone wearing clothing that is not ordinary for the inhabitants of Najaf, they're throwing a very wide net.

Now we are hearing, of course, that they are detaining two Pakistanis that may have some role in the bombing, that may have been -- had some sort of links to al Qaeda. But clearly the investigation is little more than 24 hours old. We have seen that U.S. troops or some U.S. officers have gone to visit the Iraqi police. They went to the building where people have been detained.

They may be questioning these people, but as I said, it's still very, very early in the investigation. But you can take it for granted that U.S. investigators will be involved and heavily involved, as well -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Ben Wedeman in Najaf, thank you very much.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Thousands now in the streets in Najaf, Iraq, taken to the streets as part of a three-day mourning after yesterday's bombing in Najaf, Iraq. Some conventional wisdom now that perhaps these attackers appear not to just be going after coalition forces, but now even attacking Iraqis, including some of their leaders and humanitarian workers.

What does all of this mean for the future of Iraq? Let's turn now to CNN analyst Ken Pollack of Washington's Brookings Institution. Good to see you, Ken.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION. Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. There had been an awful lot of rumblings just only a few weeks ago, that there were some people who said that there was some organization involving some al Qaeda operatives, that they may be coming in from various parts of the border. People from the outside coming in to bring with them violence. And it appears now in the early part of this investigation that there are now some links being made to terrorist groups.

Is this potentially the work of outsiders in Iraq?

POLLACK: It certainly is potentially the work of al Qaeda inside Iraq. I think that the evidence has been very clear that there are al Qaeda personnel moving into Iraq, and I don't think there's any question that they intend to do some harm there. Whether or not this is the work of al Qaeda, though, I will be honest with you, Fredricka, I think we have to keep a very open mind.

I am reminded of other terrorist investigations, attacks that happened even in this country. I remember when they blew up the building in Oklahoma City. There were all kinds of wild speculation, all kinds of early leads that turned out to be completely wrong, and that was in the United States, where U.S. authorities had all kinds of equipment and all kinds of personnel able to go in and start examining the site.

In a place like Najaf, Iraq, it is even harder to figure out how to do something, because they simply don't have the techniques, they don't have the personnel. They don't have the equipment to handle a crime scene the way we can here in the United States.

WHITFIELD: In fact, that's part of the big problem here, investigating this crime scene. Who would really be responsible for it? The coalition forces have made it very clear that they feel like their hands are tied. They really are up to here with too much to do. And then, of course, the Iraqi police forces, they don't have the means in which to conduct an investigation. So how in the world will anyone be able to get to the bottom of this investigation?

POLLACK: You are absolutely right, Fredricka. It's goings to be extraordinarily difficult. There is the possibility that someone will catch a lucky break, that the police in Najaf or local authorities in Najaf will pick up people who will confess to having done the deed and will be able to prove that in fact they were behind the attack.

That seems unlikely. It would take a real degree of luck for that to happen. The alternative is for U.S. intelligence operating inside Iraq to use its own sources, whether those are human sources, Iraqis who are talking to them, or technical sources, drones, various things that we can listen to, we can watch. They might be able to come up with something.

That too is a bit of a long shot. And what that gets to is the issue that we may never know. In fact, there's a pretty good likelihood that we will never know for certain who conducted this attack. And then, therefore, what becomes important is who the Shia in Najaf, who the Shia in Iraq believe conducted it, because that's where they're going to focus their anger.

FREDRICKA: Yes. And what is your gut feeling of the message being sent? We are talking about a nation 60 percent made up of Shia, and then targeted in all of this one of the most important and pivotal Shia mosques there being led by a very well respected cleric.

POLLACK: Right. And this is part of it, Baqir al-Hakim is an important or was an important Shia figure. But we need to be careful. Hakim was not a terribly popular figure.

He had a following among the Shia. Those people who followed him were very loyal. But most of the Shia didn't much care for him.

It's the fact that he was killed, the fact that he was assassinated and where he was assassinated that I think is having the greatest resonance. There are a lot of Shia who don't necessarily -- they didn't necessarily like Hakim, but they don't like the fact that he was assassinated and they want to know who did it.

They want to know if Sunnis did it. And if so, this is the kind of thing that you could start to see it sparking Sunni Shia violence, which is something we've not seen so far and that could get very dangerous. On the other hand, there has been all kinds of Shia violence, and if they find out that it was another Shia group, you could see them turn on that other Shia group.

WHITFIELD: So you see this as possibly a real springboard to some pretty ugly -- potentially ugly infighting or even a civil war, dare I say.

POLLACK: Yes. It's potentially a real problem. Again, you can't say that for certain. It's equally possible that over the course of time this will die out if it's not followed up.

In particular, if no one can really make a case that they know who was to blame for it, the anger might diffuse. But on the other hand, it's also the kind of thing that could trigger a much larger problem for the United States. And that's why this is such an important event.

WHITFIELD: All right. Ken Pollack, thanks very much. Always good to see you.

POLLACK: Thank you, Fredricka.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired August 30, 2003 - 14:03   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, turning now to developments in Iraq, the investigation in the deadly mosque bombing in Najaf has turned up possible links to al Qaeda. But no matter what investigators find in their probe of the mosque attack, many Iraqis are still blaming the U.S. Thousands of demonstrators hit the streets today in Baghdad, unhappy about their lack of safety and their need for various services.
CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us now from the White House with the Bush administration's response to the latest developments there -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, Fredricka, there's no response from the White House to the detention, the arrest of at least you said two Pakistanis who may have ties to al Qaeda, and then as many as 10 other people who have been detained. But the U.S. does firmly believe that these attacks are directed specifically at trying to block U.S. efforts to bring peace and democracy to the country.

It does seem that the targets are continuing to expand now beyond U.S. soldiers, beyond international aid workers to target Iraqis, like the cleric that was killed in yesterday's bombings. Iraqis who are helping the United States, who are cooperating. Obviously this tactic has had a chilling effect on such cooperation.

President Bush released a statement yesterday, a paper statement condemning the attack as a vicious act of terrorism, saying that it demonstrates the cruelty and desperation of the enemies of the Iraqi people. Mr. Bush said that the forces of terror must and will be defeated, and he promised U.S. help to that end in the investigation. FBI investigators are going to helping dig through the rubble to find clues -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Kathleen, on now to a focus on the Middle East, the latest violence there, particularly involving the Israeli killing of Hamas members. Any reaction coming from the White House? There are many critics who are saying, "What road map to peace?"

KOCH: The White House would not respond directly to this attack, but there have been several of them since the August 19 bus bombing, these retaliatory targeted attacks. And the U.S. response has pretty much been the same, not to condemn them but to say that Israel does have every right to defend itself, to respond, but it must keep in it mind the consequences of those actions and the effect that they will have of what remains of the road map to peace, though it is in tatters, I think one can easily say.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks very much, Kathleen Koch. The Bush administration's response to troubles in both regions of the Middle East and on in Iraq.

Now more from the scene in Najaf, Iraq. CNN's Ben Wedeman has been following developments after the deadly attack there -- Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Yes. At this point, Fredricka, the death toll from that attack officially stands at 125 dead, as well as more than 500 wounded. Now the latest development is that the Iraqi police here in Najaf are apparently detaining two men carrying Pakistani passports that they believe had some role in the bombing and the police officers say may have links to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.

No further confirmation on that. However, what is apparent though is that this bomb is beginning to create cracks in the American attempts to create something that would approximate stability here. One of the members of the U.S.-appointed governing council announced today he was suspending his membership in that council.

This man, Dr. Mohammed Bahad al-Alum (ph), a prominent Shiite politician, said he was suspending his membership in that council because that council itself had proved ineffectual in convincing the coalition and the American forces to take a more robust attitude toward reestablishing law and order in the chaotic period following the fall of Saddam Hussein.

So, as I said, that is one serious crack in this attempt to bring order to Iraq. The governing council was appointed in July by the chief U.S. administrator here, L. Paul Bremer. And the hopes was that this would put an Iraqi face on the coalition. And it appears that part of that Iraqi face is beginning to fall off -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well Ben, let's talk about the investigation, or what kind of assistance might come in the investigation as they do try to figure out who is responsible for this bombing. Where does anyone turn to be the lead on this investigation?

WEDEMAN: Well, they are rounding up, Fredricka, a lot of people around this city, and sometimes it doesn't appear as if they are likely suspects. The main criteria for arrest at this point seems to be anybody from another Arab country, anyone who is suspicious, anyone wearing clothing that is not ordinary for the inhabitants of Najaf, they're throwing a very wide net.

Now we are hearing, of course, that they are detaining two Pakistanis that may have some role in the bombing, that may have been -- had some sort of links to al Qaeda. But clearly the investigation is little more than 24 hours old. We have seen that U.S. troops or some U.S. officers have gone to visit the Iraqi police. They went to the building where people have been detained.

They may be questioning these people, but as I said, it's still very, very early in the investigation. But you can take it for granted that U.S. investigators will be involved and heavily involved, as well -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Ben Wedeman in Najaf, thank you very much.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Thousands now in the streets in Najaf, Iraq, taken to the streets as part of a three-day mourning after yesterday's bombing in Najaf, Iraq. Some conventional wisdom now that perhaps these attackers appear not to just be going after coalition forces, but now even attacking Iraqis, including some of their leaders and humanitarian workers.

What does all of this mean for the future of Iraq? Let's turn now to CNN analyst Ken Pollack of Washington's Brookings Institution. Good to see you, Ken.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION. Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. There had been an awful lot of rumblings just only a few weeks ago, that there were some people who said that there was some organization involving some al Qaeda operatives, that they may be coming in from various parts of the border. People from the outside coming in to bring with them violence. And it appears now in the early part of this investigation that there are now some links being made to terrorist groups.

Is this potentially the work of outsiders in Iraq?

POLLACK: It certainly is potentially the work of al Qaeda inside Iraq. I think that the evidence has been very clear that there are al Qaeda personnel moving into Iraq, and I don't think there's any question that they intend to do some harm there. Whether or not this is the work of al Qaeda, though, I will be honest with you, Fredricka, I think we have to keep a very open mind.

I am reminded of other terrorist investigations, attacks that happened even in this country. I remember when they blew up the building in Oklahoma City. There were all kinds of wild speculation, all kinds of early leads that turned out to be completely wrong, and that was in the United States, where U.S. authorities had all kinds of equipment and all kinds of personnel able to go in and start examining the site.

In a place like Najaf, Iraq, it is even harder to figure out how to do something, because they simply don't have the techniques, they don't have the personnel. They don't have the equipment to handle a crime scene the way we can here in the United States.

WHITFIELD: In fact, that's part of the big problem here, investigating this crime scene. Who would really be responsible for it? The coalition forces have made it very clear that they feel like their hands are tied. They really are up to here with too much to do. And then, of course, the Iraqi police forces, they don't have the means in which to conduct an investigation. So how in the world will anyone be able to get to the bottom of this investigation?

POLLACK: You are absolutely right, Fredricka. It's goings to be extraordinarily difficult. There is the possibility that someone will catch a lucky break, that the police in Najaf or local authorities in Najaf will pick up people who will confess to having done the deed and will be able to prove that in fact they were behind the attack.

That seems unlikely. It would take a real degree of luck for that to happen. The alternative is for U.S. intelligence operating inside Iraq to use its own sources, whether those are human sources, Iraqis who are talking to them, or technical sources, drones, various things that we can listen to, we can watch. They might be able to come up with something.

That too is a bit of a long shot. And what that gets to is the issue that we may never know. In fact, there's a pretty good likelihood that we will never know for certain who conducted this attack. And then, therefore, what becomes important is who the Shia in Najaf, who the Shia in Iraq believe conducted it, because that's where they're going to focus their anger.

FREDRICKA: Yes. And what is your gut feeling of the message being sent? We are talking about a nation 60 percent made up of Shia, and then targeted in all of this one of the most important and pivotal Shia mosques there being led by a very well respected cleric.

POLLACK: Right. And this is part of it, Baqir al-Hakim is an important or was an important Shia figure. But we need to be careful. Hakim was not a terribly popular figure.

He had a following among the Shia. Those people who followed him were very loyal. But most of the Shia didn't much care for him.

It's the fact that he was killed, the fact that he was assassinated and where he was assassinated that I think is having the greatest resonance. There are a lot of Shia who don't necessarily -- they didn't necessarily like Hakim, but they don't like the fact that he was assassinated and they want to know who did it.

They want to know if Sunnis did it. And if so, this is the kind of thing that you could start to see it sparking Sunni Shia violence, which is something we've not seen so far and that could get very dangerous. On the other hand, there has been all kinds of Shia violence, and if they find out that it was another Shia group, you could see them turn on that other Shia group.

WHITFIELD: So you see this as possibly a real springboard to some pretty ugly -- potentially ugly infighting or even a civil war, dare I say.

POLLACK: Yes. It's potentially a real problem. Again, you can't say that for certain. It's equally possible that over the course of time this will die out if it's not followed up.

In particular, if no one can really make a case that they know who was to blame for it, the anger might diffuse. But on the other hand, it's also the kind of thing that could trigger a much larger problem for the United States. And that's why this is such an important event.

WHITFIELD: All right. Ken Pollack, thanks very much. Always good to see you.

POLLACK: Thank you, Fredricka.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com